Annoying bass vibration with your V-accordion?

[JerryPH]

... I have the answer!

Well, I did not originally come up with this answer, that honor goes to Jim D. (no surprise there... lol). I was playing with the FR-8X at full volume using the deep orchestral bass and if I pushed or pulled really hard, I could get the accordion to demonstrate a wierd bass vibration. Some reading in the Yahoo FR-8X forum pointed the issue to lose screws in the bass side.

Taking the lead set by Jim, I followed his guide and even made a couple of improvements. The result is that my V-Accordion now sounds as good at maximum volume settings as it does at all other volume levels.

If you have one and it needs this modification, it is not hard, takes perhaps an hour of your time, some gaskets, a touch of silicone and some blue Loctite and a modicum of care and DIY abilities. Id rate the difficulty of this project a 2 out of 10.

Here is how I did it, pics and all: Accordion Memories - Bass Vibration Fix

 

[Glenn]

Thanks for the detailed description. I dont have the problem (yet). As the accordion ages though I'm sure it'll rear it's ugly head so your post will be a good source of courage to open it.

 

[JIM D.]

This problem of bass vibration only appeared on early models of the FR-8x. After finding an in house fix and notifying Roland of the solution, all models after 2015 appeared with the problem solved.
And just as a note, Ive been toying with the new 4x. I plan to spend some serious time with it this coming week and will submit my complete comments on the Forum. In my short time with the new 4x (PA model) Ive found some great positives - for one is that the keyboard is awesome in its speed and touch. This can be credited to the firm Fatar ---
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatar ---
-- http://www.fatar.com/ --
who now makes the V accordion line.
the new screen is also much more user friendly as compared to the 3x.
The only negative Ive found so far (my personal opinion) is just like the 3x, the new 4x has no palm (wrist) shift. The only other negative (and for dealers only) is that the 4x will have the same price tag as the 3x.
A negative for dealers that have 3xs still on the shelf, but a positive for a buyer wishing a (new old stock) 3x, as many dealers are offering a free BK-7 with the purchase of a leftover 3x :tup:

 

[JerryPH]

This problem of bass vibration only appeared on early models of the FR-8x. After finding an in house fix and notifying Roland of the solution, all models after 2015 appeared with the problem solved.

I guess mine slipped through. It has a build date of February 2016.

In my short time with the new 4x (PA model) Ive found some great positives - for one is that the keyboard is awesome in its speed and touch. This can be credited to the firm Fatar...

They say that the keyboard is just like the 8X. If that is so, this might be a huge improvement over the 3X, but it still is a pretty poor keyboard compared to something like the one on my Morino VI N. I find it deep as heck, slow and very challenging to get fast runs out of. I can literally play hard passages double the speed on the Hohner than when on the Roland. I guess this is an edge that has to go to the Bugari Evo, though I have never yet tried one.

The only other negative (and for dealers only) is that the 4x will have the same price tag as the 3x. A negative for dealers that have 3xs still on the shelf, but a positive for a buyer wishing a (new old stock) 3x, as many dealers are offering a free BK-7 with the purchase of a leftover 3x :tup:

Wow, thats huge! A new BK retails for around $999.00 and thats a substantial discount for a $4300 instrument... and I see people already discounting them quite heavily for something just newly released (http://www.theaccordionshop.co.uk/accordions/roland-fr-4x-120-bass-compact-v-accordion/ )! But a 3X with a free BK... wow, I am sure that is very attractive to people that were on the fence about getting one!

 

[JIM D.]

The 4x keyboard is now a Fatar design and the 8x still is a Roland design. Ya just got to try one !!
The piano & string effects are equal to the modern pro-keyboards on the market today. As for your make date - your box might have been sitting on the shelf (Italy) and tagged when it was exported. You see 8x models were made by Roland of Italy for a period of time before Roland made the decision to terminate all the Roland (Italian made) products to somewhere else on the globe. They did however decide to leave their production "V" accordions to the Italian firm of Fatar (a brilliant move) and all concerns with "V" accordion models were quickly addressed. The Bass vibration issues on new 8x's have been corrected on new 8x's and the older 8x's (if you care can be corrected by your local dealer) or you can ship to Roland for a solution. Your DIY fix on your 8x is far and above the necessary fix.
Another note, - I will post my impressions on the new 4x shortly when I have some time to spare :roll: but I must say without trying it, my first impression,was that it looked like an 8x that someone polished it with "Preparation H" and it shrunk :lol:

 

[JerryPH]

The 4x keyboard is now a Fatar design and the 8x still is a Roland design. Ya just got to try one !!

Im sure that one day I will, however, right now I dont think it appeals to me as much as an 8x. I love the full size, I definitely want a palm master switch and I am thankfully in good enough physical condition where size makes no differences for me. I dont want to lose any features that I have now, so going to a 4X for me is too big of a step down. One day, who knows.

The Bass vibration issues on new 8xs have been corrected on new 8xs and the older 8xs (if you care can be corrected by your local dealer) or you can ship to Roland for a solution. Your DIY fix on your 8x is far and above the necessary fix.

