Excelsior Symphony Grand (USA) Model Number?

[Alan Polivka]

Actually it's the exact same accordion, picture and all. I figured I could use the picture since I bought the accordion...

Thanks for a model number to go with the "Symphony Grand" name on the back .

Henry

I suspect the seller just accidentally omitted the word "Grand" when they listed it as a "Symphony 140" rather than a "Symphony Grand 140". I say that because Excelsior had both a Symphony model (4/5) and a Symphony Grand model (4/6), and the main difference was the number of bass shifts and number of bass reeds. The one pictured here has the greater number of bass shifts and presumably 6 sets of bass reeds, making it a "Grand". The "140" is simply the number of bass buttons, being different than the standard 120. I believe those early Symphony Grands only came in one standard model - they were just "Symphony Grand" - unless you ordered a customized version, like yours. The later Symphony Grands, with the same shift design as yours but square sound holes, had some variants, like "Citation", optional tone chamber, optional mute, etc. Based on the SN, I can tell you that your SG was made in 1950 (or a slight chance it was made in 1949 at the earliest). As you probably know, having 2 sets of bassoon reeds was generally considered a jazz feature. It's quite possible that your accordion has a wood foundation plate rather than the more common metal plate. I and probably some others in this forum would be interested to know if that is the case. I personally love the extra set of bass reeds because when I'm doing a strolling gig in a large restaurant, for example, the basses on most 4/5 accordions are a bit too weak.

 

[Henry D]

they were called Symphony 140's

The "Symphony 140" came from Jim D- I have no personal knowledge of that angle. I called it a "Symphony Grand" because that's what it is stamped in the celluloid! I had thought there might be some manufacturer's model number somewhere out there but beyond the basic "Symphony Grand" series ID the 140 bass/ LLMM reeds were apparently just built to order with no further formal ID. One probably existed in the factory logs when it was assembled.

It does indeed have a wood foundation plate.

I really relish the full sound of the double bassoon set. I tend to play mostly in the lowest octave in any case (view the higher notes as spices to the sound- and spices work best for me when given something to contrast against).

Best wishes-
Henry

 

[Squeezeplay]

I was just looking at an Excelsior Symphony Grand in supposedly "excellent" condition (aren't they all? ), on Facebook marketplace, it's in Toronto Ontario. Looks like the newer model with the gold touches (like Victor Wang on YouTube plays). They're asking $4500CA but is willing to negotiate. That's roughly $3150US. Offer the guy $3000-$3200US and I bet he would jump on it. Obviously if someone is interested they would be wise to call, hear it in action and of course get pics of the reed blocks, etc. if they are interested.

If that’s the one I saw there, it needs the bellows taped. If you look reasonably closely, you will see it. I checked that puppy out before I decided on one in waaay better shape for much less money. AND with a warranty.

 

[JerryPH]

Awesome, glad you found one that you liked enough to pay your hard earned cash on!

 

[Squeezeplay]

Yup, arriving next Wednesday, was scheduled for Monday, but I have an appointment I can’t change Monday. I had to delay it.
Comes from a reputable shop , with warranty. I have a friend who bought more than once there, he highly recommends them.

 

[Siyuan]

I realized this morning that I don't actually know what model number my Excelsior "Symphony Grand" is.

It has the arched BBBWBBWBBB 10 switches on the front with the coy register descriptions. (B black, W white) It has a LLMM configuration with no cassotto or mute. The cute names for the registers don't match up since one of the L reed blocks is where the H set would normally be but Excelsior had the names deeply stamped into the metal switch surround and evidently only carried one type of the trim plate- understandable. The LLMM configuration is as manufactured. Essentially no musette.

Extended keyboard F to B.

140 bass with seven register switches.

Has an oval metal plate with US, Italian, and Great Britain patents on the keyboard and also on the "Air Flow" design and the rocker switches.

Serial number is 9807 and it is stamped "Made in America" on the metal plate and "Made in USA" on the back of the bass section.

Stampings in the celluloid are crisp and clear. No hint of a model number, or signs that one might ever have been there.

I use it quite a bit. Thanks for any help.

PS It occurs to me that it is quite possibly a "custom" construction and as such may well not have a model number per se assigned by Excelsior!

Interestingly, I just get a similar Excelsior Symphony Grand model (serial # 9146) from old sweet Tony at the Forum.

It has same setting as yours, 43 keys, same configuration of treble and bass switches (although I’m not sure about the reeds configuration), except that mine has 120 bass instead of 140 bass (without the additional counter bass row).

The 120 bass makes it a different model from the listing at liberty bellows: https://www.libertybellows.com/shop...and-Piano-Accordion-LLMM-43-140-x63670421.htm

So I am curious if you experts can find any official info about this quite unique model?

I also wonder if anyone can tell the reeds configuration from the inside picture I attached (picture order: Treble reeds, bass reeds, outside)?




Thanks!

 

[Simon Max]

And I thought that the whole idea of "John Doe", is not to know the name.

