Effect of frame material on sound

[stickista]

ok, I’ve searched this forum carefully and can’t find a clear answer to this question...
What effect does the material used for the body/frame of an accordion or bandoneon have on the tone of the instrument? Does the body contribute to vibrations in the same way as the body of a violin, or is it primarily structural, just needing strength to support the pull of bellows and pushing of buttons/keys?
And do the bellows contribute to sound quality?
Or is tone mainly a function of the reeds and reed blocks?

Thanks!

 

[fphlpsnrg]

ok, I’ve searched this forum carefully and can’t find a clear answer to this question...
What effect does the material used for the body/frame of an accordion or bandoneon have on the tone of the instrument? Does the body contribute to vibrations in the same way as the body of a violin, or is it primarily structural, just needing strength to support the pull of bellows and pushing of buttons/keys?
And do the bellows contribute to sound quality?
Or is tone mainly a function of the reeds and reed blocks?

Thanks!

Julio Giulietti and I had a discussion about this in the early 1980s after Scientific American published an article on the effects of woods used by Stradivarius on the resonance of harmonics in the body of the instrument. First of all, the woods used by Stradivarius are no longer available since the woods were taken from a type of spruce that grew during Europes little ice age of the 15th-17th centuries. But the little ice age theory needs to be amended by considering the type of varnish Stradivarius used, which actually broke down the super tight structure of the wood. After all, the same type of wood was available to French and German violin makers at the time. Enough speculative background. Mr. Giulietti thought it didnt make any difference. My unfortunate degree in science, led me to argue that the material in the case and frame has a profound effect on the resonance of frequencies generated by the reeds. A couple of years after that, Victoria introduced accordions made with solid and acoustic woods. See https://www.accordions.it/en/accordions/poeta-bottoni-cromatic-converter/. Of course any effect of the material used depends upon the environment where the instrument is used, for example, a Cajun festival vs. a conservatory performance chamber.

 

[stickista]

I guess my problem with the comparison to violins is that on a violin, the actual sound is being produced by the thin wooden top which is being vibrated by the string. 
On an accordion the tone is being generated by a reed and shaped/amplified within its chamber of the reed block. The structural box that holds the keys and reed blocks and connects to the bellows is not made of thin resonating material, but of fairly thick, strong structural material.
So I’m not sure I buy that the case does much more than perhaps absorb or bounce sound waves. And not through a hollow space at that, but through one filled with levers, rods, and other metal and wood surfaces of the reeds and blocks.
Seems that there would be ample accordion-maker lore out there that says “Oh, for sure... the box absolutely contributes to the quality of the sound.” But I’m just not finding that assertion clearly out there.

 

[maugein96]

I guess my problem with the comparison to violins is that on a violin, the actual sound is being produced by the thin wooden top which is being vibrated by the string. 
On an accordion the tone is being generated by a reed and shaped/amplified within its chamber of the reed block. The structural box that holds the keys and reed blocks and connects to the bellows is not made of thin resonating material, but of fairly thick, strong structural material.
So I’m not sure I buy that the case does much more than perhaps absorb or bounce sound waves. And not through a hollow space at that, but through one filled with levers, rods, and other metal and wood surfaces of the reeds and blocks.
Seems that there would be ample accordion-maker lore out there that says “Oh, for sure... the box absolutely contributes to the quality of the sound.” But I’m just not finding that assertion clearly out there.

I dont know enough about all of the theory concerned to join in on the technical parts of the discussion, but what I can tell you is that Cavagnolo describe the difference between their carbon fibre and wooden bodied instruments thus (translated via Google translate):-

Today accordions made of carbon fiber are a great success, and Cavagnolo masters this element with multiple advantageous properties. Whether in aeronautics, luxury cars or in the world of classical stringed instruments, carbon has proved in recent years that it was one of the essential noble and qualitative materials. The impact on our instruments has exceeded all our expectations. The unbeatable weight factor is part of its strengths, not to mention the robustness and excellent rigidity. This natural rigidity will have a direct consequence on the power and precision of the sound. In contrast to a wooden case, the carbon will not absorb the frequencies produced by the blades of the accordion. In comparison with a traditional model,

Precisely what that means is beyond my comprehension of accordion construction, but they are saying there is a marked difference between carbon fibre and wood covered in celluloid, or whatever. I have listened to You Tube recordings of both types and my 66 year old ears cannot tell the difference. Im guessing that carbon fibre instruments are supposed to offer a brighter sound, but Cavagnolo were always more famous for subtle rather than loud. 

