agimkola
Newbie
Hi, I have a Scandalli Super VI (from 60/70s. Some notes sound louder than others in Bassoon, Clarinet, and Piccolo. Is any way to voice down the loud ones?
Can accordion be voiced?
- Thread starter agimkola
- Start date
When voicing is done properly you will notice that some notes will still sound louder than others. For starters the white keys will have a different sound then the black keys because of the position of their reed blocks. (Especially on Clarinet the black keys benefit less from the cassotto than the white keys.) And for notes for which the specific dimensions of the cassotto matches the frequency of the note the sound will become louder too. The notes with white keys will show larger volume differences because they are deeper inside the cassotto.
The difference between individual notes also comes from how well the sound resonates inside the resonance chamber in the reed block. The chamber inside the reed block should be matched to the frequency of the note, but accordion builders seem to have no idea of the math involved. I have seen the math and it's even beyond me, with a math degree. And the shape of the chambers also plays a role, which is difficult to take into account, especially considering the cutouts that are made to give the inside reed more room to vibrate without hitting the back wall of the chamber.
Voicing could be used to some extent to compensate: when you make the gap smaller the note will sound less loud and when you make it larger it will play louder. But... voicing has effect on the response at low pressure and on choking at high pressure, and when the response is wrong it will bother you a lot more than when the note sounds a bit too loud or not loud enough...
So sorry but this is all a consequence of the accordion not being engineered with scientific perfection. For instance, a well-engineered accordion with cassotto would never have the cassotto as a uniformly rectangular chamber. But I have yet to see the first accordion with a cassotto that varies in size from low to high notes... It cannot be built because the mechanism (levers and pallets) would not fit inside for the high notes...
The difference between individual notes also comes from how well the sound resonates inside the resonance chamber in the reed block. The chamber inside the reed block should be matched to the frequency of the note, but accordion builders seem to have no idea of the math involved. I have seen the math and it's even beyond me, with a math degree. And the shape of the chambers also plays a role, which is difficult to take into account, especially considering the cutouts that are made to give the inside reed more room to vibrate without hitting the back wall of the chamber.
Voicing could be used to some extent to compensate: when you make the gap smaller the note will sound less loud and when you make it larger it will play louder. But... voicing has effect on the response at low pressure and on choking at high pressure, and when the response is wrong it will bother you a lot more than when the note sounds a bit too loud or not loud enough...
So sorry but this is all a consequence of the accordion not being engineered with scientific perfection. For instance, a well-engineered accordion with cassotto would never have the cassotto as a uniformly rectangular chamber. But I have yet to see the first accordion with a cassotto that varies in size from low to high notes... It cannot be built because the mechanism (levers and pallets) would not fit inside for the high notes...
Yes and no.
Once it's built, there's not much you can do.
Reeds can be made louder or quieter, but that's done at the reed making stage.
It is possible to manipulate the reed chambers to change the reed volume, but in reality the chamber size is severely constrained by the accordion box size. Once it's built, it is only possible to reduce the chambers.
If it's literally only one or two notes, one can, theoretically, reduce the air chambers (by flooding them with wax or gluing in a baffle - I've seen the former in accordions and the latter in melodeons and my bandoneon) in hopes of choking the reed a bit, but the amount of work is not worth the effort, and, depending on where the chamber volume falls, it might boost the wolf note & make your problem worse
. And you're unlikely to find a technician who will agree to undertake this job.
This won't work for bassoon and lower clarinet range, but can have quite an effect on mid & high clarinet and piccolo.
But since it's a Super VI
a trip to Castelfidardo might sort you out. I hear there's one or two fellas who know their way around the accordion.
Once it's built, there's not much you can do.
Reeds can be made louder or quieter, but that's done at the reed making stage.
It is possible to manipulate the reed chambers to change the reed volume, but in reality the chamber size is severely constrained by the accordion box size. Once it's built, it is only possible to reduce the chambers.
If it's literally only one or two notes, one can, theoretically, reduce the air chambers (by flooding them with wax or gluing in a baffle - I've seen the former in accordions and the latter in melodeons and my bandoneon) in hopes of choking the reed a bit, but the amount of work is not worth the effort, and, depending on where the chamber volume falls, it might boost the wolf note & make your problem worse
. And you're unlikely to find a technician who will agree to undertake this job.This won't work for bassoon and lower clarinet range, but can have quite an effect on mid & high clarinet and piccolo.
