How to get a chromatic button accordion in the USA?

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello there,
as part of my accordionists path, I am interested in learning how to play a Chromatic button accordion (like the great russians Bayan).

However, here in the USA, where I live, it seems kind of difficult to find one used and a reasonable price. Most of the accordions here are piano ones.

So, my question will be:

How should search for an used Chromatic Button accordion in the USA that is good for learning? Should I import it from abroad instead? W

Also, since I'm here, I would like to ask:

What are the advantages of learning the Chromatic button layout in comparison to the piano one?

I read somewhere that the Chromatic button accordion might be convenient to learn in the long run, but I would like to know what the folks here think.

That would be everything. Thanks for your attention.

Regards,

Jaime

 

[JerryPH]

First, there is a great deal of difference between a Bayan and a chromatic button accordion. Bayanists have actually been seen cringing when their accordions are called "button accordions"

The advantages over piano accordion... OK, I have an opinion on this and an experienced button accordion player like Paul may or may not agree, however, I will say that for 90% of **all** accordionists, there is ZERO real life advantages.

BUT, that said, there are advantages. For people that are in the upper echelon, people that are going to perform difficult pieces there are certain techniques that can be done on a button that cannot be done as easily on a PA. A wider "spread" is easier done on a button accordion and it is easier to make fast runs of complex passages on a button accordion.

It has disadvantages too... less learning material in North America, fewer people that repair and sell them in North America and fewer people that teach them as well. Then there is the question of what system... C-griff and B-griff are different layouts on the right hand and not only are there fewer teachers of button accordion in North America, double up on the # of systems, and that makes finding a good teacher in Illinois... slim to none in terms of chances of finding one.

Bayan... all the above... times 10. First they are rarer than hen's teeth in North America, THEN you are tossing in the challenge of Free Bass on the left hand AND the fact that Bayan systems are laid out completely backwards from their equivalent standard Free Bass cousins just adds to the challenge.

If I was 4 years old and starting over again, I would be looking in the direction of a C-griff button accordion with a matching free bass system that mirrors the right hand layout and has a STEPPED first 3 rows of the Free Bass and use a custom setup that let me use the Bayan reeds for that sound.

Now, at my age, I'd waste 10 years getting back to where I am today... and for me to start at 62 years and if I push like a S.O.B. for 10 years to get to where I am today... completely out of the question.

I started on PA, and I am going to die playing the PA and spend the time I have left improving what I got.

Now, here is the kicker... if you WANT to do somehting... ANYTHING like this bcause it makes you happy... DO IT!

I've offered my 2 cents and that is pretty close to about all that is worth as well.

 

[petch]

Many seem to swear by Petosa and Liberty Bellows in the states

For reasons Jerry mentioned (fewer repairers) it's probably a good idea to buy from a trusted source rather than someone selling their deceased relative's old accordion. You'll pay more but at least you will have some sort of warranty

Ideally (as I've learned first hand by narrowly avoiding a bit of a disaster of an accordion) you would try before you buy, but sometimes that's not possible

 

[Siegmund]

I enjoy CBA myself. It's nice to be able to span 2 octaves even with small hands. It's nice to have a choice of fingerings and see which one is easiest. It's nice to be able to learn a handful of finger patterns and apply them to any key, rather than having to learn new fingering for twelve different scales. It's nice to have a range of 4 or even 5 octaves, in the same space that only accommodates 3 octaves on a PA.

IMO the only thing piano accordion has going for it is... the fact there are a lot of people who know how to play pianos who want a shortcut to learning a new instrument. If you are a pianist already, that can be compelling. (I'm not.)

But as you've noticed they are very hard to find in the US. I imported mine (and it arrived in outwardly good shape, but questionably well tuned, and you don't really have redress when the seller is half a world away.)

Here on the west coast there is a small hotbed of CBA activity in Vancouver and Victoria, BC. I don't know if there may be a similar reason for you to consider a shopping trip to Toronto rather than Philadelphia. But do look on both sides of the border for potential repairmen and sellers. I seem to remember there is a bayan specialist in Pittsburgh, too, whom I've never met but have seen mentioned online from time to time.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

First, there is a great deal of difference between a Bayan and a chromatic button accordion. Bayanists have actually been seen cringing when their accordions are called "button accordions"

The advantages over piano accordion... OK, I have an opinion on this and an experienced button accordion player like Paul may or may not agree, however, I will say that for 90% of **all** accordionists, there is ZERO real life advantages.

