Alternatives to Cassotto

[Ganza]

Im wondering if anyone knows about the effectiveness in terms of.replicating the cassotto sound of alternatives like thr muffler slide and something called the 'registre peigne'in french.
Do these actually sound like cassottos and are they lighter than cassottos?
Any information is appreciated, thanks

 

[Soulsaver]

A sordina blind (assssuming you've got nothing else in mind as muffler) is lighter than cassotto... both in terms of weight, and tonal change. The effect is noticeable, but it's not as nearly defined as cassotto.
I have seen models that encase the treble pallets in a box under the grill and a slider to open/close shutters... I'd guess this would be more effective than a blind, and heavier, but I haven't heard one.

 

[Corinto]

About REGISTRE À PEIGNE see here = http://www.mon-accordeon.com/registre-peigne

Avec ce système, chaque touche du clavier de base actionne une deuxième soupape située sous le clavier (au dos de linstrument). Lintérêt est quil donne plus de profondeur et de chaleur à la voix concernée; la deuxième soupape apportant également plus de musicalité à lensemble des voix main droite avec un meilleur équilibre.

Unfortunately my english is not good enough to translate this fairly.

 

[goldtopia]

Theres an accordion (don't remember what make it is) that has saucepan lids on the grill which I guess opens and closes which presumably controles volume and sound quality.

 

[donn]

Looking at the whole registre peigne page, its the same thing that debra reminds me I call declassement in my accordion, adds an octave down transposition register. I suppose you could describe the effect as they do, deeper and warmer, but its specifically playing the L reed bank an octave lower. Where it can - naturally, at the bottom octave of the keyboard, the L reed bank doesnt have octave lower reeds to support this gimmick, so it goes back up to the regular octave. I dont think it would be in any way a similar effect to a cassotto. Nor do I think its worth the mechanical complexity, though my perspective may be soured by a particularly poor implementation, dont know. Mine has a couple notes where the linkage has come loose and I have no idea how to fasten it back together reliably, and it has a few others where apparently to solve the same problem someone has cut the original linkage out and done a nasty looking job soldering a swivel in to replace it.

 

[Soulsaver]

Theres an accordion (dont remember what make it is) that has saucepan lids on the grill which I guess opens and closes which presumably controles volume and sound quality.

Several ... Scandalli, Parrot (copy of the Scandalli) Settimio Soprani immediately spring to mind. Must have been a fad?

 

[debra]

The only thing that sounds like a cassotto is a cassotto. Sorry. But, you can get a cassotto sound without implementing a real cassotto by extending (and probably folding) the "tube" through which the sound of each note goes. Some accordions for instance have an L-shaped reed block for the lowest bass reeds. the sound of the reeds does not exit the block right where the reed is but travels through a tube of something like 6 cm in length. Modern bass accordions use a U shape: the reeds are mounted on one end of the U and the sound travels through the other leg of the U before leaving the instrument. This has the same effect of an L-shaped reed block but the block is much more compact. In theory this construction also allows to allow the sound to exit from either side of the U or through only one side, creating more tonal variations. I have not checked but I think something like this is done in the Beltuna "Amplisound" switch.

 

[Deleted member 48]

Cassotto and tone chambers can have different shapes or be in different places.
Ive always liked the mellow tone of the Schrammelharmonika and some duet concertinas.

Johann Klein patented in 1862 his Privilegium for a Vertiefung im Gehäuse of the accordion / Schrammelharmonika.
He put the valves and the plate deeper inside the accordion.

You can see a copy of the drawings here one page 31 of this pdf masters thesis on the Schrammelharmonika:
http://schrammelharmonika.nonfoodfactory.org/Andreas_Teufel/

pages 9, and pages 25-27 explain why this makes the sound more mellow, muting harmonics.

Concertina makers can use similar techniques for muting harmonics.

 

[Deleted member 48]

There still may be room for innovation in the production of tone chambers and cassottos.
Another way of creating some extra cavity, or tone chamber, is a simple tone modulator, shown here:
http://www.accordionlab.com/accordionlab/EducationResearch/tonechambervstonemodulator.pdf

This type of tone modulator produces a different sound for all the reeds lying under the tone modulator.

The early Viennese Schrammelharmonika makers made early types of such tone modulators, creating one big tone chamber on the treble side, putting the soundboard, valves and reeds a few centimers deeper inside the instrument, as seen here:
http://www.bandonion.info/de/solo,345.htm#

I dont know if some technician or accordion maker has written something (articles? book?) about cassottos, tone chambers, tone modulators ?
Maybe reed organ and harmonium makers know more about acoustics in tone chambers.

