Age related syndrome

[Happy girl]

I hear, relish & take in the excellent advice administered by our experienced members to enhance & promote better playing with good habits.

I understated, in theory, the process & the time it takes to reach a certain level of competence; my question is this:

How does this recommendation equate to people senior in years who are late starters to music & the instrument? Does one set of rules apply to all?

Experienced players have probably gone through the mill of endeavour as youngsters in order to reach their pinnacle of expertise & success, but, If YOU were starting over from scratch at say 70 years old, (with waning energy which this age group so freely provides), would you still advocate this strict mandate of practice?

My dilemma is this: Do I really need to practice to the letter, self-satisfied that all criteria are met, thus reiterating my practice is solid & to the letter as advised?


Of course, the answer lies only with me, I cannot, it seems have it both ways. Good habits mean constant dedication for years, the alternative is to do what I can & neglect a lot of the philosophy so generously supplied by the expert members.

I think there must be a happy medium for us ‘not so young ‘uns’! Although it goes against the grain for me personally to ‘relax the rules’ so to speak, I feel the need to give myself permission to accept that expert advice is not always applicable to every age group. :hb

 

[debra]

I don't want to sound harsh and do not wish to offend anyone with my advice here. That said...

A bit of standard practice using study books and a good teacher is highly recommended. Independent of age you need to learn the basics in order to produce any acceptable results later (not much later). That holds for any type of skill, not just learning a musical instrument. But you can start skipping the boring exercises sooner and start learning the songs you want because ultimately you should not be aiming at reaching a level of proficiency that can only be attained by starting young. You certainly will be able to have fun entertaining yourself and even many others.

I strongly advise to not make the mistake I have seen others make and that is to practice, practice, practice and then think your level will be acceptable to join a band or orchestra with players who started young and are having fun playing together at a level that you may (mistakenly) think you can also reach. The training, especially in rhythm, that the others went through is almost impossible to reach when you start later in life. You would end up frustrating yourself and frustrating the others even more. I have experienced this happen over and over, and you might not even be aware how you are frustrating the others. So just have fun with your music. There are many ways in which you can enjoy the accordion for your own and for other people's entertainment, without trying to blend in with people who started early in life.

Really, sorry if this sounds offensive, but the truth often does. You really cannot make up for 70 years of missed skill development, but you can have a lot of fun playing nonetheless.

 

[george garside]

. You really cannot make up for 70 years of missed skill development, but you can have a lot of fun playing nonetheless.

Absolutely spot on Paul!. I have provided tuition for many people in their 60s who are starting from scratch and many of ho are non readers. Taking up an instrument is often a retirement thing. Most of my older students just ant to be able to play for their on enjoyment and haave no wish to spend years , which they may not have, on graded tuition.

I therefore tailor make the lessons according to existing skills, if any, and the sort of music they would like to to play .I also tell them there is no point in playing if they are not enjoying it. Most have achieved their usually realistic goals and that is what matters . Some are just happy but crappy and others surprisingly good,

george

 

[JerryPH]

Sad facts of life... the older you get, the slower things can get pushed in to our heads. Also, fingers get brittle, arthritis sets in further inhibiting being able to play the more complex passages.

Each person is different and each person needs to explore their own limitations and with time and practice, just how far you can push those limitations.

Now, the ultimate challenge would be starting from scratch at an age like (let's say) 70 years old. No, there is just no way, not enough time and all the wrong circumstances and mental/physical reasons you won't "keep up" with the younger players, however, if you set your sights right, you are in this for yourself, not for others, and there is absolutely NO reason to not do this.

Paul's advice of learning to read music and taking regular lessons from a live teacher are all great suggestions and I highly recommend them too. There is NO faster way to learn music, NO faster way to get to a level of proficiency and NO faster way to save time so you can learn in a way that will let you get to a level where you want to get to. Being realistic with your goals is also important. No, you are not going to be Art Van Damme starting at 70, but there is absolutely no reason why you cannot have a tremendous amount of fun and enjoy music for as long as you are physically able to hold that accordion.

Remember, music is not about getting to a destination, it is all about the journey.

 

[jozz]

the alternative is to do what I can & neglect a lot of the philosophy so generously supplied by the expert members.

I dont see whats wrong with this? Its your hobby. Just sit on the bar instead of raising it...dont let it become tedious.

More often then not I will try to perfect a piece of music, in the end accept that Im not worldclass, then re-arrange it so that it still sounds OK, making everybody happy, but with less of the virtuoso skills needed.

{}

 

[JerryPH]

Wow, so many posts before I could complete mine... lol

For me... bottom line... ask yourself the question "am I having fun?" If the answer is yes... keep doing it for as long as you are physically able. The day its not fun anymore, then you stop. Until that day, play with emotion, feeling and experience joy that only comes from playing our chosen instrument!