But if it works, and addresses the issue, and I lose use of the accordion for a mere 60 minutes, its well worth it.

Another note, - I will post my impressions on the new 4x shortly when I have some time to spare :roll: but I must say without trying it, my first impression,was that it looked like an 8x that someone polished it with Preparation H and it shrunk :lol:

Either start a new thread or post here, I definitely wont mind hearing about the 4X. Anything that does good for the accordion now a days is a good thing and the 4X is making some positive ripples in the pond all around the world!!

 

[Thomas N]

Thanks to you both for all of this really good information. I don't have the bass problem with my FR-8X (2015 model) and I use a string bass at near full volume often.

I don't find the keyboard deep or difficult at all. I played synthesizers for years and always loved the synth-action keybed which is what the FR-8X seems most similar to me. In fact, I find fast treble runs to be much easier on the FR-8X than on my acoustic Excelsior 960 customized with the very fast-action low-travel Magnante keyboard.

Jim really makes me want to try out the FR-4X keyboard now, though!

 

[Keymn]

On my 4x, I rarely have the main volume over 1/2. Orchestra bass Left hand - medium fixed, accordion left hand - Med fixed and bellows. I am surprised hearing that the 8x has more power and some using full volume? Do we need to drive these more for a typical strolling gig or small show?

 

[JerryPH]

On my 4x, I rarely have the main volume over 1/2. Orchestra bass Left hand - medium fixed, accordion left hand - Med fixed and bellows. I am surprised hearing that the 8x has more power and some using full volume? Do we need to drive these more for a typical strolling gig or small show?

I like mine at 3/4 to full volume even during normal use, it just gives me more dynamic range, not that one plays at full volume all the time.

I am spoiled with the Morino because it is a very loud instrument of itself, so my ears are kind of used to having that volume available.

As for volume needed when strolling, a lot depends on where. If you are in a group of 75 people who are there to listen to you, even 3/4 volume is adequate, but if you are in a bit of a rowdy beer hall with lots of noise, laughing and talking, even full volume is not quite enough. I love the idea of wireless stereo audo and MIDI and am currently researching this for me next purchase.

 

[Keymn]

On my 4x, I rarely have the main volume over 1/2. Orchestra bass Left hand - medium fixed, accordion left hand - Med fixed and bellows. I am surprised hearing that the 8x has more power and some using full volume? Do we need to drive these more for a typical strolling gig or small show?

I like mine at 3/4 to full volume even during normal use, it just gives me more dynamic range, not that one plays at full volume all the time.

I am spoiled with the Morino because it is a very loud instrument of itself, so my ears are kind of used to having that volume available.

As for volume needed when strolling, a lot depends on where. If you are in a group of 75 people who are there to listen to you, even 3/4 volume is adequate, but if you are in a bit of a rowdy beer hall with lots of noise, laughing and talking, even full volume is not quite enough. I love the idea of wireless stereo audo and MIDI and am currently researching this for me next purchase.

Yes you are correct, this weekend I had a noisy room, had to crank up almost full volume. As far as what I have for wireless audio is mono, not stereo. Do not know of any wireless stereo except, I did buy this from China....which was inexpensive (you get what you pay for). It did not work, kept cutting out. Although it is pictured hooked to a VAccordion.
http://www.accordions-asia.com/wireless/Wireless Audio transmitter and receiver.php

 

[debra]

...
I am spoiled with the Morino because it is a very loud instrument of itself, so my ears are kind of used to having that volume available.
...

If you think you are spoiled with the Morino because it is very loud you may not have experienced many other instruments... I play in an orchestra where the Morino is the dominant instrument and in a quintet with 3 Morinos (and one Bugari and a bass accordion). With both my Bugari and with my AKKO I have to be careful to not destroy the balance too much as both are much louder than the Morinos. I have a Morino myself and have experienced first hand that the dynamic range of a Morino is rather limited (the range between the lowest volume you can use where reeds still sound and the highest volume you can safely produce) compared to a modern Bugari, Pigini, AKKO or other instruments.
Im talking about Morino N and S here. The Morino M series was louder. The newer Morinos made by Pigini probably are too.

If you consider the Morino loud compared to the Roland it just means that the Rolands built-in amplifier/speaker combination is not very powerful.

 

[Keymn]

...
I am spoiled with the Morino because it is a very loud instrument of itself, so my ears are kind of used to having that volume available.
...

If you think you are spoiled with the Morino because it is very loud you may not have experienced many other instruments... I play in an orchestra where the Morino is the dominant instrument and in a quintet with 3 Morinos (and one Bugari and a bass accordion). With both my Bugari and with my AKKO I have to be careful to not destroy the balance too much as both are much louder than the Morinos. I have a Morino myself and have experienced first hand that the dynamic range of a Morino is rather limited (the range between the lowest volume you can use where reeds still sound and the highest volume you can safely produce) compared to a modern Bugari, Pigini, AKKO or other instruments.
Im talking about Morino N and S here. The Morino M series was louder. The newer Morinos made by Pigini probably are too.

If you consider the Morino loud compared to the Roland it just means that the Rolands built-in amplifier/speaker combination is not very powerful.

