Fisitalia vs Petosa?

[Jennyt4778]

For sure! I have to say the Petosa checks more boxes, except for the price! Probably will wait to see if the price comes down on the cute Petosa Leopard or wait until there’s something more reasonable. The recs on this thread have been fantastic. I’m an amateur wanting to gain more knowledge and accordion skills, so thanks to everyone here. In addition to Fisitalia I now know about Ottaviallenis (sp) and others such as Bugaris(which I already have heard of)

 

[Jennyt4778]

I just don’t want to be paying excessive amounts of money for what I get, so thanks for all the specifications such as handmade reeds etc!!

 

[debra]

I just don’t want to be paying excessive amounts of money for what I get, so thanks for all the specifications such as handmade reeds etc!!

If you don't want to pay too much the first rule is to exclude as many parties in the whole process as possible. The Petosa is made by Zero Sette (which shares its factory with Bugari). It is not realistic to expect that Petosa will sell you the accordion for the amount of money Zero Sette gets for making it. So you get more bang for the buck if you buy a Zero Sette directly from the factory than if you buy a Petosa. With Fisitalia you can buy straight from the factory, and as it is a smaller outfit than Bugari/Zero-Sette they may be willing to sell for a bit less in order to have enough business. This not only applies to these brands. For several decades the Hohner Morino series was made by Excelsior in Italy despite many people believing they were made in Germany. I'm not sure what Hohner did in Germany (other than maybe stamping "Made in Germany" on the body...), but you can bet that Hohner was selling the Morino accordions for more money than Excelsior was selling them to them. You could buy a virtually identical Excelsior for less money, or a virtually identical Excelsior with better reeds for maybe about the same money... but Hohner certainly was adding its own "markup" on these accordions. It is such a "markup" you want to avoid. And when you buy through a dealer that dealer adds their own markup, but that may be well worth it if and only if you can get great service from that dealer. (There are dealers who cannot perform any service/repairs themselves and that rules them out as a party worth buying from.)

 

[petch]

I don't believe there's a dealer in the UK that offers enough service to warrant the 'dealer tax' (they'll happily sell you a £20,000+ converter accordion, not that they have any in stock and ready, but it'll be sent back to Italy should anything non-trivial need doing)

I've heard good things about Petosa though, so perhaps the extra cost is worth it to some

 

[Ventura]

well everyone wants to enjoy the luxury of a "Steinway" reputation

but how many have consistently paid the price to EARN and maintain
that reputation, and
therefore
enjoy a well deserved premium price for their product ?

it is up to you, the consumer with brains and some discretion to decide if
blue something reeds or curly african something tone chambers or whatever
other marketing point hammered home is legitimately mind-blowing and
will change the industry, as did many patents from Steinway (and Excelsior
and Titano etc. etc.) and which brands did NOT have any real industry contributions
making them all, basically, Steinway "pretenders"

but perception is all that is necessary to convince many, and pick their pockets

in between you have a few companies like Hohner, who DID pay their dues
in some areas, very legit, then in other offshoot areas cash in on their overall
reputation with tons and tons of high margin short lifespan products that
are marketable mostly due to association.. in recent times even Zildjian and
Steinway bought in to that concept, with Essex and Boston branded piano's
and several student and mid level quality cymbals, and only time will tell
if the loss of confidence all Musicians once had that every single Zildjian
cymbal made (and in fact ever made) is (well, was) #1 Professional Quality
(as an absolute fact.. which in my opinion was priceless and beyond value)
whereas now you have to know which label or color means what quality level cymbal

on the other hand, is it relatively impossible to get a "bad" petosa ?

so i would give them that at least

but there are still a few builders who will absolutely not allow anything
under their brand name to go out of their door short of being perfect

just as there are still a few rather well known dealers whose idea
of quality control is make sure the straps are attached properly and
every note does make a sound and each thing you might need to push
will actually move

caveat emptor

 

[Siegmund]

Some very good general advice from Paul about cutting out middlemen as much as you can. Just a couple small items of correction, having spoken to several companies about their dealer terms this past summer:

With Fisitalia you can buy straight from the factory, and as it is a smaller outfit than Bugari/Zero-Sette they may be willing to sell for a bit less in order to have enough business.