Ive played on three different brand new Cavagnolo accordions, identical except for their colour, and no two of them sounded alike. Ive always been told that the sound differential is down to the individuality of the reeds and their unique tuning, and if you get three players to try out the same instrument no two will get precisely the same sound from it, whether the case is made of wood, corrugated iron, or even the noble carbon fibre.  

Youll notice from the Cavagnolo blurb that weight appears to take a slightly higher priority than sound (in 2019). 

 

[jozz]

There are no clear answers, only opinions.

I guess only the reed block and sound board are really shaping the tone in a way that the material matters to some degree. Some boards are made of metal, where the rest of the cabinet is (ply)wood.

 

[debra]

I guess my problem with the comparison to violins is that on a violin, the actual sound is being produced by the thin wooden top which is being vibrated by the string. 
On an accordion the tone is being generated by a reed and shaped/amplified within its chamber of the reed block. The structural box that holds the keys and reed blocks and connects to the bellows is not made of thin resonating material, but of fairly thick, strong structural material.
So I’m not sure I buy that the case does much more than perhaps absorb or bounce sound waves. And not through a hollow space at that, but through one filled with levers, rods, and other metal and wood surfaces of the reeds and blocks.
Seems that there would be ample accordion-maker lore out there that says “Oh, for sure... the box absolutely contributes to the quality of the sound.” But I’m just not finding that assertion clearly out there.

The assertion that the box and the quality of the wood used contributes to the sound can easily be obtained from Victoria. I'm not saying that much of the claim is true but they are pushing "pure wood" boxes and brag about using special woods used by violin makers. They sure make very nice sounding boxes but their traditional ones with celluloid are also nice sounding boxes.
That the box contributes to the sound is very clear when you hear a Hohner Atlantic. The metalbau (case made from metal instead of wood) leads to a sharper tone, liked by some and hated by others, but clearly different from accordions with a wooden box.
What actually contributes the most to the sound (apart from reeds and reed blocks) are the parts of the accordion that determine the path the sound and air travel before coming out of the accordion. The best known part is of course the cassotto, but there is also significant influence by the grille. The clearest way to hear this is by taking a non-cassotto Giulietti accordion. The Giulietti grille is partly solid (metal) and has an oval-shaped opening for the sound. The reed blocks for the white keys (minus highest E) are under the solid part and those for the black keys are under the opening. The resulting sound is clearly more mellow for the white keys and sharper for the black keys. Other accordions have this effect to a lesser extent due to a more open grille but you can still hear the effect of the register mechanism "blocking" the sound of the reed blocks on that side a bit.
My conclusion from the many accordions I have seen, played and/or worked on is that there are several parts of the accordion construction that have much greater influence on the sound than which wood was used and how thin or thick that is. But some people may still hear the minute differences caused by using different wood and small differences in the shape of the box as well...

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I guess my problem with the comparison to violins is that on a violin, the actual sound is being produced by the thin wooden top which is being vibrated by the string. 
On an accordion the tone is being generated by a reed and shaped/amplified within its chamber of the reed block. The structural box that holds the keys and reed blocks and connects to the bellows is not made of thin resonating material, but of fairly thick, strong structural material.
So I’m not sure I buy that the case does much more than perhaps absorb or bounce sound waves. And not through a hollow space at that, but through one filled with levers, rods, and other metal and wood surfaces of the reeds and blocks.
Seems that there would be ample accordion-maker lore out there that says “Oh, for sure... the box absolutely contributes to the quality of the sound.” But I’m just not finding that assertion clearly out there.

