FREE BASS

[debra]

We live in an age where it is so easy to find sources of information. I frequently view the Pigini Talks on Youtube. I think these short videos give unique insights into the thoughts of great musicians, teachers, composers etc.

I have owned many different makes of accordions and have no particular attachment to any brand. However, objectively speaking, I think Pigini are, by a considerable distance, the most forward thinking of all makers in the free bass and classical/contemporary sphere. This is why they are numero uno! Now I love Hohner, Bugari and Scandalli, but the painful truth is that in this era Pigini wears the crown - not because they make the best accordion, but because they are good at listening and understanding their customers, especially at academic level.

Now, we live in a world where everyone is a critic, and he who shouts loudest will be listened to. However, Pigini understand the bank of knowedge of its performers. These people may not shout the loudest, but I believe they have much to give.

Here, Marko Hatlak shares some of his views on music and the accordion. I think he is very interesting and worth listening to.

I hope that Pigini really listens and understands their customers, and acts accordingly...
Some of their design and manufacturing decisions have been really bad, like glueing in reed blocks (they did that in my Pigini Basson C39) or glueing buttons instead of screwing them in, on button accordions... As long as everything works none of this is a problem, but when an accordion needs repair or tuning some of the older Pigini accordions are a nightmare. So Pigini needs to listen not just to its performers but also to its repairers!
I have no idea which independent source would say that Pigini "wears the crown" or is "numero uno"... I do not see that at all in the part of the accordion world I know. Yes there are some world-famous (or more locally famous) players using Pigini, but the same can be said for Bugari, Scandalli, Hohner... (to only name European brands)... I mostly see non-professional accordion players, accordion orchestras and ensembles, and that's many of them from many different places... and if Pigini wants to be "numero uno" they have a long way to go...

 

[Walker]

Hi Paul,

It's Stewart here, and it's a pleasure to have the chance to speak to you. It is also a wonderful thing that you and I can have music and the accordion in our lives. We are privileged to have such opportunities in life - many others know only hardship.

I have made a strong statement about Pigini's status in the sphere of classical accordion. It is such a shame that it overshadowed the wonderful testimony of the artist in the Pigini Talks. Maybe, what I was trying to express was that Pigini make great efforts to let us musicians hear the words of those who have dedicated themselves completely and entirely to their art. This is a noble thing, especially in a world where the accordion is not valued and no matter how hard we try, the accordion cannot be truly accepted in the Classical music world. This does not bother me at all, but it makes the efforts of all those who strive for beautiful music to be even more impressive.

Now I very well understand your perspective as a repairer. But there is no perfect accordion and all manufacturers have flaws - it is in human nature. However, when I stand back, and look at the world of accordion, it is easy to see a pattern emerge. You know Paul, 'every dog has its day'. At one time it was Hohner and Scandalli, but their greatest glories are written in the pages of history. Now is the time of Pigini - it will not last forever, but I would still not deny them their place. Their work on the free bass mechanism is wonderful. You know even the great Dallape Cathedral Bayan used the Pigini mechanism. I remember once asking my friend Amleto Dallape - who makes the truly great free bass accordions? I listed off the usual names. His answer was Pigini.

Does it matter what I think? No. But I reserve the right to say it quietly anyway. I listen to the countless wonderful accordionists who choose Pigini. If we cannot acknowledge Pigini's work, then it reflects more on us as individuals than the brand.

When I said Pigini are numero uno, I also said it was not related to manufacturing, but to their ability to engage with the academic sphere. Why does this matter? Perhaps it is the best hope the accordion will ever have to become a truly respected musical instrument on the world stage - this is the dream.

When I originally posted the line about 'the painful truth' is that Pigini wears the crown ... I had actually edited that line to 'I honestly think Pigini wears the crown' - even before you replied. Regardless of this - no, I think they do more than the others... You see, Pigini Talks, it's more than marketing. Sure that's part of it, but they give us a greater insight into the lives of so many wonderful musicians. It is all there on Youtube. You can hear the greatest accordion professors in the world talk to us about their thoughts. It's not about glue and buttons and which accordion is best. There are gems of insights in these interviews - but we can only access this treasure with openness of spirit.

