Are chromatic button accordions faster than piano accordions?

[SteveBox]

Fast repetition of a note requires striking the same key with different fingers in succession... and his "secret weapon" is laying his fingertips along the length of a piano key such that one finger is ready to strike the instant the previous one lifts, without having to wait until the first finger moves completely out of the way. That doesn't work on a button accordion because the button is such a small target, with other buttons above and below it.

I switched from PA to CBA two decades ago, and I understand what Gary is trying to say, but I would disagree. It is easier, perhaps, on a PA to do those rapid repetitions, but with practice, your aim improves, and you can do them just fine on a CBA. And, if sometimes one of your fingers brushes against an adjacent button in a rapid repeat, the notes are so short in duration that it makes no difference to the effect and may even sound more interesting.

There is more to fast playing than just rapid repeats. How about the fact that the buttons on a CBA are spaced closer together than keys on a PA, so your fingers move shorter distances. That must make it easier on a CBA to play some fast musical phrases. I would conclude that in general, neither a PA nor a CBA is faster than the other, but for certain music it might be easier to play it fast on one vs. the other.

 

[s11141827]

I switched from PA to CBA two decades ago, and I understand what Gary is trying to say, but I would disagree. It is easier, perhaps, on a PA to do those rapid repetitions, but with practice, your aim improves, and you can do them just fine on a CBA. And, if sometimes one of your fingers brushes against an adjacent button in a rapid repeat, the notes are so short in duration that it makes no difference to the effect and may even sound more interesting.

There is more to fast playing than just rapid repeats. How about the fact that the buttons on a CBA are spaced closer together than keys on a PA, so your fingers move shorter distances. That must make it easier on a CBA to play some fast musical phrases. I would conclude that in general, neither a PA nor a CBA is faster than the other, but for certain music it might be easier to play it fast on one vs. the other.

I use a CBA for Tejano & Conjunto Music because I'm able to get that Iconic Tex Mex Sound super fast.

 

[dak]

Seriously late to the party here, since the thread is a year and a half old...
but Gary Blair, who has some notoriety as a very fast-fingered Scottish accordionist, is of the opinion PAs are faster.

I attended a workshop of his last year, and one of the things he discussed was speed-building exercises. Fast repetition of a note requires striking the same key with different fingers in succession... and his "secret weapon" is laying his fingertips along the length of a piano key such that one finger is ready to strike the instant the previous one lifts, without having to wait until the first finger moves completely out of the way. That doesn't work on a button accordion because the button is such a small target, with other buttons above and below it.
I asked him if he knew of any similar CBA speed tricks and he opined he didn't think it was possible without a long narrow target to aim all your fingers at at once.

Well, the classic repeated note piece may be Reine de Musette by J Peyronnin, played on — you guessed it — CBA.

 

[Ffingers]

6 row CBA solves the problem

 

[Walker]

Faster than a speeding bullet and more powerful than a locomotive! Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No! It's Superman a chromatic button accordion!

 

[boxplayer4000]

At the end of the day it is all down to the players ability.
However simple physics say that a button type will be faster than a piano type simply because the weight/mass of the button is much less than a piano key and the resulting inertia much less (and capable of being closed and opened faster as a result).

 

[dak]

At the end of the day it is all down to the players ability.
However simple physics say that a button type will be faster than a piano type simply because the weight/mass of the button is much less than a piano key and the resulting inertia much less (and capable of being closed and opened faster as a result).

Well, that would mean the fastest players would be playing 3-row 2-voice CBAs because of saving mass on buttons and pallets. That's not quite the case. There are also other differences in CBA construction: I have a Morino Artiste-like 4-voice that has "straight" action, with the buttons being positioned in line with the reed plates and using levers from comparatively thin sheet metal. I also have an Excelsior 4-voice that has a button board with a longer extent than the reed blocks, using more massive aluminum levers that are increasingly more crooked towards the high and low notes. That keyboard is just "mushier" particularly in the outer ranges.

Then the Swiss swear on their flat keyboards that have well-separated buttons you cannot get your fingers wedged in between, claiming that this allows for faster play. The stepped buttonboard players don't really look like their keyboard would slow them down, though.

 

[s11141827]

6 row CBA solves the problem

6 rows of buttons

 

[JerryPH]

Ok, I know, WHO'S PLAYING IT?

That is the ENTIRE answer to that question.

I play PA and would like to be fast enough to sometimes play melody for contra dances, which on some tunes go as fast as 240 notes per minute (120 metronome). I'm quite sure I'll never be nearly that fast on PA, at least not while playing crisply and accurately.

Why not? Are you a new accordionist that is over 50 years old? Have any physical issues or limitations? I'll say that if YOU can do 120-240 speeds on one, you should be able to do those speeds on the other on the style of music that you speak of.

Does the action of a CBA lend itself to faster playing than the action of a PA? It would seem so from Youtube, but maybe there are just more CBA virtuosi posting.

Yeah, you are looking at a very small percentage of people that can play well.

And if CBA's are generally faster...
How much do CBA actions vary in playing speed? And if a lot, what should I be looking at for a fast starter/practice 5-row CBA (hopefully cheap)? A Roland FR-1xb?

If you want the fastest keyboards, stay away from the Roland, in all their v-accordions this is NOT a fast keyboard, but that does not mean that you cannot play fast on one, its just a lot harder due to the mechanics.

(I've not decided on B-griff or C-griff.)

So, how long have you been playing? Was it always PA? I have an opinion about if one can play fast on a PA or not and is a CBA any faster.

Just to make it a point, I feel one CAN play fast on a PA (as fast as one needs), it just takes 3 things:
- no physical limitations (only have 2 fingers? Have arthritis? Things like that and more)
- no common sense limitations (like, are you are 65 years old and started playing accordion yesterday... lol)
- are committed to practice... consistently and A LOT.

