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Crunching the Numbers on CBA

That would be really nice @losthobos!

Yet there is something quite special about C system on RH & LH. It's even evident when you just perform the simplest C major scale on the right hand... and the left hand is almost magnetically compelled to mirror the motion on the bass buttons. It is perhaps the most elegant of accordion designs IMHO...
 
Walker said:
And the left hand is almost magnetically compelled to mirror the motion on the bass buttons. It is perhaps the most elegant of accordion designs IMHO...
Click to expand...
sounds wonderful...except I wouldn't want the left hand to be playing the same notes as the right hand.....and the apple cart would then topple....
I'd be interested to try though for sure...
 
@petch yep, best of both worlds...with limitations
I'd be very interested to try this mirror C system combination.. especially if same size buttons each side...
 
losthobos said:
@petch yep, best of both worlds...with limitations
I'd be very interested to try this mirror C system combination.. especially if same size buttons each side...
Click to expand...
I'd also like to try such a box. Before going to Italy I contacted Fisitalia to see if I could try their Bayan Ergo model that has such a design - sadly they said they wouldn't have another until September/October

1689706191995.png

There are also Harmoneons but not sure if anyone makes those still
 
I've seen these beautiful lhs buttons before...Almost shouting "Look, I've got a free bass instrument!". I like that.

Is it just the button design that's different, or do they also have different spacing?
 
Disclaimer: More squeezebox porno contained in the post below:

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I think it's already a bit derailed (can something be "a bit" derailed"? :unsure: ) and since we are talking about all the wonderful free bass systems, it would be unfair not to mention the bandoneon.
In particular, the Kusserow-system bandoneon.

Not only is it unisonoric, but if you look at the left hand side closely, you'll see that it is....drumroll... A reverse 6-row Moschino!
Same idea of chromatic pattern over 4 rows + doubling rows. Developed specifically for the left hand's limitations (no thumb, limited mobility due to bellows control).
Interesting :unsure:.

The left hand side logic is explained in the video below. The right hand side layout is different in the video from the pic below - I suspect there's an error in the picture.

If I could go back in time, and if these boxes were widely available, I might have chosen this over a CBA.:cry:


Kusserow.jpg

 
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tcabot said:
Well, you got me thinking about Kravtsov's keyboard, which sits somewhere between the PA and the CBA, but was developed to allow PA players make an easy shift to it (in only about 2 weeks according to Kravtsov, as all PA fingerings can be played on the Kravtsov out of the box). The LHS free bass converter is a mirror of the RHS.

Unfortunately, won't be easily available to purchase at the moment, given the war.
...
Click to expand...
I currently strongly advice against the move to Kravtsov. The Kravtsov keyboard is really interesting, and purchasing an accordion with Kravtsov is not too difficult either: Zonta from Belarus is currently the only manufacturer who makes accordions with Kravtsov keyboard.
But... having just "finished" tuning (and voicing) a nearly new Zonta with Kravtsov keyboard I can only say that this is the worst bayan-like accordion I have every seen and worked on. The first difficulty was to get the keyboard to work right. This Zonta initially came with the fourth row of buttons shifted by one key. They fixed that in the factory. But the keyboard was still bad: some keys clashed with adjacent keys, producing a clacking sound. Others were rattling because internally the coupling between row 1 and 4 was on the wrong side, not having a spring that eliminates the rattling. One key did not release easily and quickly... Then the voicing was pretty bad and the accordion was seriously out of tune. (Most notes were sounding too low in the lower half of the keyboard.) The tuning was extremely hard to make stable in the lowest notes (and yes I do know how to make sure the reed blocks cannot move at all, which would influence the tuning. The holes in the reed blocks are too small for the low notes, causing them to drop in frequency a lot as sound volumes increases... The only reason why anyone might want to buy such a bad instrument is that it is the only option to get a Kravtsov keyboard.

In a distant past Victoria also made accordions with the Kravtsov keyboard, but they do not currently offer this option. I can understand that because the market for Kravtsov accordions is close to non-existent, and as it's normally only played in Russia, by students of prof. Kravtsov... currently the market will be truly non-existent...

Connecting back to the original question about the "numbers" on CBA... A full bayan-size Kravtsov accordion (weighing in at 16kg) only has room for 52 treble notes: C3 up to Eb7 in the M register (or C2 up to Eb6 in the L register). With a CBA you can get 52 notes in a significantly smaller and lighter package than this.
 
Thanks for sharing the Kravtsov instrument tcabot and the bandoneon too (it's awesome). I actually like Kravtsov too, but for me it's neither 'fish nor fowl', because it has only some of the benefits of CBA (ergonomic, but not as ergonomic as button key) and only some of the benefits of PA (long established keyboard fingering, but not nearly as tactile as the classic piano keyboard).

As for me... I like my 'surf & turf', in the modern Italian concert accordion style...

C griff with converter (64/120/58) played by MICHELE BIANCO



PA with Quint converter (47/160/48) played by LUIGI LUCA


I think the new generation of Italian players like Michele Bianco on button accordion & Luigi Luca on piano accordion, are really excellent.
 
