Piccolo reed revisited

[Elizabeth]

talk to me about the merits of piccolo reeds! (I already have a lmmm smaller box.)

Also, has anyone plowed ahead with new accordion despite needing a shoulder replacement in one shoulder and maybe, maybe not, rotator cuff repair of the other shoulder. Not to mention, a possible salvage procedure of the wrist? If i wait til everything is fixed ill be dead.

 

[Siegmund]

On a small non-cassotto box, I'd say the single biggest merit is extending your range by one octave. You might decide that you could use a 26- to 31-key instrument with an H reed in place of a 37- or 41-key one without.

The LMH sound is not so different from the LM sound as to be a major selling point all on its own, I don't think. The LH sound is distinctive, but may not be used much in the style of music you want to play if you are happy with an LMMM box now.

If you have cassotto it matters much more, I think, providing an in-tune out-of-cassotto reed.

 

[debra]

Besides "extending the range" already mentioned the most important use for the piccolo reeds is the LH register, whether you have cassotto or not. The difference between LM and LMH is larger on a cassotto than a non-cassotto accordion, but LH is very different from L on all accordions.
I find that MH is also used a lot, for added sharpness.
Generally there is a tendency towards milder tremolo. This also reduces the need for the MMM register. So generally, whether you have cassotto or not, with the reduced tremolo an LMMH accordion is more versatile than an LMMM accordion.

 

[saundersbp]

The LH sound is distinctive

I like the euphemism!

 

[Ventura]

the day of the all purpose accordion / accordion player is pretty much gone

nowadays people who take up accordion seem to have a specific genre in mind
they want to be a part of, and more often than not it is Ethnic of some sort
or fairly narrow in it's scope of discipline

the day of the Strolling musician in a major Cosmopolitan venue who could easily field
most any style or type of request on the fly is a fond memory for some, but
not practical today or even useful as there are few to none Gigs like that anymore

therefore, the LMMH General Purpose accordion is likewise fallen out of favor
for smaller, lighter, more ethnic sounding instruments which are handy and
very useful to the modern players

they say you shouldn't take a Knife to a Gunfight, and likewise you shouldn't
take a Musette LMMM box to a Rock and Roll party.. it just won't cut it..

if you are crazy like me, you feel and listen to a Box the first time..
well it can tell you what kind of Music or even a Song to play..
just like an infant Child or a Puppy will eventually somehow reveal
their name to you if you give it a little time and empathy..

i had a LMH Acmette once that i was fixing up to give my brother,
and after i finished the tuning and put it back together the final time,
it played "Crazy on You" with very little help from me.. there was no
choice or even conscious thought.. it just had to be played

so for me, well yeah i like the Piccolo reed, but i also like my LMMM
boxes too.. but then again i play/played every kind of gig imaginable
for every kind of party with just about every nationality on earth
represented over the decades, so i needed all those flavors of accordion

and my musette's have mostly been gentle, because old timers play fists full of chords
most every song every other heartbeat every other breath

but i do have one true French tuned LMMM for when i simply MUST play
with 1 or 2 fingers certain kinds of songs like Petit Waltz

so you really can't take a Piccolo reeded box to a Moulin Rouge
knife fight either !

once upon a time, when the Don sent for me to let me know
we had a 3 day weekend wedding coming up in the Mountains,
he was asking me to come and handle it as a friend, and money
was never discussed (you would never dare ask for as much
as he would generously slip into your pocket after the party was over)

and very very good LMMH accordion was the necessity, as well
as a lighter stroller for backup and around the Pool in the daytime

those kinds of people and parties passed from existence long ago,
though i did one very lavish Italian Wedding in Baltimore this century
at one of the old mansions near Loyola.. a wonderful all day all night affair
where the guests were bussed in from the Hotels the Family had provided..

what was the Gola created for if not such events as these ?

ahh.. the Piccolo Reed.. LMMH..

the good old days

but not completely gone.. Joe's Son called and asked me to come to Cedar Knoll
and play for an afternoon party this july to celebrate his Dad's 90th Birthday..

we never mentioned Money.. no need to..

i will be there and play as if i had no arthritis for an afternoon..
all the old songs.. i will sing in Italian for them.. i will play
some recent winners from San Remo.. and i will play and sing
Route66 for like the millionth time

probably do a little Sinatra too

Ciao

Ventura

 

[Elizabeth]

On a small non-cassotto box, I'd say the single biggest merit is extending your range by one octave. You might decide that you could use a 26- to 31-key instrument with an H reed in place of a 37- or 41-key one without.

