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Date of Hohner manufacture move?

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wirralaccordion

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Does anyone know when Hohner started to manufacture piano accordions in China? I am sorry but I know it's on here somewhere but I can't find it. And were all their piano accordions manufactured in China from that date?
 
Hi Phil,

From what little I remember of it, I think that production was moved to China piecemeal over a period of time. Ownership of the Hohner brand is another matter, as it has been passed around for quite a long time.

Some still cling to the erroneous belief that Hohner is controlled from Germany, though this has not been the case for some considerable time.

I understand that the "Atlantic" model is Chinese made, though I don't know when production of this model began in China.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.
 
wirralaccordion post_id=64513 time=1543010078 user_id=2229 said:
Does anyone know when Hohner started to manufacture piano accordions in China? I am sorry but I know its on here somewhere but I cant find it. And were all their piano accordions manufactured in China from that date?

I do not know the dates either, but I can answer the last question.
Production of both piano and button accordions of the lower range models was moved to China. The machines used to make these accordions were moved to China, so the main change was using different employees to use the machines.
The higher end models (both PC and CBA) were already moved out of Germany (and into Italy) more than 50 years ago. The Morino series N and S were all made by Excelsior and as of around 2000 Excelsior was taken over by Pigini so the newer ones are made by Pigini. The only model that was always kept more of a secret is the Gola. Some work on the Gola is still done in Germany, but considering how similar the Gola and Morino were and are on the inside at least some subassemblies must have been made by Excelsior (now Pigini) for the past decades as well.
So the answer to the last question is a definite NO: not all the piano accordions are manufactured in China.
 
Thanks for your replies.

I was considering purchasing this accordion

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOHNER-CONCERTO-II-PIANO-ACCORDION/223229489083

and wondered if just because it is marked manufactured in Germany on the accordion and the case that this could be relied on completely?

If it wasnt it would be worth considerably less and it is probably already overpriced as there are no current bids on it.
 
wirralaccordion post_id=64529 time=1543059863 user_id=2229 said:
Thanks for your replies.

I was considering purchasing this accordion

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOHNER-CONCERTO-II-PIANO-ACCORDION/223229489083

and wondered if just because it is marked manufactured in Germany on the accordion and the case that this could be relied on completely?

If it wasnt it would be worth considerably less and it is probably already overpriced as there are no current bids on it.

That one could potentially be old enough to still be made in Germany, but as no age was posted (unless I missed it) you never know,
The label made in Germany does not mean anything. All the Morino N and S accordions have made in Germany stamped into them, yet they were manufactured by Excelsior in Italy. Maybe the stamp was put on in Germany and that was the only thing done in Germany. Maybe they still did a bit more, but Excelsior definitely did the production and in fact also had virtually identical models sold under the Excelsior label (but not giving the same sound!).
 
Paul said

That one could potentially be old enough to still be made in Germany, but as no age was posted (unless I missed it) you never know,

One photo shows the model to be a Concerto ll N. According to the list on this forum these Concerto ll N accordions were manufactured from 1981 to 1984 and so the question is whether or not Hohner were manufacturing accordions in Germany or China during 1981 - 1984. Would the type/quality of reeds be indicative?
 
wirralaccordion post_id=64532 time=1543066160 user_id=2229 said:
Paul said

That one could potentially be old enough to still be made in Germany, but as no age was posted (unless I missed it) you never know,

One photo shows the model to be a Concerto ll N. According to the list on this forum these Concerto ll N accordions were manufactured from 1981 to 1984 and so the question is whether or not Hohner were manufacturing accordions in Germany or China during 1981 - 1984. Would the type/quality of reeds be indicative?

China definitely started later than that, so this one is likely made in Germany.
 
Hi Phil,

Though not limited to the accordion industry, misleading information is nevertheless prevalent in this industry. It is little wonder that people don't know who to trust, as it is often the case that purchasers have been totally hoodwinked by grossly misleading claims by manufacturers.

I cannot speak for anyone else, of course, but I would not buy from any manufacturer who would stoop so low as to mislead customers over where their product was made.

Unless someone tells me differently, the only European manufacturers (apart from specialist ones) who still make their instruments in Europe are Weltmeister and Delicia. I stand to be corrected, but that is what I understand the situation to be.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.
 