But since it's a Super VI
a trip to Castelfidardo might sort you out. I hear there's one or two fellas who know their way around the accordion.
Last edited:
agimkola
Newbie
I was last year, spent $1,500 and the tuning was not great, forget the voicing...Yes and no.
Once it's built, there's not much you can do.
Reeds can be made louder or quieter, but that's done at the reed making stage.
It is possible to manipulate the reed chambers to change the reed volume, but in reality the chamber size is severely constrained by the accordion box size. Once it's built, it is only possible to reduce the chambers.
If it's literally only one or two notes, one can, theoretically, reduce the air chambers (by flooding them with wax or gluing in a baffle - I've seen the former in accordions and the latter in melodeons and my bandoneon) in hopes of choking the reed a bit, but the amount of work is not worth the effort, and, depending on where the chamber volume falls, it might boost the wolf note & make your problem worse
This won't work for bassoon and lower clarinet range, but can have quite an effect on mid & high clarinet and piccolo.
But since it's a Super VI
Flooding the resonance chamber for a note (inside the reed block) with wax is a really bad idea, because the inner valve may get stuck on the wax, especially in warm weather. It's better to use wood filler which hardens completely and does not stick.
As for that trip to Castelfidardo... you can quickly forget about finding any of the expert craftsmen who worked on the Super VI back in the 1960s and who are still able to do maintenance and repair at the level they did 60 years ago...
Very good point but that seems to have been a solution used in the past by at least the Accordiola factory... You don't even need to take the voice off... and I guess if the customer comes back to get the valve unstuck and replaced, that's a bit of extra business for the shop, right?
Glued-in blocks, baffles and wood filler sound like a more elegant solution though.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
we are talking about a Super Vl over 50 years old ?
well first i think we need to know why it took 50 years for
someone to realise there was a noticeable problem with
this specific accordion ?
since the model has a storied history, i doubt engineering is
the issue, as every one built with the original frame forms, etc.
would have had the same problem, and then obviously it
would NOT have had a storied history
so now lets get to work here.. how long has this "problem"
been objectionally noticeable ? did this begin after some
specific event, or had the box been stored unused for a long time ?
if you only purchased it recently, then where did it come from ?
can you be certain it had not been altered ?
(many famous accordions were stripped of their reeds by unscrupulous people)
whom in Italy did the servicing ? the new Scandalli factory ?
that would be interesting to note
since 50 year old leathers and valves typically need servicing,
for the $1500 i would have expected at least all new ones and
maybe even a full cleaning and re-waxing.. was this done or did they
spend your money entirely on Labor charges ?
and did this problem begin AFTER the $1500 was spent or before ?
you are in New York, so if you really want answers, you are
within reach of Jim D's repair shop..
well first i think we need to know why it took 50 years for
someone to realise there was a noticeable problem with
this specific accordion ?
since the model has a storied history, i doubt engineering is
the issue, as every one built with the original frame forms, etc.
would have had the same problem, and then obviously it
would NOT have had a storied history
so now lets get to work here.. how long has this "problem"
been objectionally noticeable ? did this begin after some
specific event, or had the box been stored unused for a long time ?
if you only purchased it recently, then where did it come from ?
can you be certain it had not been altered ?
(many famous accordions were stripped of their reeds by unscrupulous people)
whom in Italy did the servicing ? the new Scandalli factory ?
that would be interesting to note
since 50 year old leathers and valves typically need servicing,
for the $1500 i would have expected at least all new ones and
maybe even a full cleaning and re-waxing.. was this done or did they
spend your money entirely on Labor charges ?
and did this problem begin AFTER the $1500 was spent or before ?
you are in New York, so if you really want answers, you are
within reach of Jim D's repair shop..
agimkola
Newbie
That's very true!
Similar situation with Dallape Supermaestro form 1956. Piccolo reeds are just too aggressive. But trying to voice them you are risking to brake them or choke them.This is first time i run on Dallape that have so aggressive piccolo reeds and looks like voicing was done at some point because reeds tongue are lifted way more than i see on most Dallape. New wax on reeds was done and tuning was done original leathers are still in very good condition. But you don't know how will sound until you put everything back in place?
This is not really the same question. The piccolo reeds are voiced so that they start quickly and sound well. This voicing is very critical. You cannot do as much as with lower notes where voicing can be adjusted for faster response (but lower volume and choking with fortissimo) or slower response at low volume but larger volume without choking.
To tone down the aggressive piccolo... use felt positioned under the grille.
