Piano Accordion For Beginners.

[Anyanka]

I don't have time today to go through and edit out all the unnecessary personal comments in this thread - please stop sniping at each other now!

In order for this thread to be useful to anyone, we need to clarify which version of the book is misleading, and ideally have a photo or scan of the 'offending' page, please. I don't see that as an attack on Karen Tweed (whom I know personally and admire greatly) or Dave Mallinson. As I said before, one of the books is very useful - the other less so. This forum does a valuable job by helping its users discuss the best learning aids. Let's keep it that way.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

I began this thread with the honest intention of alerting people to the possibility that this book is potentially misleading, and hoped that my experiences with it may serve others well.

Karen Tweed may well be the nicest woman the world has ever known, but I seriously doubt that she is infallible. My post was not a personal attack on her, but it has attracted a number of personal attacks on me.

All I said is that the keyboard chart for 72 Bass instruments did not correspond to my keyboard, and that my accordion tutor agreed. This fact caused me to play wrong notes, believing that the chart must be right, and that the fault must be mine.

Some said that any expert could have seen the problem in a minute, but the book, according to its title, is for ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS, who would not have the experience to spot the problem. Luckily, I happen to be a reasonable Clarinet player, and was eventually able to work out that the failure was not of my making.

This, as previously stated, was confirmed by my accordion tutor. The chart did not relate in any way to my Chanson, nor did it relate to a 72 Bass Bugari owned by my tutor. If anyone on here thinks that this makes me a liar, I feel sorry for them.

Stephen Hawkins.

 

[knobby]

That's enough!

Play nice please.

 

[dak]

[Content deleted for not complying with instruction to 'play nicely']

Just for the record: not intentionally so. This was supposed to be explanatory. However, if a neutral party does not see it that way, I'd hardly have fared better with the intended recipient.

So thanks for the save.

 

[bocsa]

There also does not seem to be any point in continuing this before the diagrams in question are actually available for discussion(...)

That point has been made several times but as ever, folks are are happy to continue knit fog ...based on the stately home pattern Zod Hall.

 

[sjr2]

There are two diagrams in TPA-AB that could be the ones under discussion:

Page 5 - the treble keyboard:
left>

Page 11 - The left hand buttons:
left>

Note that both are labelled as mirror images...

Best regards
S

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Thank you Steve; that appears to be the one.

The diagram for the trebles shows the top key to be a "B", and that the second block of sharps has three keys.

My instrument's top key is a "G", and the first two blocks of sharps have only two keys each.

I don't think that my instrument is unique, indeed my tutor's 72 Bass Bugari has exactly the same keyboard layout as my Chanson.

I have tried to help students by pointing out this potentially misleading chart, only to be abused and vilified for my honest attempts. I may have more to say on this matter at a later date.

Stephen Hawkins.

 

[dak]

Stephen, I recommend that you look more closely. The range for the 72-bass here is shown as G3 (top of diagram, lowest sounding note) to E6. Please trace the third vertical line from the right, the one labelled as "72 bass", to both its upper and lower end. You are confused because both the "96 bass" and the "120 bass" line end at the same point at the top of the diagram, namely F3 as the lowest-sounding note.

P.S.: I realize that the temptation to post additional comments not providing further factual insights about the diagram in question must be rather large. I think we are all better off without further comments not focusing on the diagram. Thanks.

 

[spacetrakker]

Thank you Steve; that appears to be the one.

The diagram for the trebles shows the top key to be a B, and that the second block of sharps has three keys.

My instruments top key is a G, and the first two blocks of sharps have only two keys each.

I dont think that my instrument is unique, indeed my tutors 72 Bass Bugari has exactly the same keyboard layout as my Chanson.

I have tried to help students by pointing out this potentially misleading chart, only to be abused and vilified for my honest attempts. <COLOR color=#FF0000> I may have more to say on this matter at a later date.

Stephen Hawkins.

May I respectfully suggest that you let it rest.

Cheers,
John

 

[knobby]

Dak is correct and you have misinterpreted the diagram. Heres a copy with all other lines removed.



I think the only other comment should be an admission that you were wrong.

 

[dak]

While we can likely agree that this diagram does give the rather common 34-key range for a 72-bass piano accordion after all, there may still be a bit of a takeaway for Karen if someone who knows her might want to pass it on. Obviously, don't print out this thread: it's a better example for something else.

The takeaway is about diagrams and visuals. In a crowded line diagram like this, it is likely a bad idea to let lines merge since people easily lose count then. If you take a look at how the author did the the bass button diagram, you'll see that the outer lines for the 48-bass and the 24-bass rectangle are kept completely separate (and even separated by a white and gray pattern) even though they include the same buttons on the sides.

Particularly bad for merging lines are right angles since we are used to not keeping count then (a corner is the meeting of three right angles). I think that if the 120 and 96 bass lines would not have been merged in this manner in the diagram (even though this is mathematically and logically correct), this whole discussion might not have happened. And we can probably all agree that that would have been a good thing.

If you really want to have the lines end on the same spot so that one sees at a glance that the lower range is identical, there is another possible solution: make one of the lines slanted so that it ends at the same point as the other but does not join it.

I was tempted to dig up similar illustrations from my own literature, but really: the bass button diagram that has also been posted already does an excellent job at demonstrating how to keep lines and ranges well-separated and distinguishable even in a crowded diagram.

 

[george garside]

To give this seemingly never ending thread a bit of light hearted 'drift' why does anybody need a chart of what each size of box has on the treble end. Large numbers of those new to the box have at sometime dabbled with a piano keyboard eg piano, electic keyboard, organ, molidica or whatever and are therefore aware of both the linear and repetitive progression of the keys. Most will also be aware that the note C is the white key before 2 black keys( and putting aside the black keys) they can count CDEFGABC and then realise that the thing carries on ad infinite in exactly the same way until the end of the particular keyboard is reached.

Those who already read music will then be able to prod the appropriate key as per the dots. Those playing by ear will do it by ear. In other words all you need to know is one octave to do the rest due to the repiticious nature of the layout. You don't need to be told where it starts or ends as you can't go beyond these points unless you can play your private parts or your nose!

Continental chromatics are similarly repiticious so only one octavesworth of knowledge is required. I would however argue that the newcomer to the British Chromatic (BCC#) requires a full keyboard chart as they have 2 notes per button and te sequence changes in different octaves and there are no black notes to act as navigational aides.

george

 

[dak]

To give this seemingly never ending thread a bit of light hearted 'drift' why does anybody need a chart of what each size of box has on the treble end.

Because the book was touted to be for "Absolute Beginners". Once you assume a basic knowledge of music and music theory, the book becomes 10 pages smaller and consequently more affordable. So I am sympathetic to the wish of having diagrams accessible even to people who would voluntarily choose accordion as their first instrument. While ranges indeed do differ, they don't differ as dramatically as the diagram appeared to Stephen (who did mention being able to salvage the situation by previous music knowledge, but not everybody may be as lucky).

 

[Morne]

Those playing by ear will do it by ear. In other words all you need to know is one octave to do the rest due to the repiticious nature of the layout. You don't need to be told where it starts or ends as you can't go beyond these points unless you can play your private parts or your nose!

Also, let's hope there aren't any by-nose or by-private part players here!

 

[dak]

Those playing by ear will do it by ear. In other words all you need to know is one octave to do the rest due to the repiticious nature of the layout. You dont need to be told where it starts or ends as you cant go beyond these points unless you can play your private parts or your nose!

Also, lets hope there arent any by-nose or by-private part players here!

Well, we are talking about piano accordion players here, and the next accessible body parts behind such a capsized piano are the knees and the eyes anyway. Definitely better suited as body armor than a CBA.