You can indeed buy direct from Fisitalia if you live far away from a dealer; else the factory will put you in contact with your territory's dealer, and refuse to sell directly to you. (In Europe a territory might be a whole country but in the US it might only be one state. There are many parts of the world where they have no dealer yet.)

And when you buy through a dealer that dealer adds their own markup...

A dealer can do that, if he chooses, and the market is willing to pay it.
However, many dealers are currently selling at prices quite far below the manufacturer's suggested price. For that Fisitalia 3734 in OP's first post, the factory would quote her about $4300 (4800 euros, converted to dollars, minus VAT not owed by a US customer) plus a few hundred for shipping. Would the factory sell to you for $3850 if you phoned them and asked? I do not know.

Some of the factories (not Fisitalia) give bigger discounts to high volume dealers than to small dealers. Some of these volume dealers are deliberately selling at very low prices, low enough that a small dealer cannot match their price, to stop anyone else from entering the market.

 

[debra]

Some very good general advice from Paul about cutting out middlemen as much as you can. Just a couple small items of correction, having spoken to several companies about their dealer terms this past summer:


You can indeed buy direct from Fisitalia if you live far away from a dealer; else the factory will put you in contact with your territory's dealer, and refuse to sell directly to you. (In Europe a territory might be a whole country but in the US it might only be one state. There are many parts of the world where they have no dealer yet.)


A dealer can do that, if he chooses, and the market is willing to pay it.
However, many dealers are currently selling at prices quite far below the manufacturer's suggested price. For that Fisitalia 3734 in OP's first post, the factory would quote her about $4300 (4800 euros, converted to dollars, minus VAT not owed by a US customer) plus a few hundred for shipping. Would the factory sell to you for $3850 if you phoned them and asked? I do not know.

Some of the factories (not Fisitalia) give bigger discounts to high volume dealers than to small dealers. Some of these volume dealers are deliberately selling at very low prices, low enough that a small dealer cannot match their price, to stop anyone else from entering the market.

I believe the reality of the Italian accordion world is that no matter where you live, if you show up at the factory (after appointment) and order and later pick up an accordion right there, most factories will let you do that. Of course you do not get their very best price as you order just one instrument, but still less than what dealers will charge. I have not yet done this, as I bought my accordions long ago, long before I started becoming more technical and capable of servicing my accordions without requiring an external technician.
I believe the main reason why a company like Fisitalia prefers that you go through a dealer is that the dealer then becomes responsible for handling warranty repairs. They don't want to be bothered with repairs but only want to be busy making new accordions.
Some manufacturers indeed use a price list with "manufacturer's suggested price". These prices are not realistic prices. They are numbers that allow dealers to quite easily give a discount of 20 to 30% which makes it look like the customer is getting a great deal. I know of just one dealer (to be avoided) who uses the price list and then offers a high trade-in value for your "old" accordion, which again makes it look like you are getting a good deal. (Another more honest dealer will sell you the same accordion for the same discounted price without you having to trade in anything.)
Finding a trustworthy dealer who will give you a fair deal and who offers great services (both in and out of warranty) can be quite hard. Such dealers are few and far between... But talking to other accordion players may get you started.

 

[Ffingers]

debra: "Finding a trustworthy dealer who will give you a fair deal and who offers great services (both in and out of warranty) can be quite hard."

Back into the world of hens' teeth and rockinghorse droppings there Paul.
They do exist, but generally do not advertise since they are fully engaged with their existing customers and with those referred to them by happy clients.

 

[Ventura]

when you consider most accordions come with those damn plastic ventilli
and you just know a few are going to pop off sticjk and a local "Dealer" should be
competent enough to address such a warranty repair

but i know Fisitalia does not mind taking care of warranty issues, or even
beyond that, having replaced a bellows for one customer becauuse
they didn't like the color of the tape once they got their order

and for which having a "go between" here in the states means mostly
having someone they can communicate with who speaks "accordion"
if not Italian, and whom they trust, to help the get the "solution" right
the first time

the other reason for a bulk discoiunt to the dealer is to encourage
them to have an actual inventory of physical models for people to actually
feel and try and see and play, as well as a legit Dealer is normally
going to make an effort.. even spend some money.. to promote
the "brand" in their market area