BUT, that said, there are advantages. For people that are in the upper echelon, people that are going to perform difficult pieces there are certain techniques that can be done on a button that cannot be done as easily on a PA. A wider "spread" is easier done on a button accordion and it is easier to make fast runs of complex passages on a button accordion.

It has disadvantages too... less learning material in North America, fewer people that repair and sell them in North America and fewer people that teach them as well. Then there is the question of what system... C-griff and B-griff are different layouts on the right hand and not only are there fewer teachers of button accordion in North America, double up on the # of systems, and that makes finding a good teacher in Illinois... slim to none in terms of chances of finding one.

Bayan... all the above... times 10. First they are rarer than hen's teeth in North America, THEN you are tossing in the challenge of Free Bass on the left hand AND the fact that Bayan systems are laid out completely backwards from their equivalent standard Free Bass cousins just adds to the challenge.

If I was 4 years old and starting over again, I would be looking in the direction of a C-griff button accordion with a matching free bass system that mirrors the right hand layout and has a STEPPED first 3 rows of the Free Bass and use a custom setup that let me use the Bayan reeds for that sound.

Now, at my age, I'd waste 10 years getting back to where I am today... and for me to start at 62 years and if I push like a S.O.B. for 10 years to get to where I am today... completely out of the question.

I started on PA, and I am going to die playing the PA and spend the time I have left improving what I got.

Now, here is the kicker... if you WANT to do somehting... ANYTHING like this bcause it makes you happy... DO IT!

I've offered my 2 cents and that is pretty close to about all that is worth as well.

This has been very informative to me, and I really appreciate.

Is nice to know that Bayans and Chromatic accordions are on a different level from each other.
Just the fact that it is so rare around here and the challenge itself makes me want to play it even more! (but first I should be able to master enough the piano accordion first).

I may go to Russia one day just so I can experience a concert from a Bayanist with free bass system.

Also, I heard a story that free bass systems were almost going to be mass produced here in North America, but unfortunately, the popularity of the accordion was already going down and my guess is that they just didn't push further on that project.

What a tragedy, indeed.

 

[SteveBox]

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about the merits of the various designs for accordions. There is no one best system (PA, CBA, Bayan, Stradella, Free Bass, the various diatonics), it all depends on what appeals to you and also on the type of music you want to play. Whatever you pick, it will take many years to master it, so choose carefully. The Russian Bayan is probably the rarest in this country. I see many for sale on eBay, but most are shipped from Ukraine.

PAs may be the most popular, but you can find international system CBAs, both C-system and B-system for sale in the US. There are many on eBay (be careful about buying on eBay), and accordion shops usually have them. There are some new Chinese made ones for low prices, of questionable quality perhaps, but maybe okay for a beginner. I don't know how much a Bayan and CBA actually differ. My impression is that the Bayan is very close to being the same as a B-system CBA, so I would think you could get started with one of those.

Like some others on this forum, I played PA for many years, then tried out a C-system CBA and switched. So it is whatever you like. I taught myself the CBA (and PA), so I never had to look for a teacher. If you need a teacher, and cannot find one locally, there is online instruction available. Liberty Bellows, for example, offers online instruction for most types of accordions. There are other online accordion teachers as well, plus free YouTube videos that can get you started.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Many seem to swear by Petosa and Liberty Bellows in the states

For reasons Jerry mentioned (fewer repairers) it's probably a good idea to buy from a trusted source rather than someone selling their deceased relative's old accordion. You'll pay more but at least you will have some sort of warranty

Ideally (as I've learned first hand by narrowly avoiding a bit of a disaster of an accordion) you would try before you buy, but sometimes that's not possible

Yes, I have seen Petosa and Libertybellows sellling them, but they are too expensive and advance for a beginner, I believe.


I think it is a good point. I've seen people trying to sell obscure Soviet CB Accordions online and I was warned to not buy them since they could just end up being just a useless piece of junk taking space .

But also, I've seen people owning old CB accordions from east Germany, that have many registers (including triple musette) and still sound very good. Of course, I don't see them selling those anytime soon (even thought they don't really know what they have).