 

[Geronimo]

How does this recommendation equate to people senior in years who are late starters to music & the instrument? Does one set of rules apply to all?

Does it ever?

When you are young, one rationale that applies to most endeavors is better is better. Any skill that you acquire will pay back your investment eventually in some manner, so when improving skills for the skills you are in it for the long haul for yourself.

At an older age, the question of what you are going to get out of it yet is more pressing. Taking up the instrument at 70 may mean that you are still fighting your deteriorating physique at 90 trying to get stuff to sound the way you imagine it should when people the same age as you havent taken up useless stuff like that and have already managed to get their burial under wraps 15 years ago.

What I mean to say is, the rewards you are working for are different and more personal, so its more of your own judgment what may and what may not be worth it to you in the long run when the actual state of your own long run is less predictable than at young years.

 

[maugein96]

Very sound advice indeed Paul and George.

I was still possessed enough of youthful arrogance at the age of 31 to think I could teach myself French musette on a CBA without any professional tuition, based on the fact that I had experience of playing other instruments since I was a child. The theory was that I could transpose all the musical skills I already had to the accordion in a few months. However, I soon discovered my reasoning was dreadfully wrong, and the accordion is not an instrument where proficiency comes quickly. The consequences of that are that over a period of 33 years I have repeatedly given up playing due to the frustration of not being able to play to the standard I was expecting. At the age of 64 the penny has finally dropped, and if the internet with forums like this one had been around when I first started out I would have given up playing a lot sooner than I did.

Every time I decided to "start again from scratch" it got harder and harder to the point where at age 64 I am not really able to progress any further. It's not that I don't want to learn, it just seems that my capability to do so is no longer there.

To illustrate the point I also gave up playing the guitar for about 25 years, largely due to work and family commitments. I decided to start playing again about 10 years ago, and within a few months I was back in the groove. The big difference was that I had learned the guitar as a child, and everything seemed to come back to me naturally.

A lot of players start later than I did and they obviously get enjoyment out of what they do. Providing they do not set their sights as high as I did then there is no reason why they cannot get a lot of fun and enjoyment out of their new pastime.

 

[debra]

...
I was still possessed enough of youthful arrogance at the age of 31 to think I could teach myself French musette on a CBA without any professional tuition, based on the fact that I had experience of playing other instruments since I was a child. The theory was that I could transpose all the musical skills I already had to the accordion in a few months. ...

Sadly this transposition of the musical skills from one instrument to another is rather limited.
Reading sheet music is of course a reusable skill, and hand and finger motor skills can be reused as well. But anything else...
Even going from a piano to a PA requires unlearning that pressing harder on the keys changes the volume and learning to use the bellows (not to speak of the bass system).
When I wanted to learn to play the accordina (you know, that melodica-like button wind instrument) I knew I wasnt going to just wing it when it came to breathing. I found a teacher for recorder (the wind instrument, not tape recorder) who was willing to teach me to use a wind instrument without me having to actually use a recorder. The accordina was fine. (It may have helped that she was learning to play the accordion.) One thing I found out is that besides my breathing technique being completely wrong I could not learn what is called circular breathing (breathing in through your nose while at the same time using the air that is already in your mouth to continue blowing. I could also not close off my nose so I was losing air through the nose while blowing through my mouth. (Now I know why I always had trouble trying to blow up a balloon.) I learned a lot that I would never have figured out by myself, and I discovered that some of the muscle control needed to do the breathing and blowing properly I could no longer learn properly at the later age.

So yes, even when you know music and a different instrument it can be a challenge to become any good on a new instrument.

 

[Geronimo]

One thing I found out is that besides my breathing technique being completely wrong I could not learn what is called circular breathing (breathing in through your nose while at the same time using the air that is already in your mouth to continue blowing.

Id guess that air use of an accordina is large enough that circular breathing is of limited use. I think oboe as an instrument with close to highest pressure and lowest airflow is the one where circular breathing has become customary enough that its a skill professionals are expected to have.

 

[oldchemist]

I took up PA aged around 64 (me, not the box) as a retirement project. I started with a tutorial book and soon got stuck so I enrolled with a teacher. Definitely a good move. Progress can seem slow but when you have been at it for a few years, think back to how you were doing early on and you will almost certainly see an improvement. I play with a group of similar vintage and we are very fortunate in having help from a pianist who comes up with some lovely harmonies which really lift the music without adding greatly to the difficulty. We play for enjoyment, not striving for technical excellence.

