CJS bass system (Chiovarelli Jazz System)

[Tom]

Actually, I was just in contact with Roland about this, and their answer was “nope”.
“
No, it is not possible to customize the layout of the left hand buttons on a V-Accordion. There are a number of griffs or layouts to choose from. However, the Chiovarelli system is not one of them.

There is no way for customers to customize left hand layouts.

Thank you for contacting us.”

I meant usb out to a daw, not on the accordion itself. Above my pay grade, but there are those on here that know how to do midi.

 

[stickista]

The issue is that if you need all your fingers to play a single chord, even in a compact position, you won't be able to add any bass patterns. While this could be useful for playing chord pads or ethereal accompaniment without bass, it's hard to imagine how you could play a bossa nova or samba accompaniment with alternating bass, for example. Even a polka with alternating bass and 3 notes chords seems impossible to play on a free bass accordion with the same effect as on the standard bass.
Free bass accordions are great for polyphony but not as effective for playing rhythmic bass patterns. Am I wrong?

I will admit that my situation may not speak for all free bass players, since I play a mirrored CBA bandoneon, which has larger LH buttons and the ability to use my thumb on the 1st row.

But if people can play Bach on free bass, then anything can be played.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

3 note chords restrict what you can do on the left. (The ultimate freedom coming from even more simplification in the form of single note free bass.)
You can do some great things with polychords on traditional Stradella (eg C triad + G triad = Cmaj9, but some things like maj/min 6th chords aren’t possible. Thats a big restriction to the growing number of people studying Barry Harris (recently deceased) who’s method is based on 6th chords (+ diminished chords).
Most harmony, including sophisticated harmony, is (in our culture) constructed from min and maj thirds. By removing the 5ths (which btw, are largely a hindrance if you want b5 or aug chords) you’re left with a big construction kit of minor and major pairs from which you can build absolutely anything.
You get a less duplicative maj 7 chord with 2 vertically adjacent buttons in the major column. (Meaning less wasted air.)
You get a maj 6th chord with 2 vertically adjacent buttons on the minor column.
You get a min 6th chord using a maj and minor button 6 rows apart. (this seems the most clunky voicing, and I may very well be wrong… I’m just mentally constructing this.
A m7b5 chord is just an inverted m6th chord.
You also get a dom 7th row consisting only of scale step 3 and b7, the 2 most critical leading tones in tonal music.
Combine a dim button and dom 7th button 3 rows apart and you get a full diminished chord, all 4 notes (dim and 7th column are both tritones.)
I’m also guessing you can construct Barry Harris’s famous dim6th (bebop) scales and movements fairly easily.

I’ve never actually touched a CJS instrument, and probably never will, since I play CBA/freebass so I get all this stuff pretty much out of the box (as I’ve ranted on about endlessly in other posts. )

But yeah, less really does get you a lot more by simply dropping the 5ths, and saves you a ton of air in the bargain.

- Jerry

Don't get me wrong. I think it's an interesting idea, and I am even tempted to try it on one of my less valuable accordions. It would certainly allow for a greater range of chords, and augmented chords in particular, the lack of which is one of the biggest deficiencies of stradella. However, all of the chords you mentioned are already achievable on stradella. Cmaj7 is just C major plus E minor, or Em with C bass. C6 is C plus Am, which is also Am7, depending on the bass note. Cm6 is Cm plus Cdim, since nearly all accordions lack the b5 in diminished chords. Half-diminished or m7b5 is, as you said, an inversion of m6, so can be a minor plus diminished or, as I prefer, a minor with the root in the counter bass, so Ebm plus C bass for Cm7b5. Dominant 7th already lacks the 5th in nearly all accordions, though it does contain the root, so you've got me there. Full dim7 chords are achieved by playing two diminished buttons 3 rows apart or by playing the missing note in the bass, so Gb/F#dim plus counter bass C for a Cdim7, and so on. I'm confused as to what you mean by "less duplicative" and "less wasted air". If I, for example, add an Em chord to a C, I am adding exactly 1 note - B, which is 1-3 extra reeds, depending on the register I am in. There is no duplication of notes possible. I don't see how an accordion that has been altered to omit certain notes would use any less air playing a Cmaj7, if that Cmaj7 contains the same 4 notes. Can you clarify what you mean? Also, if this system is really just as simple as removing the 5ths from major and minor chords and the roots from 7th and diminished, why wouldn't they just say that on the website? It seems an unnecessary mystification of a simple and straightforward idea. This is why I am wondering if there is something else special about this accordion that I am not aware of.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

