CJS bass system (Chiovarelli Jazz System)

[losthobos]

"I have an accordion in my hand, what do I want to play?"

I have a tune in my head...how best can I interpret it within the limitations and capabilities of the actual instrument I'm holding..

 

[Lucio76]

I can't hear that myself, but it's not me playing.

You know, it's actually more about seeing than hearing in this case. If you take a look at the video, you'll notice that he only plays single notes with the left hand in some parts. So, it's not exactly a real-time performance. It's actually a multitrack recording.

 

[saundersbp]

It's actually a multitrack recording.

Not sure it is. When he's playing single notes in LH he's playing chords in RH but you'll see at some points the LH is doing more

 

[Lucio76]

Ops... sorry, you're right, my mistake, I didn't see that he was playing chords with the right hand.

 

[Walker]

I have no problem with the free bass accordion but I can't agree with your statement...free bass accordions is not a feature that makes an accordion more versatile, it's the opposite. If you have only free bass you can't play a lot of stuff or you can play it as it was a concertina...single notes:

Hi Lucio.

Stradella bass is indeed a versatile mechanical marvel. I also believe CJS is equally an interesting mechanism for creating altered and extended chords on the left hand.

However, the beauty of free bass is that chords can be constructed using the exact pitch and inversion that the musician desires (even single chords spread over multiple octaves). The same cannot be said of stradella or CJS.

It is not about versatility but rather musicality. 1 note for 1 button is about being in control of your music. No serious pianist or orchestral musician would allow a 'machine' to fix chords and play extra notes for you. This is precisely the reason why the accordion has not been taken seriously as a true musical instrument until recently.

Stradella bass has earned the right to exist on the accordion, but free bass is what elevated the instrument to the next level! With CJS you can press three buttons and get a 6 note chord - even when you only have 5 fingers (per hand)! Incredible and clever, but a mechanical novelty that many musicians would consider contrived.

 

[stickista]

Don't be surprised! I play tons of homophonic music on freebass accordion.
Here is an example of someone playing a Waltz where the freebass provides the rhythm section. You could play it on stradella but you'd have to compromise the accuracy of the chords and voices and relative pitch of the basses too. I think that's the point of this thread.

I think that for most listeners, the difference between Stradella and free bass on homophonic music (melody set against block-ish, vertical harmony as opposed to counterpoint) is probably too subtle to really detect. But to my ear, there’s a world of difference between the inevitable oom-pah sound often (not always) heard from Stradella and the sound of proper voice leading you can get with free bass.
And I think that’s at least partly responsible for accordion resurgence in ‘serious’ music.

 

[stickista]

This discussion is way above my head so please excuse me if I'm talking rubbish.
My understanding of this is the question of playing the rhythm (chords and bass) on the left hand of a freebass accordion.
Watching this youtube link, I could only see the accordionist playing the bass notes on the left hand and the chords and melody with the right hand, so, in this case I would agree with Lucio. It could be the same played on a stadella instrument using the right hand for melody and chords and the left hand for the bass notes not using the chord buttons.

Its an issue of proper voice leading, where each of the accompanying voices form their own melodies instead of making big jumps because of having to use the same inversion for every chord. You can hear it more clearly with newbie piano players who jump all over the keyboard using the same chord shape.
And I do think most people can hear it, even if they can’t describe it.

 

[stickista]

I have no problem with the free bass accordion but I can't agree with your statement...free bass accordions is not a feature that makes an accordion more versatile, it's the opposite. If you have only free bass you can't play a lot of stuff or you can play it as it was a concertina...single notes:

As respectable as that clip is, I don’t think its a fair representation of the sophistication possible on free bass.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

So I’ll ask here what I asked on you ‘contact us’ form… Have you been able to engage Roland about getting this added to the Roland FR series midi accordions as an optional LH configuration?

Roland doesn’t seem the least bit interested in anything accordion now. I wish it were otherwise.

 

[stickista]

Roland doesn’t seem the least bit interested in anything accordion now. I wish it were otherwise.

I actually got a response from Roland about LH customization, and it was, unsurprisingly, a pretty firm ‘nope’.

 

[Tom]

Hi Lucio.

Stradella bass is indeed a versatile mechanical marvel. I also believe CJS is equally an interesting mechanism for creating altered and extended chords on the left hand.

