Non-converter free bass, and compact with cassotto?

[tcabot]

@stickista
Very logical chromatic layout (left side is similar to moschino actually, but nowhere near to moschino's ergonomics). Easy to play very simple melodies right from the start.

This was my first time handling any bando... I wanted to try one to see how it compares to an fb cba.
Very different instruments.
My very first impressions are as follows:

Pros:
1) There's certainly a "wow" factor making music on a mysterious-looking antique box that's about as rare as hen's teeth.
2) It's very light and easy to handle. I'm not sure I'd go as far as "elegant" - the smaller Kusserow is 26x27cm and could benefit from being reduced to something like 24x26. But it's close to being elegant, and the handling characteristics are far superior to an enormous 5-voice double cassotto extended range CBA that feels like putting a steinway on your lap (remember to lift with your knees, not your back).
3) There's a distinct difference between the tone of LHS and RHS voices, giving lots of creative options.
4) Sufficient range for most things I'd like to play.
5) The timbre coming out of this AA is divine. I haven't heard anything like it from an accordion.
6) Mother of Pearl buttons.

Cons:
1) I am not that convinced that playing a perpendicular accordion makes much sense.
2) Hands are anchored and severely limited. Easier for very simple stuff, but I reckon the skill requirements for slightly more advanced stuff will rise exponentially. Pretty much the same layout (Kusserow bass vs Moschino) is a lot more ergonomic on the accordion LHS. B-griff CBA+Moschino is a lot more intuitive than Kusserow's layouts.
3) Bellows control completely different from an accordion. Not necessarily better or worse, but definitely a new skill to learn.
4) This particular box is still equipped with leathers that look like they are from early 1930s, when it was made. It's hard to believe that it's still playable and broadly in tune (!!!). Also the compression is surprisingly good for age, but far from perfect.
Mind you, despite a dire need for an overhaul, the tone is great and the voices are still very responsive.

Had it not been for the timbre, I would have written it off as a "nice toy to have" in addition to a fb CBA, but the timbre got me very excited & interested in exploring more. The initial impression is that this wee box has "more tone" in its two voices than my Excelsior with its 5 double cassotto voices in the right and two in the left.

I'll clean the reeds, re-valve, spot tune, try to improve the compression and then see if the tone magic is still there and see how it compares to my accordions. Hard to come to any conclusions now.

 

[stickista]

@stickista
Very logical chromatic layout (left side is similar to moschino actually, but nowhere near to moschino's ergonomics). Easy to play very simple melodies right from the start.

This was my first time handling any bando... I wanted to try one to see how it compares to an fb cba.
Very different instruments.
My very first impressions are as follows:

Pros:
1) There's certainly a "wow" factor making music on a mysterious-looking antique box that's about as rare as hen's teeth.
2) It's very light and easy to handle. I'm not sure I'd go as far as "elegant" - the smaller Kusserow is 26x27cm and could benefit from being reduced to something like 24x26. But it's close to being elegant, and the handling characteristics are far superior to an enormous 5-voice double cassotto extended range CBA that feels like putting a steinway on your lap (remember to lift with your knees, not your back).
3) There's a distinct difference between the tone of LHS and RHS voices, giving lots of creative options.
4) Sufficient range for most things I'd like to play.
5) The timbre coming out of this AA is divine. I haven't heard anything like it from an accordion.
6) Mother of Pearl buttons.

Cons:
1) I am not that convinced that playing a perpendicular accordion makes much sense.
2) Hands are anchored and severely limited. Easier for very simple stuff, but I reckon the skill requirements for slightly more advanced stuff will rise exponentially. Pretty much the same layout (Kusserow bass vs Moschino) is a lot more ergonomic on the accordion LHS. B-griff CBA+Moschino is a lot more intuitive than Kusserow's layouts.
3) Bellows control completely different from an accordion. Not necessarily better or worse, but definitely a new skill to learn.
4) This particular box is still equipped with leathers that look like they are from early 1930s, when it was made. It's hard to believe that it's still playable and broadly in tune (!!!). Also the compression is surprisingly good for age, but far from perfect.
Mind you, despite a dire need for an overhaul, the tone is great and the voices are still very responsive.

Had it not been for the timbre, I would have written it off as a "nice toy to have" in addition to a fb CBA, but the timbre got me very excited & interested in exploring more. The initial impression is that this wee box has "more tone" in its two voices than my Excelsior with its 5 double cassotto voices in the right and two in the left.

I'll clean the reeds, re-valve, spot tune, try to improve the compression and then see if the tone magic is still there and see how it compares to my accordions. Hard to come to any conclusions now.

Check the conversation I just sent you if you want me to send you a great pdf on bando technique I found…

What’s different from accordion is that you use gravity to work the bellows on bando, not your arms. The Cabezales (boxes on either side of the bellows) rest in your knees at the junction with the bellows, and in general, you open the bellows by closing your knees, letting the Cabezales fall outward, then close by opening your knees and lifting the Cabezales a bit and letting them fall towards each other as you bring your knees back together. Easier than it sounds.
Even standing players like Piazzolla do this, by putting one foot on a bench and balancing the middle of the bellows in the knee. Then they let the cabezales fall on opening, following the U shaped bellows, and then they lift them up to start the closing.
I had shoulder problems until I learned this.
Here’s a good example by Paolo Russo…
Its also why you see many players play mainly on the opening. Let gravity work the opening the using the air valve to easily and quickly close the bellows before playing again.

Also, it sometimes helps to remember that the instrument was originally designed as a portable church organ, and while some things may not sound appropriate on it, other things (eg bach) sound amazing on it.

 

[stickista]

An even better example of bellows being controlled by the legs…

 

[Dingo40]

How are the bandoneon and chemnitzer different?
I can see what you mean about the bellows action.

 

[tcabot]

designed as a portable church organ

And it sounds like one! I actively dislike the LM register on the accordion, but here there seems to be something different going on sound wise. You just want to draw the notes out and let them sound, filling the room around you.

Would be interesting to listen to one with MM voices instead of LM.

 

[stickista]

And it sounds like one! I actively dislike the LM register on the accordion, but here there seems to be something different going on sound wise. You just want to draw the notes out and let them sound, filling the room around you.

Would be interesting to listen to one with MM voices instead of LM.

LM with zinc reedplates is the real sound. “Bandoneon” setting on an accordion is not the same.
My black CBA bandoneon is MM with TaM accordion reeds (was… recently had it changed to LM. MM Didn’t really cut it.)
My wood grained CBA is the real deal sonically.
The other thing is that the ‘normal” bandoneon layout results in very distinctive voicings that don’t necessarily lie well in alternate layouts like K. or my CBA. I have to be careful about how I voice if I want a real bando sound. Then again, I don’t play a ton of Tango.
If I was 20 again, I’d probably learn real bandoneon layout. Its not easy but boy does it sound great.

 

[Walker]

@stickista
Very logical chromatic layout (left side is similar to moschino actually, but nowhere near to moschino's ergonomics). Easy to play very simple melodies right from the start.

This was my first time handling any bando... I wanted to try one to see how it compares to an fb cba.
Very different instruments.
My very first impressions are as follows:

Pros:
1) There's certainly a "wow" factor making music on a mysterious-looking antique box that's about as rare as hen's teeth.
2) It's very light and easy to handle. I'm not sure I'd go as far as "elegant" - the smaller Kusserow is 26x27cm and could benefit from being reduced to something like 24x26. But it's close to being elegant, and the handling characteristics are far superior to an enormous 5-voice double cassotto extended range CBA that feels like putting a steinway on your lap (remember to lift with your knees, not your back).
3) There's a distinct difference between the tone of LHS and RHS voices, giving lots of creative options.
4) Sufficient range for most things I'd like to play.
5) The timbre coming out of this AA is divine. I haven't heard anything like it from an accordion.
6) Mother of Pearl buttons.

Cons:
1) I am not that convinced that playing a perpendicular accordion makes much sense.
2) Hands are anchored and severely limited. Easier for very simple stuff, but I reckon the skill requirements for slightly more advanced stuff will rise exponentially. Pretty much the same layout (Kusserow bass vs Moschino) is a lot more ergonomic on the accordion LHS. B-griff CBA+Moschino is a lot more intuitive than Kusserow's layouts.
3) Bellows control completely different from an accordion. Not necessarily better or worse, but definitely a new skill to learn.
4) This particular box is still equipped with leathers that look like they are from early 1930s, when it was made. It's hard to believe that it's still playable and broadly in tune (!!!). Also the compression is surprisingly good for age, but far from perfect.
Mind you, despite a dire need for an overhaul, the tone is great and the voices are still very responsive.

Had it not been for the timbre, I would have written it off as a "nice toy to have" in addition to a fb CBA, but the timbre got me very excited & interested in exploring more. The initial impression is that this wee box has "more tone" in its two voices than my Excelsior with its 5 double cassotto voices in the right and two in the left.

I'll clean the reeds, re-valve, spot tune, try to improve the compression and then see if the tone magic is still there and see how it compares to my accordions. Hard to come to any conclusions now.

Congratulations tcabot. Bandoneon sounds very nice and will be a lot of fun to learn I am sure. Mind and get a step so you can assume the leg-up-adventurer-looking-into-the-distance pose. Oh and try to keep the bellows up off the floor, no one wants to see saggy bellows.

 

[debra]

A chromatic bandoneon is certainly an interesting "new" instrument to try. But I would only attempt it when one with C-system can be seen for sale at a reasonable price. (Victoria makes them, probably among others, and Galliano plays one.) The (non-Geuns) C-system bandoneons still have many notes that are not within the C system, but at least three rows are.