I will admit that my situation may not speak for all free bass players, since I play a mirrored CBA bandoneon, which has larger LH buttons and the ability to use my thumb on the 1st row.

But if people can play Bach on free bass, then anything can be played.

Cool box. One of my clients has one of these, and named it a "bayandeon", as it seems to be the offspring of a bayan and bandoneon.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

Hello, there are many factors to consider, the pliers are not enough and in any case this system is protected by a patent.

I would love to know more.

 

[stickista]

Don't get me wrong. I think it's an interesting idea, and I am even tempted to try it on one of my less valuable accordions. It would certainly allow for a greater range of chords, and augmented chords in particular, the lack of which is one of the biggest deficiencies of stradella. However, all of the chords you mentioned are already achievable on stradella. Cmaj7 is just C major plus E minor, or Em with C bass. C6 is C plus Am, which is also Am7, depending on the bass note. Cm6 is Cm plus Cdim, since nearly all accordions lack the b5 in diminished chords. Half-diminished or m7b5 is, as you said, an inversion of m6, so can be a minor plus diminished or, as I prefer, a minor with the root in the counter bass, so Ebm plus C bass for Cm7b5. Dominant 7th already lacks the 5th in nearly all accordions, though it does contain the root, so you've got me there. Full dim7 chords are achieved by playing two diminished buttons 3 rows apart or by playing the missing note in the bass, so Gb/F#dim plus counter bass C for a Cdim7, and so on. I'm confused as to what you mean by "less duplicative" and "less wasted air". If I, for example, add an Em chord to a C, I am adding exactly 1 note - B, which is 1-3 extra reeds, depending on the register I am in. There is no duplication of notes possible. I don't see how an accordion that has been altered to omit certain notes would use any less air playing a Cmaj7, if that Cmaj7 contains the same 4 notes. Can you clarify what you mean? Also, if this system is really just as simple as removing the 5ths from major and minor chords and the roots from 7th and diminished, why wouldn't they just say that on the website? It seems an unnecessary mystification of a simple and straightforward idea. This is why I am wondering if there is something else special about this accordion that I am not aware of.

You’re right. I was thinking that if 2 buttons share a common note, that means that 2 separate valves are being opened. Of course both buttons are linking to the same reed.

 

[stickista]

I meant usb out to a daw, not on the accordion itself. Above my pay grade, but there are those on here that know how to do midi.

ooh… interesting idea. Although I’d probably map a little more directly and less using polychords.

 

[CJS Chiovarelli Jazz Syst]

Don't get me wrong. I think it's an interesting idea, and I am even tempted to try it on one of my less valuable accordions. It would certainly allow for a greater range of chords, and augmented chords in particular, the lack of which is one of the biggest deficiencies of stradella. However, all of the chords you mentioned are already achievable on stradella. Cmaj7 is just C major plus E minor, or Em with C bass. C6 is C plus Am, which is also Am7, depending on the bass note. Cm6 is Cm plus Cdim, since nearly all accordions lack the b5 in diminished chords. Half-diminished or m7b5 is, as you said, an inversion of m6, so can be a minor plus diminished or, as I prefer, a minor with the root in the counter bass, so Ebm plus C bass for Cm7b5. Dominant 7th already lacks the 5th in nearly all accordions, though it does contain the root, so you've got me there. Full dim7 chords are achieved by playing two diminished buttons 3 rows apart or by playing the missing note in the bass, so Gb/F#dim plus counter bass C for a Cdim7, and so on. I'm confused as to what you mean by "less duplicative" and "less wasted air". If I, for example, add an Em chord to a C, I am adding exactly 1 note - B, which is 1-3 extra reeds, depending on the register I am in. There is no duplication of notes possible. I don't see how an accordion that has been altered to omit certain notes would use any less air playing a Cmaj7, if that Cmaj7 contains the same 4 notes. Can you clarify what you mean? Also, if this system is really just as simple as removing the 5ths from major and minor chords and the roots from 7th and diminished, why wouldn't they just say that on the website? It seems an unnecessary mystification of a simple and straightforward idea. This is why I am wondering if there is something else special about this accordion that I am not aware of.

