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Which free bass system?

Interesting kerfluffle on a subject of interest in an accordion forum.

The point of the orignal question was which system is suited for


Given that Ms. R probably intends to play this on her compact Roland -which would allow her to use many schemes, none of which match the range (or heft) of the Steinway minus steamer trunk models of the mega accordions discussed above- the real issues at hand are; applicablilty, ease of learning, and most likely to enhance her existing skill set.
Good point! On a Roland with a PA treble keyboard, a C-system free bass would be quite intuitive for this immediate need.
For whatever musical demands might come up in the future, a chromatic free bass is a proven good choice. It’s such a logical layout, which is why it’s also often a preferred choice for the treble keyboard too. I don’t believe anyone has ever made a custom quint treble keyboard.
 
I don’t believe anyone has ever made a custom quint treble keyboard.

Now there's a thought... :unsure: I've often considered learning to play the Hayden Duet Concertina, it's left and right hand keyboard design is fundamentally based on fifths. Thing is, there's always something to marvel at; always something fresh, new and fascinating, while the world keeps on spinning round and round like the circle of fifths.

Here a little tune for you Ed, on the Array mbira. Enjoy!

 
Given that Ms. R probably intends to play this on her compact Roland -which would allow her to use many schemes, none of which match the range (or heft) of the Steinway minus steamer trunk models of the mega accordions discussed above- the real issues at hand are; applicablilty, ease of learning, and most likely to enhance her existing skill set.

That is true, but as I didn't know anything about free bass I've found it a very useful & instructive discussion!

" her existing skill set "

yes, and that is partly in another incarnation she
is a Bass player, and so i expect her left hand is
always going to have an affinity to how a bass
player thinks and moves and anticipates

This is very true. I play double bass in folk, jazz and worship settings, but it tends to be much the same thing - root & 5 notes, with little runs at the end of sections. When I play accordion, it tends to be root-chord, or when the chords are spread too widely, I swap to single bass notes using the root and third bass rows.

Good point! On a Roland with a PA treble keyboard, a C-system free bass would be quite intuitive for this immediate need.
For whatever musical demands might come up in the future, a chromatic free bass is a proven good choice. It’s such a logical layout, which is why it’s also often a preferred choice for the treble keyboard too. I don’t believe anyone has ever made a custom quint treble keyboard.

I've been looking at the diagrams some more, and I like that Quint extends the layout of the Stradella bass notes. The thirds layouts are a new scheme to learn, and I think I would like that more if the whole button board changed, rather than have the bottom two rows staying in the stradella layout. Anyway, I shall be trying Quint today and I'll report back!
 
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Now there's a thought... :unsure: I've often considered learning to play the Hayden Duet Concertina, it's left and right hand keyboard design is fundamentally based on fifths. Thing is, there's always something to marvel at; always something fresh, new and fascinating, while the world keeps on spinning round and round like the circle of fifths.

Here a little tune for you Ed, on the Array mbira. Enjoy!


Is the Array system in 5th?
 
Hey Ed, here's a short video I discovered...



Y'know Ed, aparently the human body can get by with one lung, but ideally we need two lungs to breathe effectively. Likewise, with music, there are only two fundamental and truly 'circular' patterns; the chromatic circle and the circle of fifths. Now, of course, we can manage to create melody and harmony with either system alone, but I really think it is better when we can appreciate both the chromatic circle and the circle of fifths together.

All the best.​
 
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Hey Ed, here's a short video I discovered...



Y'know Ed, aparently the human body can get by with one lung, but ideally we need two lungs to breathe effectively. Likewise, with music, there are only two fundamental and truly 'circular' patterns; the chromatic circle and the circle of fifths. Now, of course, we can manage to create melody and harmony with either system alone, but I really think it is better when we can appreciate both the chromatic circle and the circle of fifths together.