Finally, thank you Paul, for your knowledge and insight on the post.

 

[debra]

When it comes to innovation Pigini and Beltuna are at the top, Pigini is obviously much larger than Beltuna at this time.
I applaud Pigini for coming up with their own convertor mechanism because frankly, the "standard" mechanism used by virtually everyone else (in the Western world) has its flaws, some generations more so that others. Sadly Pigini also made pretty bad mechanisms. (Again, that's speaking as a repairer here.) I don't know if all their accordions now come with a really good convertor mechanism.
I fully understand and appreciate that we have different ways of looking at the accordions. When you look at the absolute top instruments a factory produces, like the Pigini Nova, and its players who are professionals for whom paying 30k for an accordion is simply worth it, the accordion world looks very different from the bulk of the accordions I get to see, that cost roughly between 5k and 15k new (or 20k at dealers who want to get rich too quickly), accordions that go to players who will not make 30k using their accordion in their entire lifetime... I have tried a new Sirius and Nova side by side and there is a very clear difference, not just in sound but also in how light the accordion is to the touch... People who play accordions in the Nova price range will view different manufacturers differently than people who with a lot of financial effort could maybe get themselves to spend the money for a Sirius...
That's why I always tell people that you cannot answer a question like "is a Pigini better than a Bugari" because you need to consider which Pigini versus which Bugari. I tell them that it's not because Ksenija Sidorova for instance plays a Pigini (Nova) that when they want to buy an accordion this must mean that Pigini is the best, because they are not going to buy a Nova...

 

[Walker]

Hi Paul,

What a lovely nuanced response and perhaps from the perspective of brand recognition and innovation (of Italian manufacturers) Pigini edges above the other Italian brands in free bass accordion.

Sure, when we talk free bass, and if we look at the highest forms, you and I both know there are only a small number of manufacturers who are the true heavyweights. I have owned Bugari accordions most of my life. They are one of the top names. You mention Beltuna and yes, they are wonderful accordions too.

However, I would love to hear your opinion on the new Beltuna Grand Convertor. I have some concerns about the direction being taken - battery power and soleniod valves etc.




What do you think?

 

[Tom]

We live in an age where it is so easy to find sources of information. I frequently view the Pigini Talks on Youtube. I think these short videos give unique insights into the thoughts of great musicians, teachers, composers etc.

I have owned many different makes of accordions and have no particular attachment to any brand. However, objectively speaking, I think Pigini are, by a considerable distance, the most forward thinking of all makers in the free bass and classical/contemporary sphere. This is why they are numero uno! Now I love Hohner, Bugari and Scandalli, but I honestly think Pigini wears the crown - not because they make the best accordion, but because they are good at listening and understanding their customers, especially at academic level.

Now, we live in a world where everyone is a critic, and he who shouts loudest will be listened to. However, Pigini understand the bank of knowedge of its performers. These people may not shout the loudest, but I believe they have much to give.

Here, Marko Hatlak shares some of his views on music and the accordion. I think he is very interesting and worth listening to.

Very interesting, indeed Stewart, thanks. He wants to make people happy with his music and compositions. Couldn’t agree more, even at 1/100 of his level, it's possible and why I like to volunteer so much.

 

[debra]

Hi Paul,

What a lovely nuanced response and perhaps from the perspective of brand recognition and innovation (of Italian manufacturers) Pigini edges above the other Italian brands in free bass accordion.

Sure, when we talk free bass, and if we look at the highest forms, you and I both know there are only a small number of manufacturers who are the true heavyweights. I have owned Bugari accordions most of my life. They are one of the top names. You mention Beltuna and yes, they are wonderful accordions too.

However, I would love to hear your opinion on the new Beltuna Grand Convertor. I have some concerns about the direction being taken - battery power and soleniod valves etc.
...
What do you think?