The assertion that the box and the quality of the wood used contributes to the sound can easily be obtained from Victoria. I'm not saying that much of the claim is true but they are pushing "pure wood" boxes and brag about using special woods used by violin makers. They sure make very nice sounding boxes but their traditional ones with celluloid are also nice sounding boxes.
That the box contributes to the sound is very clear when you hear a Hohner Atlantic. The metalbau (case made from metal instead of wood) leads to a sharper tone, liked by some and hated by others, but clearly different from accordions with a wooden box.
What actually contributes the most to the sound (apart from reeds and reed blocks) are the parts of the accordion that determine the path the sound and air travel before coming out of the accordion. The best known part is of course the cassotto, but there is also significant influence by the grille. The clearest way to hear this is by taking a non-cassotto Giulietti accordion. The Giulietti grille is partly solid (metal) and has an oval-shaped opening for the sound. The reed blocks for the white keys (minus highest E) are under the solid part and those for the black keys are under the opening. The resulting sound is clearly more mellow for the white keys and sharper for the black keys. Other accordions have this effect to a lesser extent due to a more open grille but you can still hear the effect of the register mechanism "blocking" the sound of the reed blocks on that side a bit.
My conclusion from the many accordions I have seen, played and/or worked on is that there are several parts of the accordion construction that have much greater influence on the sound than which wood was used and how thin or thick that is. But some people may still hear the minute differences caused by using different wood and small differences in the shape of the box as well...

   ... and Beltuna is experimenting with carbon fiber which doesn't resonate at all, as far as I've been told ...

 

[donn]

I guess my problem with the comparison to violins is that on a violin, the actual sound is being produced by the thin wooden top which is being vibrated by the string.

Exactly, and yet this association between material and sound is practically universal to musical instruments, whether theres any rational reason for it or not. Trombone players swear that the color of brass makes a difference (I mean, the brass alloy, which will look different depending on the amount of copper, but no one cares about the difference between brass alloys that dont look different.) Electric bass players believe that their solid wood slab will produce a different sound if its made of ash, than if its made of maple, etc. They all know this for a fact, because theyve heard it.

Were artists, arent we? We do what we have to do, and while it may not make sense on a strictly rational level, ultimately no one expects it to. Still, I kind of hate to see people convincing each other that theres a need to worry about things that are really unlikely to make a difference. As maugein points out, there are already real differences between individual accordions off the same factory line, so in the end, if were that demanding, were going to have to select an individual example in person. You cant pick that sound from the kind of information that would be presented in a catalogue - materials, etc.

 

[debra]

That is a very essential part of choosing an accordion indeed!
What we did was visit the Frankfurter Musikmesse and try lots of accordions. That way we could choose an accordion model based on feel and sound, both as player and as audience. Sound and feel cannot be presented in a catalogue.
and sure there are still differences between individual instruments of the same model or line, but these are not very much due to differences between individual pieces of wood. The differences come from manufacturers making undocumented changes. I have seen three or four different makes of reeds in otherwise identical accordions. I have seen leather valves (with medal booster springs) in one and synthetic leather with plastic boosters in another one (and I can assure you that these synthetic leather valves with plastic boosters are not nearly as good and cause problems over time...).
I have also seen in the same series that bass mechanisms (with convertor) change over time, and one time you can get a reliable mechanism and the next time you get a very delicate mechanism that requires tweaking to prevent buttons from sticking... Again nothing about the change documented anywhere.
And then there are things that are mentioned in catalogues but that are just sales blurb. For instance, there is no such thing as "turbo reeds" (there is no turbo in any accordion), so an accordion with "turbo reeds" has reeds that are different in some way but the manufacturer isn't saying what it is, inventing a nonsense term instead. (I have a pretty good idea what the "turbo reeds" really are, but no thanks to anything published by any accordion maker.)
Despite all these differences accordions of the same line of models by one manufacturer still sound much more alike than any two accordions from different manufacturers...