Stephen Hawkins post_id=64569 time=1543185123 user_id=1440 said:
...
Unless someone tells me differently, the only European manufacturers (apart from specialist ones) who still make their instruments in Europe are Weltmeister and Delicia. I stand to be corrected, but that is what I understand the situation to be.
...

Not sure what you mean by European manufacturers then. Italy is still part of Europe and has many manufacturers producing in Italy. Think of Bugari, Pigini, Beltuna, Victoria and many more smaller ones. There are also some factories and workshops in France for instance. Still, unless you know the factory its hard to know what is being made where...
 
Hi Paul,

Country of manufacture is often misrepresented. This creates distrust and plain confusion.

I don't know which Italian makers are on the level, or which have accordions or their constituent parts made in China. This confusion causes doubt in my mind, especially as I have seen shipping manifests for accordion parts being routed through ports in South Korea & Vietnam.

Italy is definitely in Europe, but how much or how many of their accordions are actually made there? Italian accordions are quite expensive to buy but, if a considerable proportion of their parts are made elsewhere, they should be less expensive.

I accept that Chinese made instruments may not be as good as European made ones, but I am convinced that they are getting much closer to producing good quality instruments by the day. I am also convinced that they have the drive and talent to succeed in markets where Europe has failed.

It could be said that European manufacturers rely on nostalgia for their sales, as there is certainly a crisis of confidence with Italian manufacturers. We know of people on this forum who have lost a lot of money through the collapse of Italian manufacturers, and I wonder how many of us would feel confident enough to order and pay for goods up front.

I have no plans to buy a new accordion at the moment, as my needs are fairly well covered by the three I already own. If, however, I was in the market for a new instrument, I would definitely consider a Chinese one.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.
 
Stephen Hawkins post_id=64600 time=1543273636 user_id=1440 said:
Hi Paul,

Country of manufacture is often misrepresented. This creates distrust and plain confusion.

I dont know which Italian makers are on the level, or which have accordions or their constituent parts made in China. This confusion causes doubt in my mind, especially as I have seen shipping manifests for accordion parts being routed through ports in South Korea & Vietnam.
...

Accordion manufacturers only make a few (but important) bits of the accordion themselves, like the box (treble and bass side) and the reed blocks. They source almost all other parts, and then fit them into the box. This is still a very laborious process as parts are often not ready to go in. For instance keys need the (aluminium) connection from keyboard towards pallet bent exactly the right way to fit. This is different for every key on the keyboard. Then the key top (made of celluloid) needs to be glued on in exactly the right position and needs to fit without touching neighboring keys and without leaving an ugly gap. Bass pistons also need to be bent exactly the right way and the tabs (that push the levers) need to be positioned correctly. Some manufacturers also still cut leathers themselves, and the felt for the pallets. It is a lot of manual precision work.

Many parts are sourced from a different company in Italy (like the bellows, the reed plates, the valves...) but many parts actually come from far away, a lot from china, like buttons, screws, bolts, bellow pins, bellow straps and not least of all sheets of celluloid. So its no wonder there are shipping manifests for accordion parts.

Especially in the lower range it is not a surprise to see accordions being made/assembled in countries like China because labor is a major part of the cost of an accordion. If you consider how much work it is to build say a 34/72 3 reed instrument and how much material goes into it versus a 41/120 4 reed instrument with cassotto and a mano reeds and you consider how much money these instruments are sold for it is clear that no money can be made on the 34/72 when built to the same standard in Italy but quite a bit can be made on the 41/120. The expensive models pay for keeping the lower end (beginner) models affordable. It is all about buyer lock-in. Once a buyer is happy starting out on a small accordion of brand X they are more likely to later go for an expensive model also from brand X.

Some Italian names are now being used for chinese import: E.Soprani is a good example. These accordions are made in China and then go to Italy for a final quality check before being shipped to dealers or customers. I have no idea how much work that final check still takes, but the final check on some real Italian accordions is also still a lot of work, more so in the larger factories than in smaller outfits.

Will we soon see more accordions made in China and sold under famous Italian brands? Who knows... but my prediction is that it is likely to happen, especially when companies start needing to do it in order to stay afloat.
 
wirralaccordion post_id=64529 time=1543059863 user_id=2229 said:
Thanks for your replies.