The LMH sound is not so different from the LM sound as to be a major selling point all on its own, I don't think. The LH sound is distinctive, but may not be used much in the style of music you want to play if you are happy with an LMMM box now.

If you have cassotto it matters much more, I think, providing an in-tune out-of-cassotto reed.

On a small non-cassotto box, I'd say the single biggest merit is extending your range by one octave. You might decide that you could use a 26- to 31-key instrument with an H reed in place of a 37- or 41-key one without.

The LMH sound is not so different from the LM sound as to be a major selling point all on its own, I don't think. The LH sound is distinctive, but may not be used much in the style of music you want to play if you are happy with an LMMM box now.

If you have cassotto it matters much more, I think, providing an in-tune out-of-cassotto reed.

Siegmund,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply.
I really appreciate your useful commemts and your helpful input!

 

[Elizabeth]

Besides "extending the range" already mentioned the most important use for the piccolo reeds is the LH register, whether you have cassotto or not. The difference between LM and LMH is larger on a cassotto than a non-cassotto accordion, but LH is very different from L on all accordions.
I find that MH is also used a lot, for added sharpness.
Generally there is a tendency towards milder tremolo. This also reduces the need for the MMM register. So generally, whether you have cassotto or not, with the reduced tremolo an LMMH accordion is more versatile than an LMMM accordion.

Paul,
Thank you so much for your reply.
I really appreciate your very helpful and useful comments. Fun to read comments from people who know stuff, and have experience and technical info to share.

 

[Elizabeth]

the day of the all purpose accordion / accordion player is pretty much gone

nowadays people who take up accordion seem to have a specific genre in mind
they want to be a part of, and more often than not it is Ethnic of some sort
or fairly narrow in it's scope of discipline

the day of the Strolling musician in a major Cosmopolitan venue who could easily field
most any style or type of request on the fly is a fond memory for some, but
not practical today or even useful as there are few to none Gigs like that anymore

therefore, the LMMH General Purpose accordion is likewise fallen out of favor
for smaller, lighter, more ethnic sounding instruments which are handy and
very useful to the modern players

they say you shouldn't take a Knife to a Gunfight, and likewise you shouldn't
take a Musette LMMM box to a Rock and Roll party.. it just won't cut it..

if you are crazy like me, you feel and listen to a Box the first time..
well it can tell you what kind of Music or even a Song to play..
just like an infant Child or a Puppy will eventually somehow reveal
their name to you if you give it a little time and empathy..

i had a LMH Acmette once that i was fixing up to give my brother,
and after i finished the tuning and put it back together the final time,
it played "Crazy on You" with very little help from me.. there was no
choice or even conscious thought.. it just had to be played

so for me, well yeah i like the Piccolo reed, but i also like my LMMM
boxes too.. but then again i play/played every kind of gig imaginable
for every kind of party with just about every nationality on earth
represented over the decades, so i needed all those flavors of accordion

and my musette's have mostly been gentle, because old timers play fists full of chords
most every song every other heartbeat every other breath

but i do have one true French tuned LMMM for when i simply MUST play
with 1 or 2 fingers certain kinds of songs like Petit Waltz

so you really can't take a Piccolo reeded box to a Moulin Rouge
knife fight either !

once upon a time, when the Don sent for me to let me know
we had a 3 day weekend wedding coming up in the Mountains,
he was asking me to come and handle it as a friend, and money
was never discussed (you would never dare ask for as much
as he would generously slip into your pocket after the party was over)

and very very good LMMH accordion was the necessity, as well
as a lighter stroller for backup and around the Pool in the daytime

those kinds of people and parties passed from existence long ago,
though i did one very lavish Italian Wedding in Baltimore this century
at one of the old mansions near Loyola.. a wonderful all day all night affair
where the guests were bussed in from the Hotels the Family had provided..