The introduction of electromechanic (solenoid) valves solves the biggest problem with convertor accordions: the force needed to press a button is different between standard bass and convertor and it also varies depending on the "octave couplers" used. The "standard" mechanism used by almost everyone except Pigini can be a bit "heavy", depending on the exact generation of the mechanism and the accordion manufacturer, but it isn't exactly light to the touch, especially in the lowest octave.
There are two drawbacks to the Beltuna system: 1) obviously you need to check the battery regularly and carry a spare just to be safe and 2) you cannot do tone-bending. That tone-bending issue is mostly a non-issue because I have only ever seen accordion players doing tone-bending with treble notes, never with the free bass.

My own experience started in the seventies, with Crucianelli. Later I moved to Hohner and the Polyphonic 400 was my first experience with convertor/free-bass. Then I moved to Bugari and had a number of them, first without convertor and later with convertor. I also have an AKKO bayan and I prefer that Russian convertor mechanism over the standard Italian one. My Pigini is the Basson C39 bass accordion, which has reed blocks that are glued in (bad idea), glued buttons (bad idea again), and the register mechanism is inside the reed blocks and the M and H reeds connect to each others' resonance chambers, which causes the tuning of the H reeds to differ between using the M reeds or not, so the bass accordion is essentially always out of tune. Pigini has also used rubbish leather valves with plastic boosters that cause unwanted vibrations (rumble) on some notes. You can imagine that considering that what is technically either bad design or bad implementation in this top of the line bass accordion I am slightly biased against Pigini... But I have worked on other Pigini accordions that are technically fine. (I just don't like the sound they produce, but that's an entirely different problem.)

 

[Walker]

Thanks Paul for your thoughts on the solenoid solution.

I have a slightly different perspective here... Firstly, to me the reason why the accordion had previously been discounted from the greater classical realm, was due to the stradella bass system using a mechanism for creating fixed chords. The three note chord was made by pressing a single button. Now I have no problem with this system, to me it is wonderful, and is still an important feature of the accordion. However, it seems this mechanical device was looked upon differently in the classical realm. It was restrictive and also considered fundamentally unmusical by the so-called experts. So, what happened? The problem was solved in various ways (in Italy, America, Russia and Germany) with the free bass accordion.

So now we have solved the 'unmusical' and 'restrictive' bit by the addition of a free bass mechanism. However, for me a classical accordion is most noble when it follows another philosophy of the great classical instruments... It should be brought to life by the movement of the musician only. The musician is the single most important element. To me, this sacred link between the musician and the instrument is broken - with the addition of solenoid valves. With the solenoid system the artist is no longer in complete control of the instrument and they are at the mercy of the battery pack - the source of the electrical current. No longer is the musician's energy solely creating the sound - and for me this is a backward step.

 

[saundersbp]

I completely agree with you Walker. The addition of solenoids is backwards. Such things were done with organs last century and destroyed the musical touch and control of the performer to say nothing of the horrendous expense of replacing anything electrical.

To me it seems trying to solve a problem that isn't that much of a problem. I've never played a converter accordion where the touch is that heavy. Even the heaviest accordion touch is nothing compared to a Steinway grand or medium sized mechanical action pipe organ!

 

[debra]

...
So now we have solved the 'unmusical' and 'restrictive' bit by the addition of a free bass mechanism. However, for me a classical accordion is most noble when it follows another philosophy of the great classical instruments... It should be brought to life by the movement of the musician only. The musician is the single most important element. To me, this sacred link between the musician and the instrument is broken - with the addition of solenoid valves. With the solenoid system the artist is no longer in complete control of the instrument and they are at the mercy of the battery pack - the source of the electrical current. No longer is the musician's energy solely creating the sound - and for me this is a backward step.