Incidentally, it will take you EXACTLY the same amount of time and effort to get fast on either keyboard if you are starting from about the same place.

So, my 2 cents:



PS, two things... I should have warmed up, this was played cold after not playing a few days and it was not as clean as it could have sounded, but I was not going for any Guinness records (lol)... and I meant to say 120bpm with EIGHTH NOTES is the equivalent 240bpm with quarter note values.

Again, just an opinion.

 

[Siegmund]

Why is it that every time I check this thread, I feel a sudden urge to arrange the Chad Mitchell Trio's Super Skier for accordion?

 

[SteveBox]

So, my 2 cents:

Some good advice from Jerry, worth at least 5 cents I would say. But, the original question of this thread from the OP (1.5 years ago, is he still paying attention?) was whether a PA or a CBA would be better for playing contra dance music. It might be worth showing another example of this type of folk dance music. Here is a recording of a popular, but one of the more difficult contra dance tunes, Chorus Jig (actually a reel, not a jig, but never mind). I have always found this tune to be challenging to play well on an accordion at full dance tempo. Can you play along with this and keep up with the fiddler and accordionist on this recording? It is a lot harder than playing scale exercises.

BTW, I think the accordionist on this recording is playing neither a PA nor a CBA, but a diatonic button accordion. Because a DBA uses bellows reversals to select half the notes, not finger movement, this type of accordion may be theoretically faster for this type of music. However, the general answer remains that with practice, one should be able to play like this on any type of accordion, but each requires different finger movements.

 

[saundersbp]

Why is playing so fast a primary musical goal?

Surely the more important question is what keyboard provides the optimum musical results: a good stretch so music doesn't need to be changed to accommodate the keyboard technology, and so a good legato can be achieved where appropriate, and also control of articulation where appropriate.

We are talking about musical instruments not a rapid fire automatic weapon!

 

[JerryPH]

Can you play along with this and keep up with the fiddler and accordionist on this recording? It is a lot harder than playing scale exercises.

BTW, I think the accordionist on this recording is playing neither a PA nor a CBA, but a diatonic button accordion. Because a DBA uses bellows reversals to select half the notes, not finger movement, this type of accordion may be theoretically faster for this type of music. However, the general answer remains that with practice, one should be able to play like this on any type of accordion, but each requires different finger movements.

You may take my word on this one, but yes, I could. Technically it is not an extremely hard piece, but it is one that may take me 3-4 hours to learn to play at speed. I would simply treat it as 4 exercises and spend the last hour playing with the video. BTW the accordion in the video is far from playing his part per the notes you provided, he adds extra notes and arpeggios per his taste too.

Your second part is exactly all that I was trying to say, up to that 99% level it’s more about the person, then at that highest level the CBA walks away with those few techniques that are easier to do and are very hard to do on PA.

Why is playing so fast a primary musical goal?

Surely the more important question is what keyboard provides the optimum musical results: a good stretch so music doesn't need to be changed to accommodate the keyboard technology, and so a good legato can be achieved where appropriate, and also control of articulation where appropriate.

Playing fast is not the primary goal, but it should be a goal! Because it takes more than a fast keyboard to be able to play fast (like the music posted above), and therefore if you cannot do the “rapid fire”, you limit yourself to the slower and easier to play pieces. Being able to play faster also makes playing the slower parts that much easier too.

I am firm on the conviction that we do not NEED a CBA to be able to play fast. Ask Cory Pesaturo or Walter Losi if you are not sure.

The point is that for most of us, it makes little to no difference what we play, just that we do play music that puts a smile in our hearts, but once above a certain level, in specific cases, it does make a difference. The bigger question then becomes “does one plan to go to those levels and take advantage of those rare instances, or shall we be ok with not reaching those elite performance levels in our own personal playing?”.

With that knowledge each person is better armed to make the best choice for themselves.

 

[Walker]

You may take my word on this one, but yes, I could. Technically it is not an extremely hard piece, but it is one that may take me 3-4 hours to learn to play at speed. I would simply treat it as 4 exercises and spend the last hour playing with the video.

Of course Jerry, you would eat Chorus Jig (though it's not a jig) up for breakfast and still need your pancakes with maple syrup and a side order of bacon after it... There is nothing complex whatsoever about this tune, but what could make it lovely is the musicality you would add to it... a hint of long/short swing to those quavers, a rock solid tempo (always leading with a good punchy bass) and some more interesting bass/chord harmonies. Indeed, it could be a nice little starter tune before slipping a few more tunes into the medley and ending on something a bit fancier. ​

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello there.

After further experienced, I have come two realizations.

First, how fast you can really play the accordion it really depends of the innate potential of the musician and its expertise.

Technically speaking, the button layout should be faster than the keyboard, but of course, that could not compensate for any considerable handicap from its owner, if is compared againts someone with more training and proper technique on a keyboard layout.

 

[SteveBox]

Technically it is not an extremely hard piece

BTW the accordion in the video is far from playing his part per the notes you provided, he adds extra notes and arpeggios per his taste too.

I don't think any contra dance music is technically difficult for an experienced accordionist, but tunes like Chorus Jig that are mostly eighth notes are harder than others to play at the speed required (240 notes per minute). As far as not following the written music, good dance musicians never follow written music. It is folk/fiddle music, and only published in collections for the benefit of beginners and as a simplified guideline. Good musicians always improvise on the tune and do not play it the same way each time through.

My comments and challenge were not directed to anyone in particular. I was only trying to bring the discussion back to the original question. Although the general question was about speed, the OP's goal was to be a good contra/folk dance musician.