• If you haven't done so already, please add a location to your profile. This helps when people are trying to assist you, suggest resources, etc. Thanks

Air leaking during drop test

Gonk

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
34
Reaction score
6
Location
Maine, USA
The leak being strongest in the master register doesn't narrow it down much. That's when holes are open for each reed rank.

If you suspect the pallets, I'd actually suggest another test, using light -- open up the box, keeping the bellows pins in order, take out all the treble reedblocks, go to a dark place with one lamp, and shine the lamp from the grill side while looking at the fondo with the master register selected. If you see any light, even a glow, that's a likely leak.
 
Last edited:

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
171
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
I meant that when I press F4 note during play I hear knock in register bar and I think but I am not sure that It could lift the key a little bit.

In addition: I have found that air leaking is in master register (in my accordion it is LMM).
What to do in this case?
OK. The lever (arm) hitting the register bar is annoying but that noise is when you press the key and cannot affect what happens when the key is released. So it's an unrelated problem to the air leak. (It requires some careful inspection on how to possibly avoid the lever hitting the bar...)
In master register you have number of notes times 3 openings through which air can leak. WIth a single reed (L or M) you have fewer openings, thus less air loss.
To find out whether the air is coming out through one or more specific notes there is the cigarette paper test: press a key, put a (thinnest kind) cigarette paper under the pallet, release the key (so the paper is between pallet and soundboard) and check how much force it takes to pull the paper out. When the paper slides out all too easily (also compared to with other pallets) then that note is a source of air leak. (You fix it using either the hairdryer method to soften the wax so you can push the pallet down a bit, or you can bend the arm down a bit using a "torciferri" tool.)
 

yaroslav9728

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
37
Reaction score
2
Location
Toronto, СA
One time, I opened the right part of an accordion to look what happens with reeds and I found that some reeds have leathers some not. Is it a reason why accordion has air leaking and bad compression, especially on the treble side?
 

Gonk

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
34
Reaction score
6
Location
Maine, USA
Yes, that will contribute to it for sure - and also weaken those notes and change (drop) their pitch. The reason it contributes to leakage is that it puts constant air pressure against those pallets, so it's still worth checking those while you're in there.
 

yaroslav9728

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
37
Reaction score
2
Location
Toronto, СA
Yes, that will contribute to it for sure - and also weaken those notes and change (drop) their pitch. The reason it contributes to leakage is that it puts constant air pressure against those pallets, so it's still worth checking those while you're in there.
Did you see this issue in Hohner Lucia/Pirola piano accordions?
 

JIM D.

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Apr 30, 2013
Messages
4,616
Reaction score
146
First of all the reeds you see without leathers should be the small high pitch reeds - usually 5 to 7 on the end of a reed block and
is normal.
I've been reading this thread for 5 days now and have not commented as my advice would only echo good advice already
given. So far it seems you have a treble pallet (valve) that is not seated properly. I do see a hint of a situation that might have
caused your problem. You mentioned the pallet rod (arm) hitting the shift machine. This just might have caused the arm to be
now slightly misaligned and causing the pallet to be off center. In this case the arm will have to be realigned WITH THE PROPER
TOOLS. 90% of accordionists are unaware of this repair procedure so don't feel bad If you need to take your accordion to a
repair shop. It will only take a tech with the proper tools 5 to 10 minutes to straighten the rod and reseat the pallet.
 

yaroslav9728

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
37
Reaction score
2
Location
Toronto, СA
First of all the reeds you see without leathers should be the small high pitch reeds - usually 5 to 7 on the end of a reed block and
is normal.
I've been reading this thread for 5 days now and have not commented as my advice would only echo good advice already
given. So far it seems you have a treble pallet (valve) that is not seated properly. I do see a hint of a situation that might have
caused your problem. You mentioned the pallet rod (arm) hitting the shift machine. This just might have caused the arm to be
now slightly misaligned and causing the pallet to be off center. In this case the arm will have to be realigned WITH THE PROPER
TOOLS. 90% of accordionists are unaware of this repair procedure so don't feel bad If you need to take your accordion to a
repair shop. It will only take a tech with the proper tools 5 to 10 minutes to straighten the rod and reseat the pallet.
Oh yeah, I have noticed that when I play f4 pitch I hear knocking of pallet arm to switches bar and probably it causes air leaking. I have conducted one experiment I remove switches bar and not air leaking. Interesting, why?
Ok, if to do this through accordion repair shop, what is the price can be for it approximately?
 