 

[Henry D]

I also wonder if anyone can tell the reeds configuration from the inside picture I attached (picture order: Treble reeds, bass reeds, outside)?

Based both upon my own set up and your picture I believe your reed banks from the top to be low, medium, low, medium. In your picture the lower side of the sets on both the top and second blocks have the last few reeds without valves- a set of bassoon reeds would probaby have valves from end to end.

Blow right by the wishful thinking labels cast in to the polished metal surround for the switches. Excelsior seemingly only had one set of surrounds made up (no surprise when you think of it). I can't see the lower portion of your surround- it might be blank or correctly labeled for I can tell.

If it does not have the correct labling: the switching on mine (from the top to bottom) is LL, L, LM, LLM, MM, M, LLM, LL, MM, M. I do not recall if the duplicates are exact duplicates, or if- for example, the two LLM 's use an alternate M set. The reeds are close enough to unison tuned that there is no real audible difference in tuning that is apparant to me so they really are duplicates for most intents adn purposes if not actually so.

I would think yours are a match for those on mine. My mildly hokey solution is below. I used the small "jewels" for tactile feedback when using the switches while playing- I frequently change accordions and so it takes me several minutes to refamiliarize myself with the switches on a given accordion- weak mind...

Good luck with it and happy playing.

Apologies for typos.

 

[Henry D]

And I thought that the whole idea of "John Doe", is not to know the name.

I'm greviously personally insulted- what on earth would make you think that my name isn't actually "John Doe"...





(Henry)

 

[Alan Polivka]

This is the standard Symphony Grand reed configuration LMMH on the right hand and 6 sets of reeds on the left hand. The right-hand reed blocks you see in the top photo have the following arrangement (in the same order as shown in the photo):
H - white keys
M - white keys
L - white keys
M - white keys
H - black keys
M - black keys
L - black keys
M - black keys.

 

[Siyuan]

Based both upon my own set up and your picture I believe your reed banks from the top to be low, medium, low, medium. In your picture the lower side of the sets on both the top and second blocks have the last few reeds without valves- a set of bassoon reeds would probaby have valves from end to end.

Blow right by the wishful thinking labels cast in to the polished metal surround for the switches. Excelsior seemingly only had one set of surrounds made up (no surprise when you think of it). I can't see the lower portion of your surround- it might be blank or correctly labeled for I can tell.

If it does not have the correct labling: the switching on mine (from the top to bottom) is LL, L, LM, LLM, MM, M, LLM, LL, MM, M. I do not recall if the duplicates are exact duplicates, or if- for example, the two LLM 's use an alternate M set. The reeds are close enough to unison tuned that there is no real audible difference in tuning that is apparant to me so they really are duplicates for most intents adn purposes if not actually so.

I would think yours are a match for those on mine. My mildly hokey solution is below. I used the small "jewels" for tactile feedback when using the switches while playing- I frequently change accordions and so it takes me several minutes to refamiliarize myself with the switches on a given accordion- weak mind...

Good luck with it and happy playing.

Apologies for typos.

Thanks Henry (almost typed 'John', haha) for the clarification!

If I understand you correctly, my model is essentially a Excelsior Symphony Grand with the same 4/5 LLMM reeds configuration as yours and the liberty bellow listing.

Although I still cannot recognize the number of reed sets are with the bass side. How many sets of reeds are with the bass?

Here's a few basic questions about the setting and ordering of reeds:
1. What would one set of reeds look like? is one piece of wood block with one or two sides of reeds defined as 'one reed set', like the low or medium reeds set that appears with the treble site?
2. If 'one set of reeds' is defined as 'one whole wood block' , then the treble side will have four sets of reeds (LLMM, which is correct), but the bass side will then have four sets of reeds too, instead of five (as in its description). So I probably didn't understand this correctly.
3. on the other side, if 'one set of reeds' is defined as 'one side of reeds on a wood block', then the treble side will have eight sets (eight sides), while the bass side will have six sets of reeds (six sides). Since Tony told me this is actually a 4/6 reeds configuration, I am even more confused....

Thanks!

 

[Siyuan]

This is the standard Symphony Grand reed configuration LMMH on the right hand and 6 sets of reeds on the left hand. The right-hand reed blocks you see in the top photo have the following arrangement (in the same order as shown in the photo):
H - white keys
M - white keys
L - white keys
M - white keys
H - black keys
M - black keys
L - black keys
M - black keys.

Hi Alan,

Thanks for Clarifying!

Your answer matches with what Tony told me (a 4/6 reed configuration) makes sense to me, since the number of reeds that appears on those reed blocks approximately match with the number of black and white keys.

Although can you explain why there are 19 reeds on the reed blocks for black keys, but on the keyboard there are only 18 keys? on the contrary, there are 24 reeds on the reed blocks for white keys, while on the keyboard there are 25 keys. Is it possible that the additional reed on 'black-key' reed blocks is for white keys?

As I asked in response to Henry, I also wonder how did you tell the number of reed blocks/sets on left hand? 6 sets make sense to me, since each 'side' of a wood block include 12 reeds, which is the number of diatonic keys on bass.