Hello, as already explained above, it is not just a matter of deleting a note but of organizing the harmonies in a certain way. The discourse is purely musical and cannot be explained in these few simple concepts that you have indicated. First of all, harmony must be known and it is a perfect science. Also remember that the organization of notes is protected by patent in any way it is done both mechanically and electronically. The system allows you to connect chords with correct voicings for two, three, four voices, etc. lower, which with the Stradella as far as they say it is not possible to play clean chords with the correct parts as they play too many notes in the range of a major seventh ... the other rows of harmonies do nothing but replicate what it happens in a row of rumors. I believe that to understand the CJS you need to know the Stradella system very well and also have clear ideas about the matter of harmony.

 

[Lucio76]

I think you’d be surprised at how funky you can get with your left hand with free bass. The limitations are more related to the accordion’s intrinsic limitations such as its inability to emphasize individual voices.

I would be more than surprised if I were to find any good rhythmic accompaniment made by a free bass accordion player. So far, all I've seen is free bass accordion being played for classical music, unfortunately, most of the time it's modern classical music, which I cannot stand.

I have searched on YouTube, but to my disappointment, I have not been able to find any good examples. I found a few Latin pieces, but there was only a single note line for the bass and no chords...very poor accompaniment. Other pieces are accompanied by just chords, so I am still skeptical about the free bass accordion's ability to play something other than polyphonic classical music. However I'm opened to change my opinion, can you share a video where I can see what you mean?

 

[Lucio76]

Don't get me wrong. I think it's an interesting idea, and I am even tempted to try it on one of my less valuable accordions. It would certainly allow for a greater range of chords, and augmented chords in particular, the lack of which is one of the biggest deficiencies of stradella. However, all of the chords you mentioned are already achievable on stradella. Cmaj7 is just C major plus E minor, or Em with C bass. C6 is C plus Am, which is also Am7, depending on the bass note. Cm6 is Cm plus Cdim, since nearly all accordions lack the b5 in diminished chords. Half-diminished or m7b5 is, as you said, an inversion of m6, so can be a minor plus diminished or, as I prefer, a minor with the root in the counter bass, so Ebm plus C bass for Cm7b5. Dominant 7th already lacks the 5th in nearly all accordions, though it does contain the root, so you've got me there. Full dim7 chords are achieved by playing two diminished buttons 3 rows apart or by playing the missing note in the bass, so Gb/F#dim plus counter bass C for a Cdim7, and so on. I'm confused as to what you mean by "less duplicative" and "less wasted air". If I, for example, add an Em chord to a C, I am adding exactly 1 note - B, which is 1-3 extra reeds, depending on the register I am in. There is no duplication of notes possible. I don't see how an accordion that has been altered to omit certain notes would use any less air playing a Cmaj7, if that Cmaj7 contains the same 4 notes. Can you clarify what you mean? Also, if this system is really just as simple as removing the 5ths from major and minor chords and the roots from 7th and diminished, why wouldn't they just say that on the website? It seems an unnecessary mystification of a simple and straightforward idea. This is why I am wondering if there is something else special about this accordion that I am not aware of.

The pitch range of the Stradella reeds is limited, which means that some intervals are not exactly what accordionists are used to calling. This is because some intervals have a lower pitch than the root note, resulting in chords that are inversions. For example, what is commonly called a C6 chord on the Contralto reeds set (F#-F) is actually a second inversion because the lower note is a G. The same applies to diminished chords, where a C diminished chord is not made up of the notes C, Eb, and A, but instead of A, C, and Eb. This makes it more similar to a real diminished triad of A rather than a C diminished 7th. Although these are equivalent chords, the intervals are significant when it comes to harmony.