what was the Gola created for if not such events as these ?

ahh.. the Piccolo Reed.. LMMH..

the good old days

but not completely gone.. Joe's Son called and asked me to come to Cedar Knoll
and play for an afternoon party this july to celebrate his Dad's 90th Birthday..

we never mentioned Money.. no need to..

i will be there and play as if i had no arthritis for an afternoon..
all the old songs.. i will sing in Italian for them.. i will play
some recent winners from San Remo.. and i will play and sing
Route66 for like the millionth time

probably do a little Sinatra too

Ciao

Ventura

Ventura,
Thank you tor your long and interesting post! You have things to say for sure.
It was poetic and philosophical…i enjoyed the reading and the wisdom and the historical points of view you shared. Thank you.

 

[debra]

Reading through all these replies it's clear that the only true versatile accordion configuration is LMMMH which I used for quite a few years. And I'm talking about LMMMH with choices between different combinations of MM in the mix, not the crippled Hohner accordions (including Gola) that only have registers using one M or three M's, not two. Yes they are very versatile, but the fifth voice does add to the size and weight.
I used to think about 4 versus 5 voice accordions just as a choice that influenced size and weight, until I discovered that by sticking to LMMH and starting to play CBA accordions with many more notes became possible. So I now have LMMH with up to 64 notes.
Hohner did make 5 voice CBA accordions with 56 notes (like my Artiste X S) but that is where size and weight (especially weight) come into play again. 18kg is a bit much to carry around and to play. Thankfully apart from some areas where Amsterdam, Irish or Scottish tuning are required you can now get away with LMMH for almost everything.

 

[John M]

. . . not the crippled Hohner accordions (including Gola) that only have registers using one M or three M's, not two. . . .

I like the shift [+M, -M] (M. Vivace) on my Excelsior 960. It is a very sweet Tremolo.
There is also a shift for MMM and [M, M+].

 

[debra]

I like the shift [+M, -M] (M. Vivace) on my Excelsior 960. It is a very sweet Tremolo.
There is also a shift for MMM and [M, M+].

I have seen (and heard) an Excelsior with that "musette vivace" register... that is definitely a register I can do without except when M- is tuned at 0 cents deviation or very close to that.

 

[John M]

I have seen (and heard) an Excelsior with that "musette vivace" register... that is definitely a register I can do without except when M- is tuned at 0 cents deviation or very close to that.

That would be the [M, M+] register, where M is tuned at 0 cents that is on the 960. As you've posted before, you don't care for a lot of Tremolo (musette). The musette tuning on my 960 is not that extreme. I think some on this forum describe extreme musette as "nose bleed. My 960 is nothing like that. I haven't heard other 960's, so I can't compare.

From what I see on this forum each accordion has it's own "personality" since a lot of the tonal characteristics are a result of the craftsman assembling the accordions. From my experience with Hammond B3 organs built from 1955-1975, many have different "personalities" and this is on an electro-mechanical organ that can't go out of tune. However, there are were still craftsman/technicians doing the assembly that resulted in different tonal quality of the various B3's built during that 20 year time span.

 

[Ventura]

cool.. you have a 960 too

mine is tuned unison.. like the lightest musette setting on the Roland basically..
you can't really hear any warble it just has presence, but not like chorus or flanging

i feel the Excelsior 960 tonality is basically present in the Roland accordions, you just need
to tweak it a lot to bring it out cleanly

 

[John M]

Yes Ventura, I am really enjoying making fine adjustments on my 8X. Here's what I do with the PC editor for adjustments. I Use the "Tone Selection", "Effects" "Sound Edit" and "Controller" tabs in the Editor. I do not use the "MFX Edit" or the "MFX Control" tabs. Am I missing some important features by not using these? What does the MFX acronym stand for? If you could comment on the "tools" I am using, I would appreciate it.