However, the beauty of free bass is that chords can be constructed using the exact pitch and inversion that the musician desires (even single chords spread over multiple octaves). The same cannot be said of stradella or CJS.

It is not about versatility but rather musicality. 1 note for 1 button is about being in control of your music. No serious pianist or orchestral musician would allow a 'machine' to fix chords and play extra notes for you. This is precisely the reason why the accordion has not been taken seriously as a true musical instrument until recently.

Stradella bass has earned the right to exist on the accordion, but free bass is what elevated the instrument to the next level! With CJS you can press three buttons and get a 6 note chord - even when you only have 5 fingers (per hand)! Incredible and clever, but a mechanical novelty that many musicians would consider contrived.

"This is precisely why the accordion has not been taken seriously as a true musical instrument until recently."

I assume you mean....."by western european (middle class) classical snobs?" Just saying... Don't tell the polka, zydeco, or forró musicians, they think it's kind of a serious instrument.

 

[Lucio76]

"many musicians would consider contrived"??
No, not really. The best accordionists we have in Italy are enthusiast of the CJS so I think you are just projecting your personal opinion.

"Serious music"??
What's is serious music??

I don't know what you guys are talking about, there's just some classical music played on free bass.

Can you show me something that prove your claims? So far I've seen just single notes accompaniment, chords played with the right hand or just chords with no bass pattern.

This is the stuff people play in conservatories on free bass accordions:



Is this the serious music accordionists should be happy to play?
This is the noble music opposed to the bucolic oom pah pah so hated by many?
The accordion now is more respected because plays this stuff?

I know it's just my personal and ignorant opinion but, I can't care less about this "thing", it's not even music for me. Call me ignorant, no problem but I'm pretty sure that this doesn't represent any "next level" for the accordion.

 

[stickista]

Now to be fair, something like this is actually harder on free bass.
(The walking + chords on the head, not the walking alone on the solo.)
In the end, it always comes down to the archer, not the arrow.

 

[stickista]

"This is precisely why the accordion has not been taken seriously as a true musical instrument until recently."

I assume you mean....."by western european (middle class) classical snobs?" Just saying... Don't tell the polka, zydeco, or forró musicians, they think it's kind of a serious instrument.

That’s why when I refer to ‘serious’ music, I always make sure I put it in scare quotes.

 

[saundersbp]

"This is precisely why the accordion has not been taken seriously as a true musical instrument until recently."

I assume you mean....."by western european (middle class) classical snobs

I hope we aren't getting into class warfare, cultural marxism or inverted snobbery here
I've encountered plenty of Jazz musicians with silver spoons and one of the most tense snobbish musical events I've taken part in fell under the trad folk banner. Perhaps things are 50 years behind in the USA, but really these ancient stereotypes about classical musicians just don't hold water in 2023 in the UK, really quite the opposite is true in Yorkshire. Come for a holiday!

"many musicians would consider contrived"??
No, not really. The best accordionists we have in Italy are enthusiast of the CJS so I think you are just projecting your personal opinion.

I think this might be a linguistic misunderstanding or something lost in translation. The point is that many musicians (i.e. people playing other instruments) would see a single button producing a mechanically fixed combination of notes as contrived or limited and until recently the accordion has struggled. But things are changing and we have every reason to be positive! I'm not unfamiliar with some world class Italian accordionists but have never heard them speak or use the CJS system. I'm sure some do however and make lovely sounds.
Keep happy and keep away from music by Berinsky!

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

The pitch range of the Stradella reeds is limited, which means that some intervals are not exactly what accordionists are used to calling. This is because some intervals have a lower pitch than the root note, resulting in chords that are inversions. For example, what is commonly called a C6 chord on the Contralto reeds set (F#-F) is actually a second inversion because the lower note is a G. The same applies to diminished chords, where a C diminished chord is not made up of the notes C, Eb, and A, but instead of A, C, and Eb. This makes it more similar to a real diminished triad of A rather than a C diminished 7th. Although these are equivalent chords, the intervals are significant when it comes to harmony.

When making a CMaj7 chord by combining C and Em, you get a cluster of two semitones (B, C) because you are actually playing G, B, C, and E with the Contralto reeds. And if we change key? The Soprano and Alto reeds play from C to B, while the Contralto reeds play from F# to F. It can be quite a nightmare to map all the "real" intervals, chord inversions, octaves, and results of summing the three voices of Stradella harmony.