No arranger keyboard that I know of have built in speakers to give that bass boom or is designed for audience. Roland does a good job on there speakers equal or better than most arrangers. I noticed EQ settings on my 4x can effect volume.

 

[Keymn]

...
I am spoiled with the Morino because it is a very loud instrument of itself, so my ears are kind of used to having that volume available.
...

If you think you are spoiled with the Morino because it is very loud you may not have experienced many other instruments... I play in an orchestra where the Morino is the dominant instrument and in a quintet with 3 Morinos (and one Bugari and a bass accordion). With both my Bugari and with my AKKO I have to be careful to not destroy the balance too much as both are much louder than the Morinos. I have a Morino myself and have experienced first hand that the dynamic range of a Morino is rather limited (the range between the lowest volume you can use where reeds still sound and the highest volume you can safely produce) compared to a modern Bugari, Pigini, AKKO or other instruments.
Im talking about Morino N and S here. The Morino M series was louder. The newer Morinos made by Pigini probably are too.

If you consider the Morino loud compared to the Roland it just means that the Rolands built-in amplifier/speaker combination is not very powerful.

</QUOTE>

 

[Keymn]

No arranger keyboard that I know of have built in speakers to give that bass boom or is designed for audience. Roland does a good job on there speakers equal or better than most arrangers. I noticed EQ settings on my 4x can effect volume. Just like EQ on a mixer, increasing gain for each frequency gives you more volume.

 

[JerryPH]

If you consider the Morino loud compared to the Roland it just means that the Rolands built-in amplifier/speaker combination is not very powerful.

Nope, that is an incorrect assumption, Paul, I meant exactly what I said. The Roland internal speaks at around 50 watts/channel is more than adequate as I played using the internal speakers only during a restaurant meeting where there were just under 100 people, everyone had no issues hearing me clearly even with strong singing and conversation in attendance. If I need more, there are external sound systems that can accommodate any need out there, if needed, and with ZERO chance of feedback, something no acoustic accordion player can ever say.

The fact is that the Morino is louder. Its not a hundred times louder, but it is quite a bit louder. Compared to the few Bugari Artiste that were in my orchestra, they were not louder than any of the other Excelsiors, Hohners or Petosas in attendance, and even at 13 years old, I was able to out-volume them.

Bayans are another beast. I have never heard an AKKO, but to date I have heard a Pigini Bayan and a Jupiter Bayan in person, and they were LOUD. In particular, the Jupiter... it almost did not need a sound system to play a perfect performance in a 300 person auditorium (though a sound system was used)... and not just loud, but a beautiful tonality too, unlike anything I have ever heard before.

 

[debra]

...
Nope, that is an incorrect assumption, Paul, I meant exactly what I said. The Roland internal speaks at around 50 watts/channel is more than adequate as I played using the internal speakers only during a restaurant meeting where there were just under 100 people, everyone had no issues hearing me clearly even with strong singing and conversation in attendance. If I need more, there are external sound systems that can accommodate any need out there, if needed, and with ZERO chance of feedback, something no acoustic accordion player can ever say.

The fact is that the Morino is louder. Its not a hundred times louder, but it is quite a bit louder. Compared to the few Bugari Artiste that were in my orchestra, they were not louder than any of the other Excelsiors, Hohners or Petosas in attendance, and even at 13 years old, I was able to out-volume them.

Bayans are another beast. I have never heard an AKKO, but to date I have heard a Pigini Bayan and a Jupiter Bayan in person, and they were LOUD. In particular, the Jupiter... it almost did not need a sound system to play a perfect performance in a 300 person auditorium (though a sound system was used)... and not just loud, but a beautiful tonality too, unlike anything I have ever heard before.

50 watts per channel should indeed be more than adequate unless you need to fill a whole concert hall with sound.

Accordions have evolved quite a bit (since you were 13...). Manufacturers are trying to squeeze more and more volume out of the instruments.
My experience today is that the recent Bugari Artist Cassotto instruments do overpower the Morinos (different models, all Morino N series, including a VI N). I have a smallish 540/ARS/C and it is *loud*. We (the orchestra Accordeana) gave a concert with choir last year, playing Adios Nonino, where we had a soloist on a Morino and all through the rehearsals we had trouble hearing the solo. Then one day she was ill and I played the solo on the Bugari and suddenly everyone commented that they could finally hear the solo very well.

The Bayan (AKKO and Jupiter are quite similar in volume, just a bit different in timbre) is still louder than my Bugari but not by much. Both are much louder than all Morino N or S series accordions I have heard and tried. I also played a Pigini Sirius bayan recently and it is equally loud. Its all in the construction of the instrument. One difference that I do notice is that the pallets on a Morino do not open a lot in the cassotto. The pallets of my Bugari and of the Bayans open further. This enables more sound volume and also reduces the drop in frequency that occurs on the Morino. (When you place the reed block on a tuning table the A=440 plays about 1 Hz higher than it does in the instrument.)

The timbre of the old Morinos is still to die for. They produce a lovely sound that none of the newer instruments can replicate. Which is one reason why I am holding on to my Morino despite having and using my other accordions more.