 

[StargazerTony]

Reading through this very interesting thread, I’ve come to reinforce the conclusion that I’ve always held. An accordion, and I think most musical instruments, are the sums of all their parts, each one being slightly different. A major part of any instrument is, of course, the player. My instructor can play my accordion and sound so much better with it than when I play. Of course he’s had decades more experience playing than I have. 

The major part of accordion is how it sounds, to you. Not when your playing it, but when you hear someone else play it. One can’t hear how an accordion really sounds while playing it but needs to be its audience to get a true idea of its sound. 

Wood, metal, celluloid, aluminum, plastic, carbon fiber, turbo reeds, turbo buttons, specially designed grills, adjustable openings, advanced bellows, longer, lower, wider are [font=Roboto, HelveticaNeue, Arial, sans-serif]Hyperbole if the instrument sounds like junk. [/font]

 

[stickista]

This has been a great discussion. Thanks to everyone for their input. 

FWIW, the reason behind the question...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/bCUwYNbvxEFsL1i2A
(Click again if you get an error. Google photo sharing is flakey.)

I got a pristine ‘basic Geuns Hybrid’ into Harry’s hands for an upgrade several months ago. As always happens, his basic upgrade morphed into a complete replacement/upgrade of every component of the instrument except for the box, hence the question. I’m sure that the box is celluloid covered plywood, even if it is a quality plywood. So there’s been the nagging question of whether I’ve been putting the proverbial lipstick on a pig, and expensive lipstick at that.
My conclusion is that i’m not worried and think it’s going to sound great.
Details:
Replaced bellows with custom blue Paua 3 section bellows
Complete replaced all action with that from his pro model
Felt liners on all Button holes
Completely replaced all 6 reed blocks with new ones designed to hold 8’+8’ MM tipo a mano Italian reeds, very dry tuned. 
Harry still insisted on using 8’+4’ For the lowest octave in order to reduce attack lag. I trust his judgement on that.
The goal is a jazz instrument, more along the lines of a Marc Berthoumieux sound. (Of course I’ll be installing a stereo internal mic system on it.)
Just waiting for the reed waxing and tuning over the next month. 
I’ll post clips when I get it.

Edit:
Just found an old correspondence with Harry where he identified the wood.
“The case is made of tulip wood (latin name: Liriodendron) covered with black (camphor- cellulose) sheet common for accordions.”

 

[jozz]

so you have real classy wood, shiny bits and nothing to worry about!

 

[StargazerTony]

A really nice job. The only relevant question then is “do you like it?

 

[debra]

It will be interesting to hear what the reconstructed hybrid bandoneon will sound like. The rather closed nature of the case will have significant influence on the sound (much like the bass enclosure does on an accordion. But the use of accordion reeds instead of bandoneon reeds should also have significant influence.

 

[stickista]

It will be interesting to hear what the reconstructed hybrid bandoneon will sound like. The rather closed nature of the case will have significant influence on the sound (much like the bass enclosure does on an accordion. But the use of accordion reeds instead of bandoneon reeds should also have significant influence.

Well, there’s nothing unusual about the way it ports sound. All bandoneons aim sound directly left and right and the grills are pretty standard. (Actually, there is more RH grill on the hybrids than traditional because there is grill where buttons normally are.)
I actually think that may be a benefit in not assaulting those directly in front of me. 
At this point a lot of this is a bit of a crap shoot. Fingers crossed, but Harry has been good about waving me off any patently stupid design decisions.

 

[Dingo40]

ok, I’ve searched this forum carefully and can’t find a clear answer to this question...
What effect does the material used for the body/frame of an accordion or bandoneon have on the tone of the instrument? Does the body contribute to vibrations in the same way as the body of a violin, or is it primarily structural, just needing strength to support the pull of bellows and pushing of buttons/keys?
And do the bellows contribute to sound quality?
Or is tone mainly a function of the reeds and reed blocks?

Thanks!

Considering that not only does the whole accordion resonate when playing but my whole chest, as well as a nearby piano, how can it be otherwise than the material of which the accordion is constructed has an effect on the “timbre” of the resulting sound? :huh: