don't reed this if you want to avoid hand-made controversy

[oldbayan]

Of course there is the undeniably true psychological factor: the accordion may be more fun, more loved, more played because of some attribute that may or may not be detectable in sound or playability - handmade reeds, brand, age, country of origin, price, etc.

Most people when they get their first anything (car, accordion, trumpet, guitar...) are not too worried about the origin or condition of it, and are focused on the fun of learning and using it.

Then comes the time when the search for the perfect thing comes, and the belief that if they had a better accordion, they would play better From that point on, happiness is gone and it's a life of misery and disillusion... ?

 

[Tom]

Most people when they get their first anything (car, accordion, trumpet, guitar...) are not too worried about the origin or condition of it, and are focused on the fun of learning and using it.

Then comes the time when the search for the perfect thing comes, and the belief that if they had a better accordion, they would play better From that point on, happiness is gone and it's a life of misery and disillusion... ?

You nailed it Old.... ....but then there is the phase of redemption where our erstwhile accordionist recognizes the syndrome of which you speak, becomes one with his/her chosen instrument, having absorbed the old saw "if you are not happy with the instrument you have, you will not be happy with the instrument you desire." This phase is called "buddhism." However, then we move into phase 3 where all concerns of instrument quality and choice are overcome by concerns of "why does my hip/back/hand/neck hurt when I've played for 30 minutes and why can't I remember these tunes for more than 20 minutes?" Phase 2 can be overcome by choice, phase 3 is inevitable. Finding the joy and sharing it with others before (the unmentionable) phase 4 is our real mission.

 

[Ventura]

with most people who are always promoting the Handmade
Reed theories, truthfully literally none of them have any actual
sense of how DIFFICULT and incredibly TIME CONSUMING
and mostly POORLY PAID it was and is to hand make a full set of reeds,

NOR

any sense as to how FEW reedmakers who truly knew their
craft survived WW2

NOR

any understanding about the mass exodus from small towns the
baby boom era generation in Italy followed
(making it literally impossible to continue the apprentice system)

there are no physical metrics you can really count on and very very
little printed Records that survived or are searchable and available

which is why it is imperative, if you TRULY want to know if your reeds are
at that high a quality level, to LEARN HOW TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE
by playing and feeling and listening to them

that is my story and i am stickin to it

 

[Alan Sharkis]

... which brings us to another source of confusion — namely the manufacturer or seller of an accordion, some of who’s reeds are handmade and some are not. It is rare, indeed, for an accordion to have all of its reeds hand bmade and matched. So, if accordion X is advertised as having hand made reeds, and some of its reeds are not hand made, yet it still manages to have that magnificent timbre and playability we all yearn for, who cares?

 

[jozz]

Damn it! - back at phase 1

Got stuck because I caught a glimpse of my 'perfect' instrument on ebay.

 

[craigd]

In the end it's how the reeds perform that matters, eh? Nice to think that some highly skilled and experienced craftsman patiently crafted each of our reeds by hand, putting his soul and a tradition stretching back generations into the voices of our instruments. Maybe that happened, or maybe it was a machine, that's part of the mystery. Now what about the reed blocks, how important are they to the sound?

 

[saundersbp]

Apparently hand made reeds are all about the sound...

- which of these (1, 2 or 3) has hand made reeds?
- which do you like most?
- which is the vintage hohner cassotto?

 

[Gonk]

I'd guess 2 - cassotto, 3 - handmade reeds... and I prefer 2.

Microphone type and placement is another huge rabbit hole, of course...

 

[craigd]

Middle is probably cassotto. They all sound like harmonicas to me! Like when you pulled a fast one on us with three Piginis. I'm trying to guess what your trick is here. You'll tell us these are actually all foot-made reeds.

 

[Dingo40]

SaundersBP,
Although, to me, all three sound somewhat different, they're all acceptable, and I have no idea which is which!
I once read a book on the theme "believing is seeing " ( as opposed to "seeing is believing ")
I was persuaded there was truth in that theory.
I'm also inclined to believe that "believing is hearing ".
I hope you you haven't pulled your previous trick of including a melodica in your lineup???
I quite like them all, but #2 sounds the most mellow to me.?

 

[debra]

Apparently hand made reeds are all about the sound...

- which of these (1, 2 or 3) has hand made reeds?
- which do you like most?
- which is the vintage hohner cassotto?

Number 1 is a melodica.
Number 2 is an accordion with cassotto.
Number 3 is an accordion using reeds not in cassotto (no way of telling whether it has cassotto).
It could well be that number 2 and 3 are the same accordion, 2 being M in cassotto and 3 being M outside of cassotto.
The reason I'm saying this is that is that the way the sound changes on the highest 2 notes is very similar between them.
To tell whether an accordion has hand-made reeds the response at low volume is most important, but that is not something we can hear in these samples.

 

[McSqueeze]

The mellowness of 2 suggests cassotto.
The brightness of 3 suggests hand made.
If I had to choose one I'd prefer 3 they are all OK depending on the music one is playing.

 

[debra]

Let me throw something else in the mix here: the sound of an accordion is also determined by the reed blocks and the valves. Reed blocks aside (they determine the overall sound to a large extent) the valves potentially have influence, mostly in a negative way. When valves are new and properly installed (not glued too far up the reed) and when leather valves have the proper booster springs with just enough tension, then the reed should sound fine. When the booster spring is too strong the reed will have trouble starting and will start low. When the valved has too large a glued area then the valve won't open properly and the sound will be muffled. There is less of a risk of the valves interfering with the sound when plastic valves are used, especially on higher notes. Which is why more and more manufacturers have abandoned leather valves on high notes. On lower notes leather valves make less noise and that's one of the reasons leather is prefered. (A good seal is another reason.)