Last edited:

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
171
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
Oh yeah, I have noticed that when I play f4 pitch I hear knocking of pallet arm to switches bar and probably it causes air leaking. I have conducted one experiment I remove switches bar and not air leaking. Interesting, why?
Ok, if to do this through accordion repair shop, what is the price can be for it approximately?
Let me repeat: the arm knocking the switches bar when you push the f4 key may be annoying but it is not related to the air leak issue which exists only when the key is released and the pallet is closed. Let me also repeat: please try the cigarette paper test and report whether the paper can be pulled out more easily on some pallets than on others. When the paper can be pulled out easily it means the pallet is leaking. There is also another test: open up the accordion, remove the treble blocks, switch on the master register, make the room dark (turn off lights, close curtains) and shine a flashlight from where the reed blocks were towards the "outside". Move along the whole treble area and see if any light peaks through. When you can see the light coming through a pallet it means that pallet is leaking. (I have not tried this method because the cigarette paper test works just as well and is easier.)
 

Gonk

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
34
Reaction score
6
Location
Maine, USA
Hi Paul! I recommended the light test earlier, and Jim just mentioned a pretty clear way that the knock and the possible pallet misalignment could be connected. If that's what's up, I think they would both need to be fixed in order to keep the problem from returning.
 

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
171
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
Hi Paul! I recommended the light test earlier, and Jim just mentioned a pretty clear way that the knock and the possible pallet misalignment could be connected. If that's what's up, I think they would both need to be fixed in order to keep the problem from returning.
Sure they both need to be fixed, because each time you press the key the knock against the register bar pushes the arm holding the arm down a bit. After many keypresses you would start noticing that the key sits higher than the adjacent keys. But the first thing to check is whether the pallet is currently still seated and closing correctly... Both issues need to be solved and may be connected, but first the leak has to be confirmed and the reason for it identified.
 

Ventura

Active member
Joined
Nov 4, 2019
Messages
205
Reaction score
72
Location
mid-atlantic, USA
in general i have noticed that, particularly on older round aluminum keyactions that this is not precision engineering ( as compared to more uniform flat action assemblies ) and if the felts that limit keytravel have been eaten by mealybugs or flattened completely over time, then the keyaction ( especially one of the crazy twisted arm types to get it to fit ) can start hitting some other part like the treble shift assembly

close observation should reveal this, and suggest obvious remedies ( refurbing the worn out stuff ) as opposed to trying to bend the arm or file off a tiny bit of something , which is a bandaid approach to a bigger overall problem

in general small spot repairs in the face of (likely) serious general material failure across the board is a waste of time as the problems will pop right back up on other keys in short order

replacing ALL the treble pad leathers is gonna take less time than talking about it ( don't dorget the front felt strip, as our friend with the Scandalli just did with photos posted in a different thread)
 

yaroslav9728

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
37
Reaction score
2
Location
Toronto, СA
Hi again, I would like to know something about it.
I have noticed that some pallets do not stay properly according to reed valves. May it influence on air leaking or not?

P.S. I know that I repeat this question many times but I very concerned about condition of my accordion that doesn't allow me to think about playing skills, etc.
 
Last edited:

Gonk

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
34
Reaction score
6
Location
Maine, USA
Yaroslav, if I understand correctly, and your pallets are wiggling or landing in different places sometimes, yes, that can produce leaks, if they're not covering the holes well. You could try the light test as suggested above, and play the keys while looking for spots where light shines through.
 

debra

Been here for ages!
Technical Adviser
Site Supporter
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
3,310
Reaction score
171
Location
Eindhoven, the Nnetherlannds
Hi again, I would like to know something about it.
I have noticed that some pallets do not stay properly according to reed valves. May it influence on air leaking or not?

P.S. I know that I repeat this question many times but I very concerned about condition of my accordion that doesn't allow me to think about playing skills, etc.
Not 100% sure what you are saying, but if the levers (arms) are long and the keys can move a little bit left and right then the pallets (at the end) may not always land in exactly the same spot. The keyboard is supposed to have some mechanism ("comb") that guides the key so horizontal motion is virtually impossible and the keys should also have no play at the pivot point, all this to prevent the play where the pallet lands.
 

yaroslav9728

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
37
Reaction score
2
Location
Toronto, СA
Not 100% sure what you are saying, but if the levers (arms) are long and the keys can move a little bit left and right then the pallets (at the end) may not always land in exactly the same spot. The keyboard is supposed to have some mechanism ("comb") that guides the key so horizontal motion is virtually impossible and the keys should also have no play at the pivot point, all this to prevent the play where the pallet lands.
I meant, if pallets don't stay on reed holes properly, may it cause air leaking on the treble side?
 

yaroslav9728

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2020
Messages
37
Reaction score
2
Location
Toronto, СA
Ok, generally, what can you say about hohner Pirola iii accordions. Are they good quality or not and may I exchange on another accordion at accordion store?
 

Gonk

Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
34
Reaction score
6
Location
Maine, USA
Yes, they're good quality. Instruments of that age (1950s) often need some work to make them more airtight. Exchange policy is up to the store.
 

Similar threads

Top