 

[tcabot]

I'd be surprised if reed plate material made a big difference. I have aluminium, not zinc.
The reeds are different size and shape to the accordion, but not too dissimilar to trad bayans. A quick inspection under the hood reveals that the reed chambers are much bigger than accordion (as they should be), because there is enough space in the box for them. But the biggest difference are the sound holes. Accordion has one small hole per chamber per reed pair. My bando has got L and M reed chambers converging into common space, which then opens up into a single oversized slot of a soundhole.
My guess is that this acts as a frequency filter, producing this completely unique timbre.
But I'll keep poking around. This old bando sure needs some TLC.

 

[Tom]

How are the bandoneon and chemnitzer different?
I can see what you mean about the bellows action.

Different layout of notes on both left and right hand. Bandoneon probably has bigger, and/or more reeds.

My first purchased accordion was a 4 bass organetto at age 55+. Should have just kept to that, avoided all this piano/cba hardship. Got a "finto" cba coming soon. Oh no.

 

[tcabot]

Mind and get a step so you can assume the leg-up-adventurer-looking-into-the-distance pose.

I always thought that bando players were just posing a lot in their videos "Look at me, I'm playing an instrument you never even heard of". But now I know that the timbre just consumes you when you start caressing the pearls.

Not saying that I'll seriously start learning it instead of the accordion, but I'm just happy that I got a chance to try it and see what the instrument is all about. Ideally, I'd play stradella+B-griff; Moschino + B-griff and bando (chromatic or even bisonoric, if I could go back in time with stickista), but for the foreseeable future I'll hardly have enough time even for one instrument. So it's good to try them all side by side and see which one really speaks to me.
I'm not suggesting any equivalence between the accordion and the bando: they feel and sound like completely different instruments. A bit like a guitar and a mandolin: both have strings and frets, but that's where the similarities end.

I'll probably create a separate thread for the Kusserow to stop spamming in this one. Thanks for tolerating me.

 

[Walker]

My first purchased accordion was a 4 bass organetto at age 55+. Should have just kept to that, avoided all this piano/cba hardship. Got a "finto" cba coming soon. Oh no.

Tom, you Wisconsin guys have it going-on with your dinky (BrE. of an object attractively small and neat) organetto's and Chunky Chimnitzers. I don't really know much about finto cbas, but if you like it, then I'll try to like it too!

Hey buddy, sorry to hear piano/cba is giving you hardship. These instruments can be demanding, I know all about it. I just figure that's part of the game, so play music that's isn't too difficult. Keep the music simple and the instrument will cut you some slack. If it's any use, CBA is a lot more helpful than the piano keyboard... PA doesn't give a hoot for the person playing it! CBA is kinder for comfortable stretches, reduced hand movement. However, CBA does call for serious accuracy in finger placement... you can't have everything I guess.
​

By the way how's the transition going Tom... are you still a Polka King or have you become a fully fledged Jazz & More Artist?

Ideally, I'd play stradella+B-griff; Moschino + B-griff and bando (chromatic or even bisonoric

That's a wonderful sentence, and spoken like a true accordion geek. Bravo tcabot!

 

[tcabot]

That's a wonderful sentence, and spoken like a true accordion geek.

Hey, as long as it's not a melodeon, right.

 

[Tom]

Walker said:

"By the way how's the transition going Tom... are you still a Polka King or have you become a fully fledged Jazz & More Artist?"

Well, indeed the challenge of piano accordion is fun, and most of my life is accidentals anyway. Been tough for accordion playing generally this summer, for a number of reasons. Hopefully fall will be better.

 

[losthobos]

play music that's isn't too difficult. Keep the music simple and the instrument will cut you some slack.​

Less is More

 

[saundersbp]

I am wondering if what you want can be custom made? If you contacted Bugari, for example, I wonder if they would make an existing converter model with just free bass. Of course, I may be saying this because of my lack of knowledge on accordion design, but I would think it would be possible???

Yes it can indeed (I've been down this road) but there is a massive premium on anything custom or a one off so it's absolutely not worth it from a financial point of view. Larger freebass only accordions are not standard production sadly.

Better to go with something the big companies makes guzillions of eg Pigini 42b or Bugari 380 and just keep the converter fixed to freebass if you want something more financially sensible....
These sort of modest converter instruments seem to have the least depreciation on them too compared to the posher offerings so a solid investment.

 

[Walker]

The Pigini Convertor 55B/De Luxe is the highest I would venture up the Pigini tree. They look high quality, solid, compact and light. It's just 1 model above what I already play, but I'd say it's as good as I could ever need. Some people are shocked at having only 87 buttons/46 notes, but I think that's just right. Plus Pigini's converter mechanisms are said to be best in the business, though perhaps other brands might have the edge tonally.​

 

[JerryPH]

One like this?:

Wow, nice!

 

[Walker]

On paper I liked the 55/B De Luxe. On YouTube... erm less so. Thanks Jerry, you've just saved me about 14K.

Hey buddy, would you do me another small favour? Would you keep a look out for a 1964 Victoria W420V in mint condition and identical in every way to Richard Galliano's.

 

[tcabot]

identical in every way to Richard Galliano's

Just ask Richard.
He's got other accordions, so you should be able to come to an agreement about the sale.