Circle of 5ths and how to use it

[Waldo]

There is much repetition between the vids, but they all have good stuff. If you play CBA, this is must know stuff as the treble side follows the circle. Stradella bass, of course, follows the same rules.
Can you find the mistake in the 2ed video?

I hope these help the up and comers within our sport.

Press on....
Waldo

 

[Ffingers]

This lady, for all her annoying (to me ) way of speaking helped to clear up a few points.




She has lots more material which I have found very useful.

 

[Ffingers]

Useful info.

Comprehensive explaination, but could someone tell me why people who post these things seem to never even pause for breath when they make these videos.
Likewise, in the universality of youtube, some consideration might be afforded to folk who do not share a particular pronunciation, vowel sounds and idioms.
I'm often forced to slow down a presentation in order to absorb its content.
But at least it is actually there, I suppose.

 

[JerryPH]

In general for every video over 12 minutes reduces the % of people that watch the video to the end. This affects the YouTube algorhythm and reduces revenue. This is why people talk 500 miles an hour, never pause or have very poor teaching technique. Also some just have no idea how to educate, but just spout stuff off (I did that in one of my shorter videos and the stats prove that people don’t like that as much.

One of the reasons my mild to wild videos (not just for the 8X but Pocketwizard videos too), have the chance of being clearer and better educational tools is I don’t care to monetize, NEVER will and I was an instructor for 35 years, so I have an idea of how to deliver concepts to people listening and watching when I am of the mind to do so. One of the tools I use is speech speed variance and I try to be clear. It’s not often that you will find a 60+ minute educational video on YouTube.

Also making educational videos is more than sharing knowledge, it’s knowing HOW to share that knowledge.

Riding a bike and teaching someone to ride a bike… 2 very different things.

 

[Scuromondo]

This lady, for all her annoying (to me ) way of speaking helped to clear up a few points.




She has lots more material which I have found very useful.

I have watched several of her videos. She is a very good teacher—she has an outstanding ablity to communicate concepts with simplicity and clarity.

 

[Dingo40]

Jerry,
FWIW, personally, I find all your videos which I have watched (and I don't even have any electronic instruments) consistently excellent!??

 

[Dingo40]

Ffingers,
Don't be too hard on her, she's speaking pretty standard North American English ( as all of us TV addicts would know)?
(I've heard much worse!?)
And her expository skills, really, are also not too bad.
Although there's little redundancy and she does move along, all in all, pretty good!?
I'll need to watch it a few times to get the most out of it. Thanks for posting!??

 

[Waldo]

As mentioned before, I try to make my posts beneficial for up and coming players new to the forum. To that end, I ordered the vids above from basic to advanced. I too, found Gracie's. voice rather grating, but felt her presentation was clear and useful. The guy singled out by Ffingers was the first vid I watched, and his presentation (see criticisms above) encouraged me to try to find others (anyone find the error by this guy?). I, personally, found the tattooed guitar guy the be the best presenter, and I got the most out of his tips, as well. The circle of 5ths is every bit as useful and amazing (a word I rarely use) as is the CBA layout (B or C system).

Interested parties may wish to invest in two useful tools, available on the i-net;

1) "The Chord Wheel" by Jim Fleser, a pamphlet like publication that uses a transparent, rotatable plastic disc that aligns with the various Keys and groups (via printed lines) the Key associated elements. Very simple and useful. Included in the booklet, are additional music theory rules, such a transposition (useful for PA), composition, scales, chords modes, etc. It is a Hal Leonard publication. ISBN: 978-0-634-02142-8. I like it.

2) {"Dial a Note - Dial Harmony" by DucksDeluxe (.com). It takes a different approach and, like the vids above, supplies additional/different info.

I refer to both of them pretty regularly and recommend without reservation.

Press on....
Waldo

 

[jijitrial]

If you play CBA, this is must know stuff as the treble side follows the circle. Stradella bass, of course, follows the same rules.

I definitely see how the circle applies to the Stradella bass.

For example: D G C F Bb etc.

But could you explain what you mean by the treble side follows the circle?

I can't figure that out at all.

As mentioned before, I try to make my posts beneficial for up and coming players new to the forum.

First of all, thank you for doing this!

I wanted to start my reply saying that, but I didn't know how to change the order of the quoted messages.

 

[Waldo]

First off, I'd like to point out the Circle of 5ths has been around for 100's of years, and falls under the category of "Theory". Theory, by its very nature, is fluid. It evolves over time and is subject to changing interpretations (see: Flat Earth Theory). It is also subject to continuing discoveries. There are relationships within the Circle that are not addressed in any of these 5 videos and likely some as yet undiscovered.


The Circle of 5ths, when applied to Stradella, is commonly seen as a "roadmap" to chords and their progressions. The I, IV, V progression, being major chords, is the basis of the Stradella system. The placement of the IV and V chords, surrounding the I bass, facilitates the fingering and reduces the required hand movement necessary to accomplish this common, rudimentary bass/chord progression. Moving up or down the fundamental bass row, to re-root the Key, follows the Circle of 5ths.

On the treble side, CBA (5-row) accomplishes a similar "convenience" by means of a duplicated finger pattern, in order to achieve the same three chords (I, IV, V). When playing in any Key, the pattern remains the same. Applying this phenomenon to, say a PA, the fingering will be different for most every chord. The same applies to scales. The Circle of 5ths., while normally seen as a "dictate" for chords (I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii), also dictates scale orders and their relationships (see vid 5 - 1:20).

The relationships between scales are the same. For instance, the relative minor for "C" is "Am", for "D" it is "Bm," "F" is "Dm" and so on. If you look at your button board, you'll notice that "A" is located at the adjacent button above (visually) the "C" button. The "B" button will be found just above (visually) the "D" button (C system, B is the opposite). Keys and their relative minors, are a fundamental part of the Circle. This relationship carries on throughout the CBA layout.