 

[debra]

The mellowness of 2 suggests cassotto.
The brightness of 3 suggests hand made.
If I had to choose one I'd prefer 3 they are all OK depending on the music one is playing.

Interesting that you say this (the brightness comment). The most mellow non-cassotto accordion I ever heard was a Bugari 504/ARS/C. I guess the hand-made reeds contributed to that. My experience has generally been that machine reeds often have a "sharper" sound than hand-made reeds. But as the difference between cassotto and non-cassotto already shows other aspects of the accordion are much more important for determining how bright an instrument will sound.
If you like a really bright sound, take a Jupiter from bayanjupiter.com (the ones with the star in the O). They are so bright it is painful to the ears. If you want a nice sound, take a Jupiter with the open O, from Russia, or better, an AKKO. Of course you can also get an Italian Bugari bayan for nice mellow sound or a Pigini bayan for a brighter (sharper) sound...

 

[Dingo40]

"...or better, an Akko..."
See here:
?
More particulars:

 

[saundersbp]

Thanks for all the guesses and being good sports!

There were three clips and the purpose was like last time to see who heard the cassotto sound. Being scrupulously honest I gave a clue and said "vintage hohner cassotto". I didn't specify it was an accordion! It was there to put the idea of cassotto in the mind so the ear heard it.

Clips two and three are the same reed on the same instrument (I'm sure not hand made reeds) and this is the interesting bit based on what people heard and liked. Clip two has vehicle sound proofing material taped behind the grill (specialised stuff I'm using on a camper van I'm converting containing metal on one side and rubber on the other) and it dramatically mellows the sound without drastically cutting the volume, a far better effect than trusty felt or an old towel. If you want a mellower tone, this is an extremely cheap method!

Number 1


Number 3


Number 2, the accordion above plus



If you want to try the material just tape it in with masking tape; removing the sticky stuff will fix it rock solid!

Sound Deadening Dodo Mat DEADN ® Hex 3 Sheets 3sq.ft Car Vibration Proofing | eBay

Dodo Mat DEADN ® Hex is a self adhesive, foil backed sound deadening vibration damper. New 2021 "DEADN" formulation for enhanced performance. To maintain flexibility and ease of cutting we also employ our unique Hex embossing pattern.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[debra]

Thanks for all the guesses and being good sports!

There were three clips and the purpose was like last time to see who heard the cassotto sound. Being scrupulously honest I gave a clue and said "vintage hohner cassotto". I didn't specify it was an accordion! It was there to put the idea of cassotto in the mind so the ear heard it.

...

Thanks for the challenge and the result.
I'm glad I recognized that 2 and 3 were likely the same accordion, because of the way the tone/brightness changed on the high notes (Bb and C).
It is true that some sound proofing material (I have used felt, but as you point out you can do better) will make the sound more mellow without making it (much) less loud. However, if you have a cassotto it will make the sound not just more mellow but also louder. On demand of accordion performers manufacturers have constantly been on a quest for generating more volume, and the cassotto proved to be a very effective way to achieve that goal. Beltuna later came up with the "amplisound" extra cassotto chamber, making the accordion louder still.
One of the new Italian things to increase volume is "parallel reeds", where the tip of the reed isn't narrower than the base, something the Russians have been doing (for lower notes) for decades. Comparing my Italian Hohner Artiste XS and Bugari 508/ARS/C and the Russian AKKO (Super de luxe) I have guestimated that the Bugari is about 3dB louder than the Hohner and the AKKO is again 3dB louder than the Bugari.
Nowadays of course volume isn't everything as we have electric amplifiers, but in the earlier days of only "unplugged" performance every bit of extra volume counted. Which is why cassotto has won over soundproofing or felt or a sordina to make the sound more mellow, despite a cassotto making an accordion quite a bit more expensive.

 

[Zevy]

Number 1 is a melodica.
Number 2 is an accordion with cassotto.
Number 3 is an accordion using reeds not in cassotto (no way of telling whether it has cassotto).
It could well be that number 2 and 3 are the same accordion, 2 being M in cassotto and 3 being M outside of cassotto.
The reason I'm saying this is that is that the way the sound changes on the highest 2 notes is very similar between them.
To tell whether an accordion has hand-made reeds the response at low volume is most important, but that is not something we can hear in these samples.

Ditto!

 

[McSqueeze]

On the subject of volume, when I was a teenager in Scotland during the 1950s Ranco accordions were the instrument of choice amongst professional players. Here is an excerpt from "The History Of Ranco Accordions" that might be of interest.

"The reed plates were made from Duralium, not aluminium. This metal gives a far better tone to the instrument than any other metal. The reed tongues were Swiss cobalt steel. The reed plates were fitted to the bare wood and were pinned and glued - no wax was used. A thin acoustic membrane placed on the solid wood of the casework increased the tonal strength of the instrument to a considerable extent. With these features the sound could penetrate to the farthest corners of the largest auditorium which was a necessity in the days before electric amplification. When the original Ranco factory closed in the 1960s it was a boost for Hohner and others and in particular the Morino and Atlantic models at that time."

I have a Ranco Supervox from the 1950s with these features and it is the loudest and brightest of my current accordions, or of the many others that have passed through my hands. I checked out the "glue" referred to above and it looks similar varnish or shellac.

 

[jozz]

Clip two has vehicle sound proofing material taped behind the grill (specialised stuff I'm using on a camper van I'm converting containing metal on one side and rubber on the other) and it dramatically mellows the sound without drastically cutting the volume, a far better effect than trusty felt or an old towel. If you want a mellower tone, this is an extremely cheap method!

can you show us a pic of how you taped it?

I'm having several acoustic concerts coming up in a small reflective room - might be interesting