• If you haven't done so already, please add a location to your profile. This helps when people are trying to assist you, suggest resources, etc. Thanks

my experience with G#-E in the LH

Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Location
Sweden
Hi folks!
I had an experience yesterday: I practiced a tune with what I had called a big jump in the LF. It really felt like a big jump in the past. One part of the tune has the following chords: E-F#m-G#-E. I found that the G#-E was a big jump but is not anymore. I tried to do a big jump yesterday but ended up on G#-A instead.
I had told myself to do a big jump and it worked in the past. Nowadays it just messes things up. A big jump is longer nowadays.
What are your experience with this? Can certain strategies be bad when you get better at something?
and does anyone know the theory behind this progression (which is in the key of E)?
 

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
3,898
Reaction score
757
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
The more you practice playing the more you develop what is sometimes called "muscle memory". Your brain learns which instructions to give to your arm/hand to reach a certain position. It's a bit like your ability to close your eyes, then move your index finger (left or right shouldn't matter) to the tip of your nose and reach exactly that point every time.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Location
Sweden
The more you practice playing the more you develop what is sometimes called "muscle memory". Your brain learns which instructions to give to your arm/hand to reach a certain position. It's a bit like your ability to close your eyes, then move your index finger (left or right shouldn't matter) to the tip of your nose and reach exactly that point every time.
and when you have the correct muscle memory forget about the strategy you used before?
 

donn

Prolific poster
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
1,366
Reaction score
25
Location
Seattle, Washington
What are your experience with this? Can certain strategies be bad when you get better at something?
Yes, I think so.

It seems to me that within me there are two accordion players, for the sake of discussion Left and Right. Right reads books and thinks about how to manage different accordion playing tasks; Left forms ability by many repetitions of doing things and getting the right sound.

Unfortunately Right has very little musical sense and his ideas don't work very well, so in the end, only Left can really play the accordion in a satisfactory way, but in the beginning only Right has any idea what to do. People who can get these two faculties to work together undoubtedly have an easier time progressing on the accordion than I do; I guess my basic problem may be that I don't do enough basic repetition, drills that would build strength in the Left player. But anyway, to answer your question - from my experience, all strategies are bad, when you're good at playing - if you're aware of a strategy, that's the Right player, who is at best useful only when you're incompetent.
 

JeffJetton

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
886
Reaction score
298
One part of the tune has the following chords: E-F#m-G#-E. [...]
and does anyone know the theory behind this progression (which is in the key of E)?

That is a very unusual progression. It would be more common for that G# to be a G#m or a E/G#.

What song is it?
 

saundersbp

Active member
Joined
Nov 2, 2018
Messages
147
Reaction score
109
Location
Yorkshire UK
Muscle memory is important but I think it gets overstated. I play different instruments (not just accordions either) and feeling for the right position is equally important especially as few instruments are alike. The worst advice is to just get used to your instrument as you'll be starting again on a different instrument.
 

Dingo40

Been here for ages!
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
2,274
Reaction score
829
Location
South Australia
Dan,
"What are your experience with this?"
I think my longest jump so far has been Ab to G in my "easy " arrangement of "In the mood"(one more than your G# to E).
You just get used to it!๐Ÿ™‚(Sorry, Saunders)
In my case, having dimples on the Ab and C (brush in passing) buttons helped with navigation. ๐Ÿ™‚
Every hurdle you master helps with the next one!๐Ÿ™‚
Or,
"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"๐Ÿ˜„
 
Last edited:

96Bass

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2021
Messages
80
Reaction score
121
Location
Sebastopol, CA
Your E bass button should be marked. Going from E to G# would be challenging due to how the bass strap gets more constricting that high up on the bass buttons. Going from G# to E should be easier as you are landing on a marked button.
Are you playing this piece with other musicians? If not, I wouldn't hesitate to transpose it to a more comfortable key.
I find it difficult to play bass note above F# and below Gb, especially on a 96 bass. I haven't much experience in playing in keys that require those bass notes so I have no practice in using those bass buttons.
 

Dingo40

Been here for ages!
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
2,274
Reaction score
829
Location
South Australia
Dan,
Here's an idea:
In addition to marking your Ab, C and E bass buttons with a dimple, also mark the G# and E (low end) buttons: problem (almost) solved!๐Ÿ™‚๐Ÿ‘
(BTW, this is acceptable practice)
 

96Bass

Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2021
Messages
80
Reaction score
121
Location
Sebastopol, CA
Hey Dingo,
I was wondering if that was an acceptable practice to mark bass buttons other than C, Ab, & E.
Here is a video on the subject. He gets pretty aggressive with the power drill.

 

Dingo40

Been here for ages!
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
2,274
Reaction score
829
Location
South Australia
96Bass,
Thanks for finding this link ๐Ÿ™‚๐Ÿ‘
I was aware of this guy and was wondering how I'd find the link if Dan wanted advice about marking the buttons ๐Ÿคซ
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Location
Sweden
That is a very unusual progression. It would be more common for that G# to be a G#m or a E/G#.

What song is it?
Dansen pรฅ Sunnanรถ. In the lead sheet I have the F#m is actually F#m/A but I don't think that's very important. I actually did one mistake. IT's actually G#7. This chord is the dominant chord in C#. We could write it out as V7/vi but I am not sure why anyone would go to the V7/vi.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Location
Sweden
Your E bass button should be marked. Going from E to G# would be challenging due to how the bass strap gets more constricting that high up on the bass buttons. Going from G# to E should be easier as you are landing on a marked button.
Are you playing this piece with other musicians? If not, I wouldn't hesitate to transpose it to a more comfortable key.
I find it difficult to play bass note above F# and below Gb, especially on a 96 bass. I haven't much experience in playing in keys that require those bass notes so I have no practice in using those bass buttons.
Should be marked? I only really need have the C marked. I can easily find my E from there.
 