The tone modulator may be an easier to make alternative to a more complex (?) cassotto?

 

[Deleted member 48]

here are some good photo pics of a wooden tone modulator:

http://www.accordiongallery.com/arpeggio

quote:
High quality wooden tone modulator, American walnut keyboard, excellent treble valves -
features that can only be found in the best accordions from the Golden Age

 

[Soulsaver]

Yep - looks a beauty... and has cassotto, as well!

 

[Deleted member 48]

It would be interesting to compare the sound effects of an accordion with cassotto without tone modulator, and a cassotto + tone modulator accordion like this model.

Maybe there is enough room inside some accordions to install a double wood grill "tone modulator", and see what the sound effects would be compared to a single "tone modulator" grille.
One could experiment with the spacings between the two "tone modulators", even making some woodwork rosettes (if these would have effect or sense on acoustics) or some other wooden constructions.
Even installing leather or wooden baffles like concertina baffles could be subject of experiments.

 

[nagant27]

This is very interesting topic to me. I have found that a tone chamber is really the only way to get the best desired effect. I have experimented with some other things as well. I have an excelsior 4 rocker accordion that I have tried a few things to mimic a sordina. I first tried a piece of cardboard under the grill. This gives it a mellow sound, definitely muffles it, but it also just sounds muted. It looses a lot of the "singing" tone characteristics. After this I cut a piece of sheet metal and placed that under the grill. This sounded better. Gave the muted effect but didn't loose some of the nice rich tone. Still is no where close to the chamber though.
I was thinking sometime of trying to place a very thin wood that can be warped or bent to fit the roundness of the grill and see how that sounds. My guess is this will sound the best. The sordina that is like a wooden box with windows that can be opened and closed, as opposed to simply on the grill seems to me to sounds the best. (like the arpeggio someone earlier showed a link to) Excelsiors with a slide mute have these. I mostly stick with the bassoon sound or 2 middles with this, if I want a full master sound for like polka this mute sound doesn't really work. The organ high low actually is pretty nice too.
With all these things I have tried I have never altered the accordion in any way and it is actually pretty fun to try and experiment with them. In conclusion though the effect of the chamber is just better. the sound has a chance to travel and develop whereas the sordina is just a mute. It takes away some of the "edge" but you loose a lot of the tonal character.

 

[nagant27]

debra
I think this a beltuna with that amplisound feature you are referring to

 

[debra]

Yep, the Leader models (Leader IV and Leader V) have that amplisound feature. No explanation of what it does in the video...

 

[JIM D.]

This Amplisound feature is not new as it was patented in the late 50's early 60's by Iorio of New York, NY. Beltuna has revived this feature in some of their top of the line models. How this works is using shifts on the treble grill, a shoe is moved inside the tone camber to increase or decrease the tone chambers cavity. The desired effect is to enhance the camber reed's tonal quality's. This feature disappeared some 40 years back as it was an expensive addition to the accordion and the enhanced tonal quality's were not very dramatic.

 

[nagant27]

Didn't iorio also make some longer reed blocks to give a sort of chamber effect, without a traditional tone chamber??

 

[JIM D.]

Not longer reed blocks but they used a wooden baffle in the bellows to enhance the treble reeds. Another feature that fell by the wayside.

 

[nagant27]

Seems like pretty good ideas from Iorio. Was the sound difference just not there for it to catch on? too heavy maybe?

Ive seen Iorios on ebay that say tone chamber on them, but there is no "traditional chamber". Is this what they are?

 

[Deleted member 48]

some information on resonance in free reed bellows instruments:
http://www.concertina.org/2009/12/05/reed-cavity-design-and-resonance/

Cassottos are mentioned in this article:
Tone chamber vibrations, however, do significantly alter the sound of the musical tone (volume and timbre) for those reeds that present partials with frequencies that match the resonant frequencies of the tone chamber (a phenomenon discussed in more detail below).

Further refinement of a cassotto is talked about here (see photo with Special sound box additional to cassotto chamber):
http://www.bradfordaccordionband.org.uk/cassotto-revealed/

comparing goatskin leather baffles and wooden baffles in concertinas:
http://www.concertina.com/gaskins/baffles/

Its a huge topic, this field of research... these tone chambers and tone modulators in bellows instruments.
I need to read a lot more about it...
The American Reed Organ and the Harmonium, by Robert F. Gellerman, also talks about acoustics in tone chambers in harmoniums and reed organs.