The Circle also defines the locations of the various intervals (see 3rd video - 9:10) that will repeat, pattern wise, over the button board.

Some will say "This is transposition", and it is. However, transposition, via the button board ,would not be possible if there were no relationship between the button board and the Circle of 5ths. Again, I would point to the PA as an example.

As a suggestion, refer to the last two vids and apply what the guy says to your button board and see if these relationships don't jump right out.

Press on....

Waldo

 

[jijitrial]

What an elaborate reply.
Thank you, Waldo.

I think it's really cool you went the extra mile and provided timestamps.
That makes things extra clear.
I can't wait to dig through the other threads here looking for stuff for beginners.

 

[dan]

anyone find the error by this guy?

I looked but didn’t notice the error

 

[dan]

The Circle of 5ths, when applied to Stradella, is commonly seen as a "roadmap" to chords and their progressions. The I, IV, V progression, being major chords, is the basis of the Stradella system. The placement of the IV and V chords, surrounding the I bass, facilitates the fingering and reduces the required hand movement necessary to accomplish this common, rudimentary bass/chord progression. Moving up or down the fundamental bass row, to re-root the Key, follows the Circle of 5ths.

Here's a diagram I made to illustrate the "roadmap" to diatonic chords and their progressions. The Stradella system is genius!

 

[Pipemajor]

This lady, for all her annoying (to me ) way of speaking helped to clear up a few points.




She has lots more material which I have found very useful.

On thing that puzzles me with this video. She starts the order of sharps with F, then, when she draws the circle, she puts the F at 11 o clock.
Now we all know that the key of F has 1 flat, so why not start the order of sharps at C (no sharps or flats)

 

[jijitrial]

On thing that puzzles me with this video. She starts the order of sharps with F, then, when she draws the circle, she puts the F at 11 o clock.
Now we all know that the key of F has 1 flat, so why not start the order of sharps at C (no sharps or flats)

The F she put at 11 o'clock represents the key of F indeed.

But this is the order of sharps: FCGDAEB

And in this context, those letters represent the notes(that get sharpened), not keys.

The first sharp = F#
The second sharp = C#
The third sharp = G#

etc.

I may be misunderstanding you here, so I apologize in advance in case I have completely missed your point and/or added more confusion to the puzzle!

 

[donn]

The stradella layout embodies the circle of 5ths, it's easy to see the correspondence.

I hope I'm not missing something, but it seems to me the treble keyboards, piano or button, have nothing to do with the circle of 5ths. They both follow the chromatic scale, which likewise has nothing to do with the circle of 5ths. The chromatic button and the piano keyboards are ordered just the same, the buttons are just folded where the piano is straight.

The chromatic scale is occasionally used to represent the set of chord roots that belong in common major key, and as can be seen by how it lines up on the stradella side - IV-I-V-II-VI-III-VII - they're two different orderings. They draw from the same collections of notes, that's all.

 

[Waldo]

Dan; Nice Stradella chart. I'll be printing some for myself. Looks to be a good timesaver.
Error: The Circle of 5ths is only The Circle of 5ths in the clockwise direction. If you count the progression in the Counterclockwise, it moves in 4ths [The narrator refers to the C of 5ths. as continuing CC (1:08)]. Give it a try. You can make it all the way around the circle clockwise in 5ths. Then count counterclockwise by 4ths and you'll make it all the way as well.

jijitrial; Correct

Donn; The Circle of 5ths applies to more than just Chords. While I neglected to specify "5 Row" in my initial post, I did include such in my most recent. It is the presence of the additional 2 rows that allows the CBA to conform to the principles of the Circle. These principals are illustrated in the last two videos, way better that I can describe it in words. You, of course, must "transpose" from the guitar illustrations to a 5-row CBA layout. Ignore the chord stuff and concentrate on the pitch relationships and how they appear/order on the CBA. Pay attention to the statement "and reorder alphabetically".
Maybe you won't see it, I do (although it took me awhile). The two visual aids mentioned above were a big help, for me, as the relationships are grouped visually around the Circle. As mentioned above, if a rule specified by the C of 5ths, repeats, with the same button order on the keyboard, then the keyboard must, by default, be laid out based on the Circle of 5ths.
Attached is an illustration (CBA) of one reason why this works. Kudos to Thecipher.com. (Check 'em out, lots of good info)
Can't do this on a PA.

 

[dan]

Thanks for posting videos. Always more to learn about this topic. Second video is correct I think
Clockwise: up a fifth OR down a fourth
Counter clockwise: up a fourth OR down a fifth

 

[Waldo]

Counting convention. I've always known it: 5ths CW and 4ths CCW. If you count backwards (C, B, A, G, F) it is a 5th. If you count forward (C, D, E, F) it's a 4th. Guess I'm a forward looking guy.
I will, however, eat crow and call it correct in his world.

 

[Pipemajor]

The F she put at 11 o'clock represents the key of F indeed.

But this is the order of sharps: FCGDAEB

And in this context, those letters represent the notes(that get sharpened), not keys.

The first sharp = F#
The second sharp = C#
The third sharp = G#

etc.

I may be misunderstanding you here, so I apologize in advance in case I have completely missed your point and/or added more confusion to the puzzle!

Thanks for that explanation jijitrial. I now get it ( I think), but it seems a cack handed way of showing it.
We all know C= no sharps/flats. G=1 sharp (F#) etc., so, if it is a circle of 5ths (sharps and flats), why not start at 12 o clock with C , then 1 o clock with F#, 2 o clock C# etc.