Chromatic accordion

[KiwiSqueezer]

I'm new to the fascinating world of accordions. Chromatic keyboards have interested me for some time (theoretically), starting from when I tried to learn the piano. Now I realise that some accordions use such things - interesting... Forgive me if this subject has been done to death already; I've scratched around in the forum, but haven't found very much. So here's the question...

What are the relative merits of the B- and C-systems?

From my perspective of complete ignorance, B seems a little more friendly, but I'm not sure why I think that. (It's all very confusing...)

 

[losthobos]

Go B....you can slide your minor thirds to major as on piano....uphill battle with c system

 

[donn]

No one uses B ...

Seriously it seems to largely follow national boundaries, with the typical west Europe country preferring C and east Europe B, and I believe it's the reverse in Scandinavia. Each makes some things easier and other things harder, and one could theorize that this influences the typical musical style and vice versa. So you might listen to some accordion playing from Macedonia, France, etc. and decide what's for you.

Narrowly defined, the accordion typically has a chromatic keyboard, either piano or button style. You're asking about Chromatic Button Accordion.

 

[SteveBox]

There is no such thing as the best accordion keyboard system. Each system has advantages and disadvantages and regional preferences. This article is an in-depth discussion comparing the piano accordion with the chromatic button accordion, plus some discussion of the C vs. B system on the CBA.

https://nydana.se/accordiontest.pdf

This article does not discuss the many diatonic systems, which have two different notes on each button, selected by the bellows direction. Some of these are also chromatic, but let's not confuse you too much. The PA, CBA-C, and CBA-B are the most popular chromatic systems.

It is possible to have both CBA systems in one instrument, if you get a digital accordion.

 

[Chrisrayner]

Go B....you can slide your minor thirds to major as on piano....uphill battle with c system

Have you ever tried? It may be a bit easier on B system, but conversely it’s easier to slide from major to minor. I think these are trivial distinctions. Just investigate both and see which appeals to you.

 

[Walker]

@KiwiSqueezer, I don't wish to get involved in this button on button rivalry. I will say nothing. My lips are sealed...

Okay, here's just a few things to consider, but I remain totally neutral (apologies for the problems I am having with the bold highlight on some letters, it seems to be a random thing).

Perhaps one system is better than the other
I don't really know
Actually I would consider trying different systems
Not that it really matters
Okay, maybe it does...

Knowing about the different systems helps
Everyone has their own thoughts
You know it might be difficult finding a good B system in New Zealand

Rightly so, I try to be impartial
Unflinchingly neutral really
Lovely as the C system is, they might not be so cheap to buy
Every time I get involved in systems conversation, it turns into some epic debate
So I have learned not to make any controversial comments.

 

[saundersbp]

So I have learned not to make any controversial comments.

Of course, but you write a great apocryphal acrostic!

 

[losthobos]

You can always spot the classics amongst us...

 

[debra]

It seems like it's quickly becoming a "religious" discussion...
First of all, we're talking here about just a choice of keyboard layout. Whether you have a piano keyboard, uniform keyboard, Kravtsov, C system, B system, Finnish, Belgian "Do2"... all of these go with a chromatic accordion (as opposed to diatonic accordions).
The discussion seems to focus on button accordions, but the piano keyboard also has one good thing going for it: When you play in the key of C all the notes are simply in one row. For children who learn the very first basics of playing that's a huge advantage. Once you're more advanced the chromatic button accordion becomes interesting.
B or C being the dominant choices, it is mostly a geographic thing which one is dominant (in your area).
Around the year 2000 we were looking for new, better, accordions. A friend of us tried to convince us to move from PA to CBA and had we followed that advice we would now be playing B-system, because that was dominant where we were living then. It initially feels alien to a PA player, because the scale of C starting with C D E is not played with 1 2 3... But B has some things going for it as already commented (like the uphill versus downhill moves). We finally did make the move to CBA but we had also physically moved to an area where C system was and still is dominant (although really, PA is dominant here). In C system C D E is played with 1 2 3 and that felt natural to us.
The reality is that each system has pros and cons but generally CBA has more pros (regardless the system) than PA.