I understand your "purist" point of view. But let me give an important counterexample: the (pipe) organ.
Early organs (centuries ago) followed what I would compare to the accordion approach: the connection from the keyboards to the valves (that open/close to let air through the pipes) was always purely mechanical. It required significant force to press the keys. Purist organ players swear by this mechanism. A more recent invention is the "pneumatic" organ: the keys open a valve through which compressed air then goes towards the valves on the pipes. This system meant the keyboard was significantly lighter to the touch, but the pneumatic system caused some delay between pressing the key and the valve actually opening. Modern organs do precisely what Beltuna has introduced: the keys only control an electrical contact and the valves open/close using electromagnets. This electric connection has an important advantage over the others: there is no technical limitation about where the keyboard (and player) is located versus where the pipes are. Of course that distance should not be too large because of the delay in the sound reaching the player.
So Beltuna's "invention" is nothing really new and has already been widely accepted in the world of classical music.

 

[saundersbp]

Hi Paul,

That's really not accurate with respect to modern new Pipe Organs, full mechanical action is almost always preferred. (Sorry to contradict but this something I do know about).

In the field of accordions I virtually always agree with you however

 

[Walker]

Hi Paul,

The comparison of accordion with pipe organ is very interesting. Thank you for sharing it.

I don't really believe Beltuna is solving any problem. They are trying to 'iron out' a characteristic feature of our beautiful mechanical marvel that is the accordion. Saundersbp said it better than I ever could:

Even the heaviest accordion touch is nothing compared to a Steinway grand

However, you have made a fair point that not all classical instruments are completely manually driven. Though, I was really making more of a comparison of the accordion with the great examples of classical instruments such as - violin, cello etc. These are instruments where the musician and the instrument are held close together. The instrument and musician breath together. The bellows of the accordion moves, like the bow of the violin. The interaction is intense, and not quite comparable to the pipe organ, in this regard.

I will not comment on the strengths or weaknesses of later organ developments. Saundersbp has addressed this already.

It is interesting though, that one persons 'problem' is another persons 'characteristic'. You will have to forgive me for preferring the latter term - I am a piano accordionist after all

Saundersbp, I hope you don't mind if I use this quote more often:

I completely agree with you Walker

Just joking Saundersbp! Here's one last thing for you - during the many previous posts on the free bass topic, I have come to watch many Youtube videos of classical button accordion. And I have to say it, the big 64 note instruments - they look and sound amazing - especially the Pigini Nova and Sirius. You are right the buttons on both sides looks awesome.

 

[AccordionUprising]

Hi Chris,

Yes the harmoneon is a free bass system invented by Pierre Monichon https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonéon
These C system free bass accordions without converter (both keyboards are melodic) were mainly produced during the 50'-60' by "Fratelli Crosio" and "Cavagnolo" in Italy and France.

Advantage : left hand buttons size and spacing are identical to those for the right hand.
Disadvantage : left hand lowest notes starts at bottom and ends up on top (similar to russian bayan B system left hand).
The fingering is then not the same (like for the piano) as for the right hand and the bellows control is harder.

This free bass system aimed to get popularity in France during the 50'-60' but was rapidly outmoded by the C system (parallel / mirror) converter.

One of the best known harmoneon virtuoso is Alain Abott https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Abbott

I've seen video of harmonéons with basses that mirrored the right hand. So a mirrored C-system. Close to my dream instrument there.
That video has disappeared from youtube .

Since the harmonéon leaves off the converter, it saves a significant amount of weight if you don't want the stradella. Neat machines.

I'm currently trying to get a response from a French dealer on one. Hope they're not simply laughing at my floundering attempts at translating in my emails. ?

 

[debra]

Hi Paul,

That's really not accurate with respect to modern new Pipe Organs, full mechanical action is almost always preferred. (Sorry to contradict but this something I do know about).

In the field of accordions I virtually always agree with you however

Full mechanical action is still used in fairly compact organs, where the whole organ is one single "unit", as in the picture below.
A drawback of this construction is that the player is sitting with his back towards the audience.
(This picture is from a church in Veenendaal, the Netherlands.)