If you are right about the 4/6 reed configuration of my model, then it is possible that:
1. my model is essentially a Black Excelsior Symphony Grand 41 keys 4/6 LMMH, except that: a. mine does not have the mute switch, b. has two additional keys, c. has a different look on grill

If Henry was right that it is a 4/5 LLMM, then it is possible that:
my model is essentially a Black Excelsior Symphony Grand 43 key 4/5 LLMM, except that: mine is 120 bass instead of 140 bass.

A third possibility is that my model is LLMM on the treble, and has 6 sets of reeds on bass, which makes a 4/6 LLMM. This means either I am having a very rare model not listed much, or that the listing of Black Excelsior Symphony Grand 43 keys 4/5 LLMM is incorrect, and should actually be 43 keys 4/6 LLMM.

With all these possibilities, we need historians who knows what has been produced by Excelsior in 50s!

Thanks!

 

[dak]

Is it possible that the additional reed on 'black-key' reed blocks is for white keys?

That is quite usual.

 

[Alan Polivka]

As DAK says, it is quite common for one of the white key notes to be on the black key blocks.

Based on its serial number, your SG was likely made in 1950. That was before they changed to the grill design that was used throughout most of the 1950s. I've never seen one with the early grill design like yours that has a mute. Your grill design gives a brighter sound than the later, more common grill.

There is no doubt that it has 4/6 reed configuration, as in all SGs.

RH blocks are a bit different than LH reed blocks in that all 12 LH reeds are on one side of one block whereas the white key and black key reeds for the RH require 2 blocks.

It is not a 4/5 and it is not LLMM. All SGs were 4/6. It was the Symphony model (not "Grand") that was 4/5. You have the top of the line model of that time, which is a Symphony GRAND.

 

[Henry D]

Mr. P is probably absolutely correct.

I misunderstood your original post to indicate that you already knew it was an LLMM and you simply wondered which sets of reeds were where. If that is not the case then the H reeds are normally on the top side of the top block.

The switching in a nomal LMMH would simply subsitute one of the L's for a P. (IE: LH vice LL) Excelsior insisted on the coy voices marking approach to their registers through the fifties- one reason why the old Symphony LMMH four rockers are such a pleasure it's immediatly clear what you get when switching.

There are clearly six sets in the LH on your instrument.

 

[Alan Polivka]

Mr. P is probably absolutely correct.

I misunderstood your original post to indicate that you already knew it was an LLMM and you simply wondered which sets of reeds were where. If that is not the case then the H reeds are normally on the top side of the top block.

The switching in a nomal LMMH would simply subsitute on of the L's for a P. Excelsior insisted on the coy voices naking approach to their registers through the fifties- one reason why the old Symphony LMMH four rockers are such a pleasure.

There are clearly six sets in the LH.

Yes, the rocker boxes were indeed a pleasure. That's why I have a dozen or so of them. Great accordions and light enough for a full 3 hours of strolling.

 

[Siyuan]

As DAK says, it is quite common for one of the white key notes to be on the black key blocks.

Based on its serial number, your SG was likely made in 1950. That was before they changed to the grill design that was used throughout most of the 1950s. I've never seen one with the early grill design like yours that has a mute. Your grill design gives a brighter sound than the later, more common grill.

There is no doubt that it has 4/6 reed configuration, as in all SGs.

RH blocks are a bit different than LH reed blocks in that all 12 LH reeds are on one side of one block whereas the white key and black key reeds for the RH require 2 blocks.

It is not a 4/5 and it is not LLMM. All SGs were 4/6. It was the Symphony model (not "Grand") that was 4/5. You have the top of the line model of that time, which is a Symphony GRAND.

Thanks for confirming! Happy to know how good a model I am possessing (also thanks to Tony)!

All SGs were 4/6. It was the Symphony model (not "Grand") that was 4/5.

If this is certain, this SG with 4/5 LLMM is probably listed with wrong parameters.

 

[Alan Polivka]

Thanks for confirming! Happy to know how good a model I am possessing (also thanks to Tony)!


If this is certain, this SG with 4/5 LLMM is probably listed with wrong parameters.

Yep.

 

[Alan Polivka]

John Doe, you are clearly knowledgeable about Excelsiors. What can you tell me about the evolution of the reeds over the years of rocker box production? I ask because while they all seemed to have very good reeds (based on playing my collection of all standard rocker models from the 30's through the early 50's) it seems that the latest models seem to have even better reeds than the earlier models.

 

[Henry D]

What can you tell me about the evolution of the reeds over the years of rocker box production? I ask because while they all seemed to have very good reeds (based on playing my collection of all standard rocker models from the 30's through the early 50's) it seems that the latest models seem to have even better reeds than the earlier models.

I'd love to help if I could but I really don't have a sufficient sampling of Excelsiors from that period to offer anything beyond pure, wild, speculation. Things on these sites tend to get cited over the years as facts and I just don't want to muddy things up.

I do like the rocker box set up though. For a player who frequently switches registers in mid bar it might be awkward- but for most it really is the bee's knees...