 

[Ffingers]

I'm new to the fascinating world of accordions. Chromatic keyboards have interested me for some time (theoretically), starting from when I tried to learn the piano. Now I realise that some accordions use such things - interesting... Forgive me if this subject has been done to death already; I've scratched around in the forum, but haven't found very much. So here's the question...

What are the relative merits of the B- and C-systems?

From my perspective of complete ignorance, B seems a little more friendly, but I'm not sure why I think that. (It's all very confusing...)

I, also being new to the accordion world, opted for CBA with B griff due to the many recommendations and comments which I encountered on the interwebs which were clearly of the opinion that, if one was not already familiar with the piano keyboard, the B system was the easiest to learn.
Being of advanced age, with little prospect of becoming even modestly proficient in my remaining years as well as intrinsically inclined to the easiest road to travel, I duly sourced a fine instrument in Australia.
Just the one!
There seemed to be just one.
Later I did find another couple but, that was it.
Almost a case of the proverbial "hens' teeth"!
Don't go there - C system are a little less scarce hereabouts, but there are plently being traded in Western Europe and the better self instructional books, by L.O.Anzaghi and by father and son Galliano, deal with piano and C system but not B griff.
I have yet to find English translations of the Ukrainian and Russian instruction material.
I'm struggling on within my own limitations, but if you want CBA, better to chose C griff for its greater universality.

 

[debra]

...
Don't go there - C system are a little less scarce hereabouts, but there are plently being traded in Western Europe and the better self instructional books, by L.O.Anzaghi and by father and son Galliano, deal with piano and C system but not B griff.
I have yet to find English translations of the Ukrainian and Russian instruction material.
I'm struggling on within my own limitations, but if you want CBA, better to chose C griff for its greater universality.

That "greater universality" of C griff is something you only see with a limited "Western eye". Considering the popularity of the accordion in Russia and China, where B griff is by far the most common system. And considering their overall population it's fair to guess that there are probably way more B griff players than C griff in the world.
That said, B griff in Europe (and its former colonies) is less popular. I have seen it mostly in Germany, the older players in the Netherlands, and parts of Belgium and former Soviet countries. C griff is common in Italy, France, Switzerland, Sweden, Norway (and Finnish system is also a variation on C griff), younger players in the Netherlands and parts of Belgium... But the accordion as a whole isn't very popular everywhere so the total number of players will certainly be lower than the world-population of B griff players.

 

[Walker]

It's really interesting that in the treble side the most common systems are piano key, B system and C system.

I do not think the various advantages and disadvantages really affect popularity except for the enquiring few. I think the historic, geographical and cultural reasons (including musical styles) might be more important. I could easily be wrong, but maybe the fact that all systems have stood the test of time means that they have earned their permanent positions. Some accordion manufacturers seem to have accepted that the ideal of 'standardisation' is not a realistic option. Of course, a great accordionist can be world champion on piano accordion or button accordion.

Sadly, what I can see happening as a possible long term outcome is that the piano accordion and the button accordion are categorised as totally separate and distinct musical instruments. In Russia, the academic study of the accordion means the piano accordion and the study of the bayan means the button accordion. The advantage is that each type of instrument develops independently and in a customised way according to its strengths. But are the broadly similar musical instruments just drifting away from one another...​

 

[saundersbp]

I do not think the various advantages and disadvantages really affect popularity except for the enquiring few.

Very true!

I think of the piano and the button accordion fingering like custard. You can make custard from a tin and get good custard - this is like a piano scale fingering. A chef though will make it from scratch by breaking eggs, whisking etc. but that initially takes longer as he has to learn all the skills involved in being a chef. However those same skills can then be deployed to make anything - this is like button fingering.

To stick strictly to music making I'll give you what I have found is the main advantage of button systems: the same fingering can be used in repeated sequences of notes at whatever pitch and not tied to keys. This is a big advantage to a musician because these sequences are how the majority of music is made up, be it folk, jazz or classical. If you look at the right hand of the attached you'll see more or less the same fingering used in all the sequences. The example attached is C system and chosen because it's sequence heavy and fingered by a top European player (also one of Bach's greatest hits). If you don't read music as this will mean nothing to you, but you can always listen to the video of the same piece and your ears will hear all the repetition of musical ideas/sequences throughout. It's also a great tune!

 

[Walker]

The gentleman playing the organ keyboard there. He's superb. I'd say he's Ambrosia Deluxe.

 

[saundersbp]

Yes, that type of keyboard is ideal for the organ! I fear this post may go over heads...

 

[Jim2010]

To stick strictly to music making I'll give you what I have found is the main advantage of button systems: the same fingering can be used in repeated sequences of notes at whatever pitch and not tied to keys. This is a big advantage to a musician because these sequences are how the majority of music is made up, be it folk, jazz or classical. If you look at the right hand of the attached you'll see more or less the same fingering used in all the sequences. The example attached is C system and chosen because it's sequence heavy and fingered by a top European player (also one of Bach's greatest hits). If you don't read music as this will mean nothing to you, but you can always listen to the video of the same piece and your ears will hear all the repetition of musical ideas/sequences throughout. It's also a great tune!

In keeping with the theme of "efficiency" of the CBA keyboard, Bach is being especially efficient here with the Sinfonia from Cantata BWV 29. It is a D major orchestration of his earlier Prelude of the E Major Violin Partita BWV 1006 and the Prelude of the somewhat expanded Lute Partita BWV 1006.

Here is Midori playing the Bach Violin Partita BWV1006


Here is Paul O'Dette playing the Bach Lute Partita BWV1006

 

[saundersbp]

In keeping with the theme of "efficiency" of the CBA keyboard

Lovely stuff! Once you've written a great tune you want to keep using it!

 

[stickista]

“When you play in the key of C all the notes are simply in one row. For children who learn the very first basics of playing that's a huge advantage.”

To show how subjective all of this is, even this is a matter of debate.
Chopin taught his students the key of C almost last, and taught B, Db, and F# first because they follow the contours of the human hand much more closely.
C is actually a pretty hard key to play because of its lack of topography.

 

[Walker]

I think of the piano and the button accordion fingering like custard. You can make custard from a tin and get good custard - this is like a piano scale fingering. A chef though will make it from scratch by breaking eggs, whisking etc. but that initially takes longer as he has to learn all the skills involved in being a chef. However those same skills can then be deployed to make anything - this is like button fingering.

I took a while to digest this custard comparison, and yes Saundersbp has a solid point here about the keyboard designs.

Here's my take on tinned custard and chefs custard - but it's not specifically related to scales etc. as considered originally.

So, the piano accordion keyboard is like tinned custard because it too is an 'off the shelf' solution. The piano accordion simply adapts the historic piano-organ keyboard layout and applies it to the accordion. For many people from the beginner to the concert virtuoso this is a design that works well. The design is an oldie but a good one and with 19mm keys as standard on many classical free bass instruments, it is a design significantly more compact than the traditional piano or organ. I see this as an excellent design for many purposes. For example, it allows comfortable hand stretches in much baroque keyboard music etc.. A keyboard range of 47 keys (before register changes) and occasionally 49 allows for a versatile repertoire.

Likewise the chromatic button accordion is like chefs custard because it is a product 'made to order' for the customer. What I mean here is that the button keyboard design is specially made for the 'space' of the accordion. It is designed to maximise the range of notes in the small surface area of an accordion. The layout of notes enables up to 64 notes on the treble (before register change). Because the buttons are much smaller than piano accordion keys and are arranged over several rows, the distance between notes is closer than on any other keyboard musical instrument. As a result it creates new shapes and patterns in the performance of scales and note sequences. When used to it's maximum potential the button layout can create new possibilities, previously unknown in western art music.

However, most accordionists will never manage to get close to the technical limits of either system and some people will simply prefer to play one keyboard design over the other, regardless of their own abilities. Also, we must consider that, as with chefs custard, there are many different recipes of chromatic button accordion. This is the primary reason why there is no universal button accordion system. Everyone has there own personal taste, and why not - the proof of the pudding is in the eating...​

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

Thanks, everyone, for your thoughts. I've just read this thread, from 2015. https://www.accordionists.info/threads/basic-b-system-fingering.1975/
Time has passed. I wonder whether poor, frustrated Leighton has given up or succeeded. Does anyone know whether there's now any more B-system tutoring material around (in English)?