I was considering purchasing this accordion

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HOHNER-CONCERTO-II-PIANO-ACCORDION/223229489083

and wondered if just because it is marked manufactured in Germany on the accordion and the case that this could be relied on completely?

If it wasnt it would be worth considerably less and it is probably already overpriced as there are no current bids on it.

I still own the III N, its LMM brother. If its in tune and no defects in its action, id say that 450 is about right. It should go nowhere near that 750 instant buy price, unless you have proof that its fully serviced. Regardless if it was made in Germany or not...(these models typically are)
 
If its in tune and no defects in its action, id say that 450 is about right. It should go nowhere near that 750 instant buy price, unless you have proof that its fully serviced. Regardless if it was made in Germany or not...(these models typically are)

Ive since found out that its never been tuned since purchased new and therefore by implication I would think that its never been serviced either so Ill give this one a miss.
 
Hi Paul,

I bow to your superior knowledge, but still have nagging doubts about the soundness of Italian manufacturers. The realist in me recognises a trend, and that trend points firmly in the direction of China.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.
 
Hi Stephen,

I recommend buying a lifetime supply now, before it is too late. That seems to be my plan!
 
I think this could be a matter of experience. Once upon a time, things made in Japan were substandard and, quite frankly, junk. Now Japan makes some very high quality products equal to or exceeding products made elsewhere. The same will happen with China
 
Hi Tom,

I am the wrong age for making long term investments, so won't be stocking up on Italian accordions. Anyway, I really couldn't be sure whether or not they were actually made in Italy.

And that is the fly in the ointment; firms which lead customers to believe that which is later found to be untrue. At least if you buy a Chinese machine, you know that it is made where they say it is made.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.
 
Hi Tony,

The Chinese have built a highly sophisticated railway, with trains that exceed 217 mph. Pearl River (who make a range of accordions) are the biggest musical instrument manufacturer in the world, and they make three models of the Steinway & Son piano. They also make pianos for Yamaha.

I guess they must be doing something right, though few people seem prepared to give them any credit for the massive advances they have made.

It is true, and I accept the fact, that some Chinese made accordions have been of dubious quality, but I also know that some are very, very good instruments. It is also true that Chinese instruments are less than half the price of their European equivalents, and are more than adequate for the styles of music and venues which are of interest to me.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.
 
Hi Stephen,

My methodology is to contact the builder personally, through email, or a known representative that I trust. It helps that I speak Italian and have friends there. I have been told which models are made in house, and which are assembled from parts from elsewhere. The honest builders are not afraid to share this information; they know they need models at many price points. I believe it is still possible to trust the makers that are small enough to have personal service. Many regularly post pictures on their facebook pages of work in progress. Yes, I'm sure there is some deception, as in all businesses, but there is still pride in the Italian artiginale accordion production market. How long will this last? Who knows, I suspect there will always be the artistic creators, just like we have painters, potters, chefs, and, dare I say it, live musicians when these trades definitely make no sense and the products can be found way cheaper in China. Well, I guess you can call me an optimist! Thanks, Tom
 
Stephen Hawkins post_id=64660 time=1543446966 user_id=1440 said:
It is also true that Chinese instruments are less than half the price of their European equivalents, and are more than adequate for the styles of music and venues which are of interest to me.

Stephen makes a very good point here, well two actually. 1. Price is always relevant and 2. Adequate for the job.

The beginning, or even intermediate, accordionist needs to have instruments at a price they can afford and/or recoup if thing dont work out. Most Chinese accordions fall within that price range. Nice used Italian or German accordions are available at the price of new Chinese ones, but I think there is some resistance for younger beginning players to buy 20, 40, 50 year old units. There is quite a pause when they price Italian machines that run into many thousands of dollars. I think its interesting to note that the smaller late model Weltmeisters (like Rubin, Pearl, Juwel) seldom come on the market and when they do, dont stay long.

Then there is relevance. Few of us are professional accordionists and therefore dont need very high end instruments. I could afford a $15,000 accordion but why? I could afford a Mercedes but my VW works fine, for me. OK, so that $15,000 accordion is going to sound much better that my 1960s era one but, in my home, playing for myself or in a park gathering a few people, I am happy with what I have
 
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