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losthobos said:
@Walker
How come you've not considered the French 3x3 system....get a map and check out....best of both worlds...3rows of freebase and 3 rows chords...
And you'll get the pimpest of mother of pearl deco ...😉
Click to expand...
A French 3x3 system has 3 rows of base notes, together giving you just one octave of notes. That's not what I would call "freebase".
 
Walker said:
Thanks for sharing the Kravtsov instrument tcabot and the bandoneon too (it's awesome). I actually like Kravtsov too, but for me it's neither 'fish nor fowl', because it has only some of the benefits of CBA (ergonomic, but not as ergonomic as button key) and only some of the benefits of PA (long established keyboard fingering, but not nearly as tactile as the classic piano keyboard).

As for me... I like my 'surf & turf', in the modern Italian concert accordion style...

C griff with converter (64/120/58) played by MICHELE BIANCO



PA with Quint converter (47/160/48) played by LUIGI LUCA


I think the new generation of Italian players like Michele Bianco on button accordion & Luigi Luca on piano accordion, are really excellent.
Click to expand...


To my ears, JS Bach always sounds so much better with the bass profundity of instruments like the Bayan which Hrustevich plays on.
 
Ffingers said:
To my ears, JS Bach always sounds so much better with the bass profundity of instruments like the Bayan which Hrustevich plays on.
Click to expand...
In my experience "bass profundity" in recordings (or performances with amplification) are more a matter of how the recording is made than a property of the instrument itself. I really like the strong bass in the videos made by Sergey Teleshev, but there is no way that is what it sounds when you listen to it, non-amplified, from a distance.
I make a lot of recordings (of my own ensemble arrangements) and one of the most difficult aspects of the "mixing" is to get the bass to sound powerful yet not overpowering.
Here is an example of a recording I made with two accordions. The melody is played on a Bugari. The accompaniment is done on the AKKO bayan. This is "straight" recording, so no tricks to make the bass more powerful or to give it more "bass profundity". When you hear recordings with a much more powerful bass sound than this you know it was done with technology and is not how the bayan sounds "naturally".
You can even get a nice "full" bass sound from a "normal" CBA with just 46 notes (87 treble buttons) and melody bass. (We have an older model Bugari 508/ARS/C which is just that: 46 treble notes (2+2 LMMH) and 55 melody bass notes (LM) and quality-wise this is still the best accordion we have.)
 
Ffingers said:
To my ears, JS Bach always sounds so much better with the bass profundity of instruments like the Bayan which Hrustevich plays on.
Click to expand...
That's a perfectly good preference to have too. Hrustevich is also a giant of a musician. I think a lot of people prefer the assertive character of the bayan. Its bass voicing is a little different with LL voice. I think Paul could explain it well.

I personally like a slightly lighter sound that blends the LH and RH. I like the smaller instruments too, but then I am no virtuoso...

This specification, I like very much:

debra said:
You can even get a nice "full" bass sound from a "normal" CBA with just 46 notes (87 treble buttons) and melody bass. (We have an older model Bugari 508/ARS/C which is just that: 46 treble notes (2+2 LMMH) and 55 melody bass notes (LM) and quality-wise this is still the best accordion we have.)
Click to expand...
However, I think @tcabot has got a good point about having a moderate range of notes. I think ideally 87 buttons (46 to 52 notes), thereby dropping the lowest RH octave (a maximum of 52 notes instead of 52+12= 64 notes). Likewise on the LH, I think 58 notes can be reduced a bit (from the highest octave) as much of the range is way into the rafters. 49 notes E1 to E5 would be enough for lots of flexibility. In total (both hands) an 87 button accordion can give a range from the double bass lowest note (E1) to above the top of a piano (C#8 using the 4' voice). Not a bad range, and in a much smaller sized instrument than a bass or piano...
 
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Walker said:
...
However, I think @tcabot has got a good point about having a moderate range of notes. I think ideally 87 buttons (46 to 52 notes), thereby dropping the lowest RH octave (a maximum of 52 notes instead of 52+12= 64 notes). Likewise on the LH, I think 58 notes can be reduced a bit (from the highest octave) as much of the range is way into the rafters. 49 notes E1 to E5 would be enough for lots of flexibility. In total (both hands) an 87 button accordion can give a range from the double bass lowest note (E1) to above the top of a piano (C#8 using the 4' voice). Not a bad range, and in a much smaller sized instrument than a bass or piano...
Click to expand...
My Bugari 540/ARS/C has 52 RH notes and 49 LH notes, and that's typically enough, although the RH starts at C# and I would have liked it to have 53 notes and start at C (and still go up to E). My Bugari 508/ARS/C has 46 RH notes and 55 LH notes. It has a 2+2 reed block configuration which gives better (equal) sound than the 3+3 reed block configuration of the (smaller) 540/ARS/C. Both have their pros and cons...
 
debra said:
My Bugari 540/ARS/C has 52 RH notes and 49 LH notes, and that's typically enough, although the RH starts at C# and I would have liked it to have 53 notes and start at C (and still go up to E).
Click to expand...
That's interesting...

I thought the treble range went:

46 note accordions - E to C#
52 note accordions - E to G

Is C# to E more standard than E to G on a 52 note instrument?
 
I think there's no rhyme or reason. My 47 note Accordiola starts with a D, goes up to C.
 
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