Tom

Been here for ages!
Site Supporter
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
2,172
Reaction score
540
Location
USA
Yes, I think so.

It seems to me that within me there are two accordion players, for the sake of discussion Left and Right. Right reads books and thinks about how to manage different accordion playing tasks; Left forms ability by many repetitions of doing things and getting the right sound.

Unfortunately Right has very little musical sense and his ideas don't work very well, so in the end, only Left can really play the accordion in a satisfactory way, but in the beginning only Right has any idea what to do. People who can get these two faculties to work together undoubtedly have an easier time progressing on the accordion than I do; I guess my basic problem may be that I don't do enough basic repetition, drills that would build strength in the Left player. But anyway, to answer your question - from my experience, all strategies are bad, when you're good at playing - if you're aware of a strategy, that's the Right player, who is at best useful only when you're incompetent.
Very interesting, Donn, thanks, I can see your point. In your story, Right reads and studies, while Left just plays. But you say that Right also has very little musical sense. What if someone with lots of musical sense approaches the accordion through reading and study? I submit that in this case, Right will play better than a Left with no musical sense.

Anyway, I agree that repeated playing without or with music develops the sense of emotion that helps to define music that I want to listen to and admire to.

Reading, however, can be extremely useful. Let's say you are playing with your friend and she says, let's play the "Boat Lifter Polka," which you have never seen or heard. Being able to read it will get you playing with her a lot faster than learning it by ear, especially if you are playing live.
 

donn

Prolific poster
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
1,366
Reaction score
25
Location
Seattle, Washington
But you say that Right also has very little musical sense. What if someone with lots of musical sense approaches the accordion through reading and study? I submit that in this case, Right will play better than a Left with no musical sense.

Maybe such people exist, but I doubt it. It's like ... nerdy kid manages to accurately hit baseball pitches by applying his computational skills. No. That's a skill that simply demands too much if approached in any other way, than the right kind of practice. The best we can hope for is that our cognitive skill integrates well with the "black box" system that we can train to play a musical instrument at a high level. That integration can add to musical sense - that was probably an ill chosen term, I had in mind the fairly low level sense of music, like rhythm, and didn't mean to suggest that the intellect in general has no role to play in music. It's just that the black box reflex system has to have the steering wheel, if you're going to take the corners at speed.

Reading, however, can be extremely useful. Let's say you are playing with your friend and she says, let's play the "Boat Lifter Polka," which you have never seen or heard. Being able to read it will get you playing with her a lot faster than learning it by ear, especially if you are playing live.

Sure, "reads books and thinks" wasn't about sight reading. If you want an example of cognitive ability factored into that, consider what happens when you're asked to transpose something on sight. This also is a skill that can be learned - with a lot of repetition.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tom

JeffJetton

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
886
Reaction score
298
Dansen pรฅ Sunnanรถ. In the lead sheet I have the F#m is actually F#m/A but I don't think that's very important. I actually did one mistake. IT's actually G#7. This chord is the dominant chord in C#. We could write it out as V7/vi but I am not sure why anyone would go to the V7/vi.
This song?
I don't hear a III7 (or V7/vi) in it, but you might have a more creative arrangement of it than the one in the video.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tom

Siegmund

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2021
Messages
51
Reaction score
34
Location
Montana, USA
Expanding on the "what's the theory behind this progression?" string a bit:

For a super short answer, just look at the linear motion between G# and E: G# stays the same; B# moves down a half step to B; D# moves up a half step to E. They will sound very smoothly connected.

For a long answer, here's a thought experiment for you. If you saw E - f#m - B7 - E, you would not blink an eye at a I-ii-V-I progression. When we connect B7 to E, B stays the same, D# moves a half step up to E, and A moves down a half step to G#. (If you play the F#, it has to move a whole step down to E.)
We sometimes replace V7 with viio7 for extra intensity, making three voices rather than two move by half step (D# to E, C to B, and A to G#; again if you play the F# it has to move a whole step.) In E major, you can think of the G# chord as "undoing some of the intensity of the diminished 7th by removing the A->G# half-step motion." In E minor, this is a nice filler to make an A-G#-G motion.

Try playing that whole sequence, letting one pitch at a time change. For 3 voices in your left hand, B7 - Cdim - G# - E(or Em). For 4 voices, F#dim/B, Adim/D#, G#7/D#, E/E (or Em/E). If you don't like moving your left fingers all over the place to only change one note, play it with your right hand. RH notes pasted in below (written C instead of B#, etc, to cut down on accidentals):

efisgis.png
 

JeffJetton

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Messages
886
Reaction score
298
what chord do you hear at 00:33?

Sounds like a G7 then a C (V7 to I since this version is in C rather than E). The bass plays the 5th of the G in the measure before the C.

That is, the chords during what I guess is the chorus--starting around 0:27--are something like this (each chord is one measure):


Code:
C     F     G7    F


G7    G7/D  C     C


C     F     C     D7


G7    G7/B  C     C

He is using a II7 (technically V7/V7) there. But I'm not hearing any III7 anywhere.
 
Joined
Oct 29, 2021
Messages
14
Reaction score
1
Location
Sweden
Sounds like a G7 then a C (V7 to I since this version is in C rather than E). The bass plays the 5th of the G in the measure before the C.

That is, the chords during what I guess is the chorus--starting around 0:27--are something like this (each chord is one measure):


Code:
C     F     G7    F


G7    G7/D  C     C


C     F     C     D7


G7    G7/B  C     C

He is using a II7 (technically V7/V7) there. But I'm not hearing any III7 anywhere.
I have to say this: the lead sheets are really strange sometimes. At least in this case!
 

Similar threads

Top