 

[Ventura]

yeah i went out and looked at the editor and maybe the fr4x pages
and tabs have different names ? i didn't see an MFX page

i probably will look at the 8x manual when i get a chance...

what i was thinking is sending you the italian set i am working on
and you could re-name it .st8 and try and load it up.. i have heard
the same-location stuff will be accepted any different settings are just rejected,
but that way you could hear the 7 musette variations and look at the
reed settings i used and the FX settings to get an idea of what i am doing

if your MFX stuff is the detailed editor area for FX actually there are
some things you CAN use those settings for (they had that even back
on the FR7)

the trick with those control sections is, while we were given no actual
EQ control or settings over the basic "reedset" waveforms, you can actually
tweak some of the FX settings with a result of them acting on the sound
much like an EQ.. it takes a lot of pushing those controls around to find
ones that will curve the tone in a way you like,

 

[John M]

What are FX settings? I can’t find anything on “FX” in the PC Editor or in the index in the 8X owner’s manual.

See the attachment below for screen shots of the “MFX Edit” and “MFX Control” pages. Is the “MFX Edit” page where I can do the “tweaking” you are referring to?

 

[debra]

That would be the [M, M+] register, where M is tuned at 0 cents that is on the 960. As you've posted before, you don't care for a lot of Tremolo (musette). The musette tuning on my 960 is not that extreme. I think some on this forum describe extreme musette as "nose bleed. My 960 is nothing like that. I haven't heard other 960's, so I can't compare.
...

When the M- register is tuned the same as the M register then [M-, M+] will be like [M, M+] but without the cassotto in the mix. That gives a very different sound. And you can have a dry [M-, M] register as well as a wet [M, M+] register (both with cassotto in the mix).
I never quite understood why Hohner only offered M and MMM on their instruments that had MMM, from a lowly Verdi V up to a the highest-end Gola 459... They had so much potential in the accordion that wasn't used.

Sadly the Excelsior with "musette vivace" register had so much tremolo that I would call it the "headache galore" register. But of course it's a matter of tuning and it could become a very nice musette register that offers a mild tremolo without raising the average pitch of the notes.

 

[JerryPH]

what was the Gola created for if not such events as these ?
ahh.. the Piccolo Reed.. LMMH..

Let’s take it even a notch higher.. the piccolo reed of a 5/5.

I love the 5/5 sound, I think pretty much everyone knows that.

My Morino is a 5/5 as is my Imperator and the Beltuna as well, and the last 2 have a sordino (and all Cassotto too), that when used, effectively mutes that high reed and gives me kind of a 4/5 sound, just richer. The Gola has this too… so when talking options 5/5 does it all and more, especially if you have a sordino of some kind.

Thing about Gola accordions is that near 90% of them are the model 414 which are 4/5 and the last 10 percent are divided up 6% 4/5 Free Bass models and and the last 4% are the 5/5 Free Bass and were less seen because they are heavy for most, but that gives the most sonic options of anything… not that the weight would matter to me if someone here has one they are thinking of getting rid of… lol

So to get the one that gives the most sonic options, you pay for it not only with more money, but more weight. Given the choice, I 100% lean the direction of a solid 5/5. Today I played both the Beltuna and Morino, both 5/5 and they could not be more different… I may discuss those differences one day on a video once I get my Imperator back So I can throw that one in to the mix.

One thing, it’s not like I use the piccolo reed alone a lot, that’s not the main draw, it’s the extra brightness that shines when that reed is active, but that whole high range is ready to sing like a little bird for the times you do want it all alone… so it’s a bit like a gun… it is nice to have but not always needed, which is way better than needing it and not having it.

The big question… are you ready to pay the price for that 5/5?

 

[JerryPH]

I think some on this forum describe extreme musette as "nose bleed

Lol… some call that the Scottish tuning, ugh, I find it horrid and painful, with the exception of a few very specific Irish/Scottish songs.

 

[Dingo40]

talk to me about the merits of piccolo reeds! (I already have a lmmm smaller box.)

Also, has anyone plowed ahead with new accordion despite needing a shoulder replacement in one shoulder and maybe, maybe not, rotator cuff repair of the other shoulder. Not to mention, a possible salvage procedure of the wrist? If i wait til everything is fixed ill be dead.

Under these circumstances, I would be tempted to swap my accordion ambitions for some kind of free standing organ!