In the picture below you see a very different setup in a different church.
In this case the player is facing the altar of the church (to the left of the picture) and the pipes are mounted on the wall behind the player (to the right of the picture, not visible here).
This is much more comfortable for the player. The connection between the keyboard unit and the pipe unit is electrical.
(This picture is from a church in Woerden, the Netherlands.)
You may notice accordion players in the left of this picture. It was taken while we were rehearsing for a concert with accordions and organ. We were expecting an issue with sound delay, but were surprised by another issue: as it was rather cold in the church during this rehearsal the organ's tuning had gone up quite a bit and everything sounded bad. On the day of the actual concert the church was heated well and the tuning difference had disappeared.



In the church near my parents' house where I grew up they had an organ with pneumatic connection between the two units. The organ was all the way in the back but and the keyboard unit was placed to the side of the pipe unit, with the player facing forward to be able to see the altar (in the distance).

 

[saundersbp]

Hi Paul,

Lovely pictures! I don't wish to bore people on an accordion forum with a discussion about modern pipe organs but the assertions you are making really aren't accurate.

- Top organ builders favour mechanical action for new organs with the primary organ console as mechanical. This is seen in the majority of large new Cathedral and Concert Hall organs. The increased potential weight on the action is mitigated by a complex counter weight system called a balanced action. Additionally the console doesn't have to face into the instrument either but the mechanical connections called stickers and trackers can go underneath the floor if designed to do so. Sometimes there is a secondary console using a different action system and sometimes the manuals are coupled using an electrical system.

- Pneumatic action is an old technology and only tends to be used when restoring pneumatic action organs because its preservation has some heritage value /attracts grant funding. Sometimes pneumatic action is employed discretely a little on mechanical action organs to open the pallets of the largest pipes to help even out the touch in the bass, this is why you will sometimes see pipe organs with mechanical keyboards and a pneumatic pedal board.

- Electric action was experimented with but very rarely used now because the force needed by a solenoid to open the pallets and the resulting lack of longevity. A particular area of experimentation early in the twentieth century was with theatre organs and something called the unit extension organ.

- The most common action besides mechanical is called electro-pneumatic where a solenoid acts on something called a pneumatic motor under each pallet. This system is still used because the action speed is faster than pneumatic but is avoided where possible because of the horrendous rebuilding costs every 30-50 years or so - it can also be very noisy because of the pneumatic motor bellows when playing on quiet registers. Electro-pneumatic action is also useful when space is tight in the organ chamber and the console has to go at right angles for example. Every time you put a right angle into an action system it doubles the weight.

Mechanical action organs can be happily rebuilt and cleaned but with anything electro-pneumatic you are into mega bills for the next generation or so.

Anyway, I do this organ stuff for a living, so let's back to accordions as quickly as possible please!

 

[Chrisrayner]

I've seen video of harmonéons with basses that mirrored the right hand. So a mirrored C-system. Close to my dream instrument there.
That video has disappeared from youtube .

Since the harmonéon leaves off the converter, it saves a significant amount of weight if you don't want the stradella. Neat machines.

I'm currently trying to get a response from a French dealer on one. Hope they're not simply laughing at my floundering attempts at translating in my emails. ?

This one might make your dreams come true. https://www.leboncoin.fr/instruments_de_musique/2065501902.htm
The vendor says that on the left hand the ”graves” are “en haut”. Which might mean the low notes are at the top of the instrument. I’d make certain before shelling out, mind.

 

[Dingo40]

Saundersbp,
Thanks for the interesting overview of things organ: amazing!
The range of background expertise to be found among the members of this forum is truly astonishing!
While reading your account of the intricacies of the organ keyboard and how it works, I couldn't help thinking of a video tour of a Victorian era manual railway signal box and its workings. ??

 

[debra]

Hi Paul,

Lovely pictures! I don't wish to bore people on an accordion forum with a discussion about modern pipe organs but the assertions you are making really aren't accurate.

...