When making a CMaj7 chord by combining C and Em, you get a cluster of two semitones (B, C) because you are actually playing G, B, C, and E with the Contralto reeds. And if we change key? The Soprano and Alto reeds play from C to B, while the Contralto reeds play from F# to F. It can be quite a nightmare to map all the "real" intervals, chord inversions, octaves, and results of summing the three voices of Stradella harmony.

 

[saundersbp]

I would be more than surprised if I were to find any good rhythmic accompaniment made by a free bass accordion player.

Don't be surprised! I play tons of homophonic music on freebass accordion.
Here is an example of someone playing a Waltz where the freebass provides the rhythm section. You could play it on stradella but you'd have to compromise the accuracy of the chords and voices and relative pitch of the basses too. I think that's the point of this thread.

 

[Walker]

Lovely music with full 'n' sassy bass work.
Free bass is, in my humble consideration, the natural conclusion for an accordionist truly seeking release from the yoke of the stradella chord mechanics.

 

[saundersbp]

Lovely music with full 'n' sassy bass work

It is. And in the time honoured spirit of 'do what I say rather than do what I do', I actually play this one with Stradella bass and it sounds lovely as long as you have a nice light bass noise.

For anyone interested in an easier version: (fingerings are c-sys)

 

[Pipemajor]

Don't be surprised! I play tons of homophonic music on freebass accordion.
Here is an example of someone playing a Waltz where the freebass provides the rhythm section. You could play it on stradella but you'd have to compromise the accuracy of the chords and voices and relative pitch of the basses too. I think that's the point of this thread.

This discussion is way above my head so please excuse me if I'm talking rubbish.
My understanding of this is the question of playing the rhythm (chords and bass) on the left hand of a freebass accordion.
Watching this youtube link, I could only see the accordionist playing the bass notes on the left hand and the chords and melody with the right hand, so, in this case I would agree with Lucio. It could be the same played on a stadella instrument using the right hand for melody and chords and the left hand for the bass notes not using the chord buttons.

 

[saundersbp]

Watching this youtube link, I could only see the accordionist playing the bass notes on the left hand and the chords

Look more carefully beyond the opening section. You can zoom in !

 

[CJS Chiovarelli Jazz Syst]

Given that we have never said that the CJS is better or worse than another system ... the fact remains that all those who say that with free bass it does everything, personally I have NEVER heard Jazz played for example on the left with bass and chords . Surely for classical music the free basses are the right choice but also in this case not for everything. The first question that should be asked is the following: I have an accordion in my hand, what do I want to play?

 

[Lucio76]

Don't be surprised! I play tons of homophonic music on freebass accordion.
Here is an example of someone playing a Waltz where the freebass provides the rhythm section. You could play it on stradella but you'd have to compromise the accuracy of the chords and voices and relative pitch of the basses too. I think that's the point of this thread.

Can I ask you why in some points of the video you play just the bass and but the audio track has also chords? I assume you first recorded melody and basses and then added chords. Correct?

 

[dunlustin]

"I have an accordion in my hand, what do I want to play?"
All of a sudden light replaces heat.
Should there be automatic inclusion of this sentence in almost every topic?

 

[Lucio76]

Lovely music with full 'n' sassy bass work.
Free bass is, in my humble consideration, the natural conclusion for an accordionist truly seeking release from the yoke of the stradella chord mechanics.

I have no problem with the free bass accordion but I can't agree with your statement...free bass accordions is not a feature that makes an accordion more versatile, it's the opposite. If you have only free bass you can't play a lot of stuff or you can play it as it was a concertina...single notes:

 

[saundersbp]

Can I ask you why in some points of the video you play just the bass and but the audio track has also chords? I assume you first recorded melody and basses and then added chords. Correct?

I can't hear that myself, but it's not me playing.