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I enjoy CBA myself. It's nice to be able to span 2 octaves even with small hands. It's nice to have a choice of fingerings and see which one is easiest. It's nice to be able to learn a handful of finger patterns and apply them to any key, rather than having to learn new fingering for twelve different scales. It's nice to have a range of 4 or even 5 octaves, in the same space that only accommodates 3 octaves on a PA.

IMO the only thing piano accordion has going for it is... the fact there are a lot of people who know how to play pianos who want a shortcut to learning a new instrument. If you are a pianist already, that can be compelling. (I'm not.)

But as you've noticed they are very hard to find in the US. I imported mine (and it arrived in outwardly good shape, but questionably well tuned, and you don't really have redress when the seller is half a world away.)

Here on the west coast there is a small hotbed of CBA activity in Vancouver and Victoria, BC. I don't know if there may be a similar reason for you to consider a shopping trip to Toronto rather than Philadelphia. But do look on both sides of the border for potential repairmen and sellers. I seem to remember there is a bayan specialist in Pittsburgh, too, whom I've never met but have seen mentioned online from time to time.

I will check that out. Thank you for the reference.
They are rare, indeed. But I have seen people owning old CB accordions from East Germany that sound amazing!

Unfortunately, I don't see them selling those any time soon.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

There has been a lot of discussion on this forum about the merits of the various designs for accordions. There is no one best system (PA, CBA, Bayan, Stradella, Free Bass, the various diatonics), it all depends on what appeals to you and also on the type of music you want to play. Whatever you pick, it will take many years to master it, so choose carefully. The Russian Bayan is probably the rarest in this country. I see many for sale on eBay, but most are shipped from Ukraine.

PAs may be the most popular, but you can find international system CBAs, both C-system and B-system for sale in the US. There are many on eBay (be careful about buying on eBay), and accordion shops usually have them. There are some new Chinese made ones for low prices, of questionable quality perhaps, but maybe okay for a beginner. I don't know how much a Bayan and CBA actually differ. My impression is that the Bayan is very close to being the same as a B-system CBA, so I would think you could get started with one of those.

Like some others on this forum, I played PA for many years, then tried out a C-system CBA and switched. So it is whatever you like. I taught myself the CBA (and PA), so I never had to look for a teacher. If you need a teacher, and cannot find one locally, there is online instruction available. Liberty Bellows, for example, offers online instruction for most types of accordions. There are other online accordion teachers as well, plus free YouTube videos that can get you started.

Precisely, because I heard Bayans are very rare here and it triggers my curiosity a lot. That and the challenge of playing one.

Also, some people on the forums have mentioned that bayan accordions use a certain type of reeds that makes them sound far louder than Italian accordions, which are fairly common here.
I would like to try a Bayan one day. However, I have the impression that those are mostly for more experienced accordionist so I'm not in a hurry at all to get one, but still I'm interested in learning the chromatic button layout.

It sounds great that you are teaching yourself to use the CBA. I will take that as inspiration since I also taught myself how to use the PA (although with some help from people around me).

 

[JerryPH]

I may go to Russia one day just so I can experience a concert from a Bayanist with free bass system.

Let me save you the trip... YouTube has many videos and I personally sat through a 1 hour recital with a famous Bayanist in real life here in Montreal. He actually lived in Toronto, unfortunately he has since passed away.

Via a fortunate accident, I (by mistake) recorded the entire recital on my phone. It is of low quality but good enough to get an idea, click on the link to enjoy it... I listen to it regularly myself.

 

[Walker]

The advantages over piano accordion... OK, I have an opinion on this and an experienced button accordion player like Paul may or may not agree, however, I will say that for 90% of **all** accordionists, there is ZERO real life advantages.

BUT, that said, there are advantages. For people that are in the upper echelon, people that are going to perform difficult pieces there are certain techniques that can be done on a button that cannot be done as easily on a PA. A wider "spread" is easier done on a button accordion and it is easier to make fast runs of complex passages on a button accordion.

It has disadvantages too... less learning material in North America, fewer people that repair and sell them in North America and fewer people that teach them as well. Then there is the question of what system... C-griff and B-griff are different layouts on the right hand and not only are there fewer teachers of button accordion in North America, double up on the # of systems, and that makes finding a good teacher in Illinois... slim to none in terms of chances of finding one.