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience with organs. My first encounters with organs date back at least 45 years or so, with the organ in "our" church being pneumatic (and suffering from noise from the pneumatic system and from delay in the action) and another church where my sister practiced for organ lessons, and that had an electrical connection from keyboard to what I call the "pipe system". I'm glad the mechanical systems are now fully back, and likely improved so as to alleviate the problem of heavy keyboard action.
I'm hoping that the solenoid system needed for the bass side of the accordion is durable enough (despite having to be light) so that the new (Beltuna) accordions in which it is used can last a long time. When you consider that these are very expensive accordions I'd hate to think that they come with an electro-mechanical part that isn't designed to last the 50+ years we expect from an acoustic accordion. I like accordion innovations, but am sometimes worried about their durability.
Many people complain about the intricacy of an accordion's convertor mechanism and it being prone to failure (which is very often due to incorrect use of the convertor switch, and seldom due to pure mechanical failure). There are many convertor instruments still in use that have already lasted several decades and the mechanism still works just fine. So it cannot be all bad.

 

[bluesette]

I've seen video of harmonéons with basses that mirrored the right hand. So a mirrored C-system. Close to my dream instrument there.
That video has disappeared from youtube .

Since the harmonéon leaves off the converter, it saves a significant amount of weight if you don't want the stradella. Neat machines.

Hi Bruce,

Another free bass parallel/mirrored C-sys (entry level) instrument is the hybrid bandoneon made about 15 years ago by Harry Geuns and now discontinued (probably because it did cannibalize his more expensive models).
Right hand : 31 notes on stepped keyboard, 2 voices (MH) [::]III[:] Left hand : 31 notes on stepped keyboard, 2 voices (LM) with cassoto.
Diameter of the right & left hand (screwed) buttons is ca. 15 mm (buttons centre to centre distance is ca. 17.5 mm).
These boxes were cheap, very compact (H x D x W = ca. 245 x 245 x 280 mm) and lightweight (ca. 6 kg).

 

[Ffingers]

Thankyou for sharing your knowledge, bluesette, I'm finding it very useful, informative and - well - fascinating.
Please keep it up.

 

[Walker]

Another free bass parallel/mirrored C-sys (entry level) instrument is the hybrid bandoneon

This is an interesting addition to the conversation on free bass. I can understand that some musicians are happy to remove the stradella bass altogether. Indeed, the 'accordion', as an umbrella term can accommodate so many variations on the theme. I also have much admiration for the Bandoneon, and it's artistic potential, in the right hands. We could further the harmoneon study by a comparison with the Fisitalia Bayan-Ergo. However, the great accordion emporium of life has an endless list of innovations and the plurality of the accordion is a blessing. I would defend anyone's creative desires to make music and design all manner of accordions.​

However, I would simply like to give some praise to one system in particular. Even though this is a free bass thread, I believe the stradella 'standard' bass system is the closest we can get to a 'universal' system. Why does it matter? It has long-standing historical relevance, so it endures - it is not a fad that will die away. It also has true convenience as a genuine musical mechanism. And, to me, it brings the piano accordion and all manner of button accordions together. It is a unifying mechanism that helps to blur the 'in-group' and 'out-group' divide. With stradella system, so many of us have a common bond - if we can recognise it.

My philosophy of the accordion is conservative. I love the piano accordion with free bass (C system, Russian, Quint and MIII). I adore the button accordion with similar bass configurations (without being exhaustive). However, some people say, 'oh don't play X system only play Y, it's not common here, it will be hard to sell' etc. I say, no - play what makes you happy. Play beautiful music, and you can win even the harshest critic over. And if beautiful music does not work? It is their problem, not yours!

Many systems will come and go, but a few will endure in the fullness of time. I believe the instruments that survive will be the ones that are capable of expressing music to a high level and are systems that teachers and manufacturers are willing to promote. In a previous thread I suggested the possible geographical and historical links, that I believe have stood the test of time... and may give indications to the future.

Regardless of all this, what we really need in this world is good composers! Those who can write for the accordion and understand its quirks and characteristics. This is where the magic begins...

​