this too has been watered down quite a bit, as we see some Paper Tigers
advertizing, clearly, if you follow it, reveals a lot of what we nowadays call
"Vapor ware" meaning they only pretend to have something and pretend
it got sold already (if you inquire about that item) and show you something
else to but perhaps not even the same famous brand they used to
lure you in with

the ideal factory/distributor-dealer arrangement would be a rotating stock
of models on an investement of, perhaps, $25,000 minimum overall value
where the accordions were rotated back home if they didn't sell within 12 months
for fresh models

realistically, accordion sales are so slow and also often "to order"
for a customers preference that maintaining a viable actual inventory
is difficult if not financially impossible, which is why we lament the
loss of Castiglione, and the impact Alex had in his heydey of involvement with
his rolling store coming to your town for the local festivals and club events

of course Ottavianelli gave Alex some "protection" over his market area..
hell, without him who in the USA would have even ever heard of
Ottavianelli or G. Verde

but i doubt Bugari is "protecting" any of the Paper Tigers we see popping up
and making noise from time to time

it is confusing and difficult at times, but overall buying direct from Italy is easier and
far less of a risk than it was in the past, and a good result and happy camper is
the lilely result for anyone with a bit of stamina to make the deal

on a different level, todays typical "middleman" is simply Amazon or eBay with their
modest but enforceable blanket "guarantee" over all transactions and vendors

but there are few brands that offer a generic and unassuming product
at affordable pricing which average shoppers can feel comfortable buying,
so such places have more Hohner and Chinese shiny simple accordions for sale
though you could once get a Tula bayan direct from Amazon

Amazon.com: Tulskiy bayan Lightweight Tula Russian Button Accordion Beginner Kids 80 Bass BN-41 1687 Beautiful and Powerful Sound! incl. Straps, Case., black : Musical Instruments

Buy Tulskiy bayan Lightweight Tula Russian Button Accordion Beginner Kids 80 Bass BN-41 1687 Beautiful and Powerful Sound! incl. Straps, Case., black: Accordions - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

and who knows, after the War may get them again

even if Liberty Bellows grew enough to make a sizeable investment in new
inventory (other than bargain basement stuff) it would constitute an ouitsized
risk if they picked all the wrong colors for their factory bulk order

how would YOU like to be stuck with 50 bright orange Tigers ?

 

[debra]

...

even if Liberty Bellows grew enough to make a sizeable investment in new
inventory (other than bargain basement stuff) it would constitute an ouitsized
risk if they picked all the wrong colors for their factory bulk order

how would YOU like to be stuck with 50 bright orange Tigers ?

That's why I am a lifelong member of the "black accordions matter" movement (and no, that's not a real organization).
A store can never go wrong with an inventory of accordions in black (celluloid) with plain black bellows tape (and either
black red or white bellows fabric in the folds) and with black and white keys or buttons (and C and F textured on CBA).
I sometimes deal with a friendly accordion store and they do just that: an almost all black inventory except for some lower end (beginners) accordions.

 

[donn]

I didn't read close enough to know if it's still about the two initial options, but ... just want to question how much it's really possible to gauge the sound of a couple accordions, from a couple videos. Recording setup makes a big difference; playing makes a big difference. It's a whole lot better than nothing, to be sure.

 

[Ventura]

oh my donn, you are right, recordings (by the seller) can only tell you so much
and must be taken with a grain of salt

but we are here to try and help bridge the gap.. many of us have
played and heard so many brands and models we have a baseline
to work from

like in the area Jenny lives, well Seattle is the main retail hub for
accordions in large part due to Petosa, but also because they had
intense competition from Spano and others through the decades

There are a lot of (pre-owned) Tonaveri accordions in that region,
and typically ANY Tonaveri in nice condition you can get your hands
on will be a find and a blessing to own.

Diamond accordions were big in this area, well finished and tuned to
perfection (that was the importers forte)

Victoria had a direct dealer in the Portland region for a time

as you travel South then Columbo, and (San Francisco built) Guerrini
start showing up..

finding an excellent old accordion on the West Coast is certainly possible
with some patience and effort..

and Jenny, there was a stroller (smaller lighter) tone chamber top shelf reeds
branded Tonaveri model called "the Ranger" that would perhaps suit you perfectly

 

[Jennyt4778]

Thank you Ventura and all!! Sounds like knowing what to look out for can pay off !