Bayan... all the above... times 10. First they are rarer than hen's teeth in North America, THEN you are tossing in the challenge of Free Bass on the left hand AND the fact that Bayan systems are laid out completely backwards from their equivalent standard Free Bass cousins just adds to the challenge.

Fascinating points Jerry. Indeed, it always gives me great satisfaction to listen to your wisdom on the subject. However, I would like to add one or two virtues of the piano accordion, in contrast to the statement of my good buddy @Siegmund, who considers that the PA has rather little 'going for it'...

IMO the only thing piano accordion has going for it is... the fact there are a lot of people who know how to play pianos who want a shortcut to learning a new instrument. If you are a pianist already, that can be compelling. (I'm not.)

Firstly, as you Jerry are well aware - many of the great free bass piano accordions, such as the Hohner Gola 459, Zero Sette Optima, Titano Emperor Super V, Petosa Cathedral Galla-Rini Bayan are all 5 voice accordions. However, the great Bayans are virtually always only 4 voice instruments, as they contain so many reeds that it is not possible to create a five voice version, without it being as unwieldy and deep as to be akin to playing a microwave oven. Therefore, the great 5 voice piano accordions can create sonic variations that are frankly unknown on bayan. For example, I have heard of a Beltrami PA with 32', 16', 8', 8', 4' voices. Thus, it can create sounds with combinations such as 32' + 4'. Not even the great button virtuosi will be able to play triple octave 'double notes' at any significant velocity as to replicate the PA's sonic capabilities.

I would also point out that the smaller surface area of buttons (compared to keys), makes it very difficult to control the full variety of sound nuances/articulations that can be squeezed out of a reed on a piano accordion. Indeed, this may not affect mere mortals such as myself, but at the highest level it is an area where great virtuosi like Hussong etc. can leave his button accordion colleagues gasping in his wake.

Finally, I would note that the choice of PA or CBA should be linked to the kind of music you wish to play. For Classical music the ergonomics of the bayan or button accordion may represent a significant advantage. However the large number of Russian virtuosi playing PA makes me question this assumption. Also, for types of music that I am familiar with - like Scottish music, there is genuinely no advantage to playing a large bayan over piano accordion. Indeed, the piano accordion can replicate the style of the Highland Bagpipes far more convincingly than any 5 row CBA, this I believe is due to the much more linear layout of the piano keyboard and the natural finger positions that promotes the crispest of grace notes.

I don't wish to go on too much further and elaborate on other disadvantages of the bayan, as I do not enjoy doing this. However, it is clear that some button accordionists find it quite acceptable to belittle the piano system. I therefore hope to just add a little more fairness towards the PA in this conversation.

See y'all.

 

[lordzedd]

I may go to Russia one day just so I can experience a concert from a Bayanist with free bass system.

You needn't go that far; Stas Venglevski is based in Milwaukee, MN.

 

[Tom]

I believe it doesn't matter what you play. You gotta play what you like to play. If you don't know, you have to try some different types and determine what trips your trigger. It doesn't matter. There is no hierarchy of accordion types. Or accordion music. Someone will like "simple" cajun music on a 10 key 2 bass diatonic. Someone else needs to hear "modern classical" music on a 45 key 150 bass accordion that converts between stradella and free bass.

Music either has someone listening to it or not. If you're just playing for yourself (nothing wrong with that) the only thing thst matters is whether you like your accordion. Some people never find an accordion that they like. This is the saddest story. If you're playing for listeners then the only thing that matters is if you connect. 99% of the time this has nothing to do with the type of accordion you are playing or even what or how well you play.

There are venues, I know, that the only thing that is important is the type and brand of accordion being played. This is equivalent to the first violinist having to play a Stradivarius. If that is what connects you to your audience so be it, no judgement.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

One thing I would like to play with the accordion is waltzes

Let me save you the trip... YouTube has many videos and I personally sat through a 1 hour recital with a famous Bayanist in real life here in Montreal. He actually lived in Toronto, unfortunately he has since passed away.

Via a fortunate accident, I (by mistake) recorded the entire recital on my phone. It is of low quality but good enough to get an idea, click on the link to enjoy it... I listen to it regularly myself.