Right, and this is made more complicated by the fact that there is no standardization. On my Hohner Morino and Atlantic, for example, the lowest note of all 4 sets of bass reeds is E, whereas with most Italian accordions it is C or A on the 2 lowest sets, with a low F# or two in the middle. It's a good idea for accordionists to know exactly where each set of reeds begins on their particular instrument. As for major 7 chords, I find playing the root in the bass combined with the III chord usually sounds quite nice.

 

[stickista]

Right, and this is made more complicated by the fact that there is no standardization. On my Hohner Morino and Atlantic, for example, the lowest note of all 4 sets of bass reeds is E, whereas with most Italian accordions it is C or A on the 2 lowest sets, with a low F# or two in the middle. It's a good idea for accordionists to know exactly where each set of reeds begins on their particular instrument. As for major 7 chords, I find playing the root in the bass combined with the III chord usually sounds quite nice.

Which brings us back to the original topic of the thread, which is CJS, and the currently ascendent Barry Harris school of thought (around which CJS is constructed) which says that the Maj7 is actually a pretty ugly, unstable chord, and that the maj6th is the real tonic. CJS is designed to allow easy maj and min 6th chords.

 

[stickista]

Hi Lucio.

Stradella bass is indeed a versatile mechanical marvel. I also believe CJS is equally an interesting mechanism for creating altered and extended chords on the left hand.

However, the beauty of free bass is that chords can be constructed using the exact pitch and inversion that the musician desires (even single chords spread over multiple octaves). The same cannot be said of stradella or CJS.

It is not about versatility but rather musicality. 1 note for 1 button is about being in control of your music. No serious pianist or orchestral musician would allow a 'machine' to fix chords and play extra notes for you. This is precisely the reason why the accordion has not been taken seriously as a true musical instrument until recently.

Stradella bass has earned the right to exist on the accordion, but free bass is what elevated the instrument to the next level! With CJS you can press three buttons and get a 6 note chord - even when you only have 5 fingers (per hand)! Incredible and clever, but a mechanical novelty that many musicians would consider contrived.

Pro tip… Always put “serious” in scare quotes.

 

[Tom]

I hope we aren't getting into class warfare, cultural marxism or inverted snobbery here
I've encountered plenty of Jazz musicians with silver spoons and one of the most tense snobbish musical events I've taken part in fell under the trad folk banner. Perhaps things are 50 years behind in the USA, but really these ancient stereotypes about classical musicians just don't hold water in 2023 in the UK, really quite the opposite is true in Yorkshire. Come for a holiday!


I think this might be a linguistic misunderstanding or something lost in translation. The point is that many musicians (i.e. people playing other instruments) would see a single button producing a mechanically fixed combination of notes as contrived or limited and until recently the accordion has struggled. But things are changing and we have every reason to be positive! I'm not unfamiliar with some world class Italian accordionists but have never heard them speak or use the CJS system. I'm sure some do however and make lovely sounds.
Keep happy and keep away from music by Berinsky!

Surely I jest, no war desired. I added the to make it more clear.

 

[Walker]

Pro tip… Always put “serious” in scare quotes.

Noted @stickista. You can train me up.

Surely I jest, no war desired. I added the to make it more clear.

Tom, you are an absolute gentleman. It is a pleasure to discuss the "serious" issue of "serious" music with you.

I hope we aren't getting into class warfare, cultural marxism or inverted snobbery here
I've encountered plenty of Jazz musicians with silver spoons and one of the most tense snobbish musical events I've taken part in fell under the trad folk banner. Perhaps things are 50 years behind in the USA, but really these ancient stereotypes about classical musicians just don't hold water in 2023 in the UK, really quite the opposite is true in Yorkshire. Come for a holiday!


I think this might be a linguistic misunderstanding or something lost in translation. The point is that many musicians (i.e. people playing other instruments) would see a single button producing a mechanically fixed combination of notes as contrived or limited and until recently the accordion has struggled. But things are changing and we have every reason to be positive! I'm not unfamiliar with some world class Italian accordionists but have never heard them speak or use the CJS system. I'm sure some do however and make lovely sounds.
Keep happy and keep away from music by Berinsky!

Well said Saundersbp old bean... Toodle pip!



Finally, @Lucio76 , it's great that you have passion for CJS! In a small way, I might even have been a small part in introducing the idea to you. Enjoy it in good health!