 

[donn]

Interesting, I've been playing wind instruments for many decades and have never felt I needed circular breathing. I will make a note to steer clear of the accordina.

I am inclined to believe that my early background in music has a lot to what I can do today. I missed the childhood music boat, but did get into music performance as a young adult, maybe just in time for some musical abilities and too late for others. But at worst ... who can't hum a tune? Everyone has been exposed to enough music that we have the basics.

"Do what's fun" is good advice, but maybe not great advice - the problem is, it's fun to do better, so the question may be how to do enough better, that it's fun. For me, indeed it's the most fun when I can hear myself improving. So it's a good thing I'm a poor player, as that leaves me lots of room for improvement, but I will say the early years (yes) were not so much fun, as I suppose I was so adrift that I couldn't even reliably work towards improvement.

 

[StargazerTony]

Well, let's see. If I accept the theory that it takes 10,000 hours to become proficient in something, and if I practice for 1 hour every day, it will take me over 27 years. I'm 70 now so yeah, that's doable. Started about a year ago when I was 69. I think that at 97, the big show would be people watching me just to see if I can strap the beast on without falling over.

I play the accordion not because I will become great with it, or mediocre, or even mildly entertaining. Don't care. I play simply because I enjoy it. I need no other reason

 

[Happy girl]

Yes. Recent posts from ‘late comers’ are very reassuring, especially as there has been so much discussion recently relating to the importance of technical skills, which could, to the uninitiated, become a little intense.

I speak only for myself of course; I am pleased to read that some older members are happy to go with the flow, relax & enjoy their abilities in their own special way.

 

[Geronimo]

I took up PA aged around 64 (me, not the box) as a retirement project. I started with a tutorial book and soon got stuck so I enrolled with a teacher. Definitely a good move.

If you postpone things until retirement and then dont have the money to do them effectively, your long-term work-life balance needs balancing. I try not to postpone living. I still end up postponing far too much.

 

[george garside]

I have provided tuition for many 60 plus would be players most with absolutely no instrumental experience and no desire to undertake a legthy graded course for which they might not have time! many are 'non readers' it being just a hoped for hobby as a retirement thing !

I spend some time exploring the individual aims which vary but generally are a desire to play folk/trad or ''jolly popular'' tunes , pub sing along tunes etc etc.

In consultation with the 'student' I then devise a programme that will hopefully, and usually does, enable them to reach their self set target and charge for each lesson on a one off basis so they can spread them to suite their pocket and time. I also make it clear from the start that they can dump me when they feel they are where they want to be.

Some last a few months , others a couple of years but most finish up where they want to be without it becoming a chore that has to be done.

For the 60 plus learner the normal ''classical/exams /grades etc route is far to long winded and ? expensive!

george

 

[Geronimo]

Some last a few months , others a couple of years but most finish up where they want to be without it becoming a chore that has to be done.

I rarely end up anywhere close where I wanted to be. I started accordion in order to replace fingerstyle guitar as accompaniment because I exchanged my tenor voice for alto and guitar wasnt able to keep up in volume. So I invested 70EUR into some arbitrary 96-bass piano accordion from Ebay. Things went uphill from there.

Note that I still cannot really be said to be playing fingerstyle accordion as accompaniment.

 

[donn]

If you postpone things until retirement and then dont have the money to do them effectively, your long-term work-life balance needs balancing. I try not to postpone living. I still end up postponing far too much.

The thing I remember postponing was, as a young person in the 70s I resolved to postpone the use of psychedelic drugs until my 60s, on the theory then propagated by sensationalist media and repressive government that they might cause irreversible chromosomal damage. That turned out to be baloney, so I learned not to postpone things.

Seriously though, while there might be something to be said for abolishing work and thus retirement, for those who have gone that route and are lucky enough to be able to throw off the yoke, its terrific to see them taking up music - because it makes such active use of the brain cells, but also because it brings music out of the realm of professionally recorded consumer content and into the realm of things we do ourselves.

Which touches on the goals for the amateur musician - for absolutely sure all is lost if it isnt a source of enjoyment, but ideally it isnt a solitary pursuit, right? And to that end, the standard for enjoyment isnt entirely up to us, we ought to aspire to be enjoyable to others. I guess thats obvious, but one never knows!

 

[TW]

George,

Some are just happy but crappy

youve been listening to me again.........!

 

[Geronimo]

The thing I remember postponing was, as a young person in the 70s I resolved to postpone the use of psychedelic drugs until my 60s, on the theory then propagated by sensationalist media and repressive government that they might cause irreversible chromosomal damage. That turned out to be baloney, so I learned not to postpone things.

Well, its too late now. Looking at your government, you wouldnt recognize the difference of taking psychedelic drugs anymore.