Thanks for recording that and sharing it with us.

It is a pleasure to listen.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I believe it doesn't matter what you play. You gotta play what you like to play. If you don't know, you have to try some different types and determine what trips your trigger. It doesn't matter. There is no hierarchy of accordion types. Or accordion music. Someone will like "simple" cajun music on a 10 key 2 bass diatonic. Someone else needs to hear "modern classical" music on a 45 key 150 bass accordion that converts between stradella and free bass.

Music either has someone listening to it or not. If you're just playing for yourself (nothing wrong with that) the only thing thst matters is whether you like your accordion. Some people never find an accordion that they like. This is the saddest story. If you're playing for listeners then the only thing that matters is if you connect. 99% of the time this has nothing to do with the type of accordion you are playing or even what or how well you play.

There are venues, I know, that the only thing that is important is the type and brand of accordion being played. This is equivalent to the first violinist having to play a Stradivarius. If that is what connects you to your audience so be it, no judgement.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

This is a great point that I sometimes forget.
I play for myself. If others like it, great.

The kind of music I want to play it's mostly waltz and fol ( and anything that I like). I just love how the music sounds in an area with plenty of tall buildings and it's relatively silent.

I must admit that, I like the reaction people have sometimes. That's a welcome bonus.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

You needn't go that far; Stas Venglevski is based in Milwaukee, MN.

I will check this out.
It will be great to listen to one of those Bayan concerts.
Thanks for sharing.


ps: apparenly, Stas is using a Bayan accordion made by Petosa in Seattle.

 

[Siegmund]

Yes, I have seen Petosa and Libertybellows sellling them, but they are too expensive and advance for a beginner, I believe.

There isn't, in principle, anything stopping a beginner from learning on a top-of-the-line instrument, if he can afford one and find one. In fact it'd be a little bit easier, than coping with a wheezy leaky old instrument that makes you work a lot harder to get sound out of it.

Going along with that, with a limited budget, it is probably better to buy the best quality simple instrument you can, rather than a broken-down old thing that used to have all the bells and whistles.

...many of the great free bass piano accordions, such as the Hohner Gola 459, Zero Sette Optima, Titano Emperor Super V, Petosa Cathedral Galla-Rini Bayan are all 5 voice accordions. However, the great Bayans are virtually always only 4 voice instruments, as they contain so many reeds that it is not possible to create a five voice version... For example, I have heard of a Beltrami PA with 32', 16', 8', 8', 4' voices.

I think there's some question as to cause vs. effect here. A button accordion has no reason to have a 32-foot voice since it has a long enough keyboard for the 16-foot voice to extend down to the lowest reeds available. A PA with a 32-foot voice sounds like it is making up for having too narrow of a range, by adding a two-octaves-lower transposition switch.

It is true that I haven't ever seen a 5-voice 5-octave button accordion. They do make LMMMH 4-octave button accordions, (and in the case of the Poeta vs. the Poeta V, the extra voice adds 800g to the weight and 2.5cm to the case depth - I am rather surprised the weight penalty is so tiny.)

However, it is clear that some button accordionists find it quite acceptable to belittle the piano system.

You may be assured my feelings aren't limited to the piano accordion. I have an even poorer opinion of the actual piano

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I would like to add that I don't belittle either accordion layout and its accordionists.

I just think learning the button accordion will be cool just for the technical challenge and experience ( and so I can try one of those bayan accordions one day).

I'ts surprising that the CBA its kind of rare here in North America since, I believe, piano accordions are also popular in European countries and they have no troubles getting them.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

By the way,


I found this wonderful lady on youtube that lives in North America and has been teaching CBAs for 20 years.

I would like to share her here on this thread.



Demo of her playing a waltz for a couple with a Bayan (something I would love to do one day soon)

 

[Dingo40]

I'ts surprising that the CBA its kind of rare here in North America since, I believe, piano accordions are also popular in European countries and they have no troubles getting them.

It's probably a historical accident .
Here's something about it:

A History of the Accordion in Americana Music

Invented in 1829, the accordion came to North America early on, and as westward expansion took place, was heard in the mountains and bayous….in cities, towns and in the country….in the deserts of t…

accordionamericana.com