All the best.​

I do not follow your logic! Per your example, are not the right and left lungs essentially mirror opposites?
That description might apply to a C-system CBA with C-system free bass, with both keyboards ascending in pitch from top to bottom.
The B-system bayan is more conceptually akin to a piano, the bass side ascends in pitch from bottom to top, as does the treble side — a la one continuous keyboard. That’s one reason why I stuck with B-system when I got hold of a Roland. This even though I had previously played a PA with C-system converter free bsss.
Although, it doesn’t seem to make much difference. Both systems are immediately easy to grasp, maybe even more easy to do so than a piano keyboard with the uneven progression of pitch across the white and black keys.
Over the centuries and decades, other keyboard systems have been introduced. On piano, and some accordions, for example, there was the Janko keyboard. It seems logical too. But it didn’t get a foothold. Neither did any of the other keyboards except the chromatic.
What is so impressive about the CBA keyboards is that they have taken root in two continents. There even seem to be more than a couple accordion manufacturers now turning them out in Europe and Russia.
There are many advantages to a 3-row chromatic keyboard — especially with extra alternate rows. If you haven’t done so already, give one a serious try.
 
I do not follow your logic! Per your example, are not the right and left lungs essentially mirror opposites?
Dear Ed, my symbolic language was not about physiology; it was not about the shape of the lungs. Rather, it was to convey the essential 'breath' of music; both its harmony and melody, whose building blocks, the sequences that lie at the heart of all composition, are indeed contained within the chromatic circle and the circle of fifths. To fail to appreciate the importance of both elements is to breathe with only one lung, and that is why it is so deeply saddening to find musicians who love only one and attack the other. This is why I defend the system of fifths, but do not attack the chromatic system, for both are essential. That's why I love the traditional accordion more than any other musical instrument, it has both these elements engrained to its core.

 
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Your metaphor doesn’t work? First, yes a healthy person has two lungs. But, to apply use the term ‘pattern’ from your metaphor, or ‘system’ from our accordion world, the ‘pattern’ or ‘system’ of the left lung is essentially a near exact mirror opposite of the right lung. As I tried to state, albeit in somewhat different words, metaphor would more or less apply to a C-system chromatic button accordion (CBA) with a C-system free bass.
It sort of carries over to a B-system bayan with free bass too. Except on a bayan, the pitches on the pitches flow from low to high on both keyboards more like they do on a piano. That is, it’s almost like one continuous keyboard.
Of course, people have playing a piano, organ, harpsichord, clavichord, and other instruments with what we now refer to as a ‘piano keyboard’ for centuries. Composers and players have found wonderful ways on those keyboards to have “the melody and harmony…work together” as you put it.
Changing the subject slightly, perhaps my main beef with the Stradella bass and fixed chord voicing ‘system’ is that it is nigh but impossible to have harmonic movement of the inner voices.
There are great players who get great tonal colors by combining chords on a Stradella bass. But the dimension of inner harmonic movement is near impossible to have without a free bass.
That realization came to me ‘in spades’ when practicing a transcription of a Bill Evans tune on free bass. Evans is hardly the only jazz pianist to create harmonic movement with his left hand comping patterns. But imo, his mastery of doing so was JS Bach-like.
Note, also, the term “patterns” apply to the structure of the composition, or in Evans’ case, improvisation.
Finally, for learning the skill of moving inner voicings, and bass lines, practicing Bach harmonized chorales several times a week is probably a good habit to cultivate. Next, then apply what Bach did with harmonic movement to harmonizing standards from The Real Book.
Of course you need a free bass, and this is as doable and straightforward on either a C-system or B-system free bass as on a piano keyboard. I suspect it may also be doable on a quint, but not as straightforward, and maybe more difficult.
 
@EdBouchard thanks for sharing your thoughts about jazz harmonisation. I can see why you could be inspired to find 'another way' to harmonise like Barry Harris, rather than simply following the path beaten by accordionists like Van Damme, Marocco, Emblow, Zanchini etc. It's fun to be different, I get it. The subtle, colourful inner voicings that the legendary pianist utilises are very beautiful. If I were inspired by such chordal accompaniment with moving inner voicings, as you are, then I would probably be thinking along the lines of inverse B system (Bayan) bass too, as there is a similarly to the flow of the piano (and the written score) that seems intuitive and efficient.

I guess where you and I differ is that my particular motivation would have little to do with Jazz music. I am more interested in discovering different ways to harmonise in folk music, compose new music inspired by folklore and play early keyboard music from the British Isles. To me, it seems like a no brainer to tackle folk, baroque and my style of composition with the Quint free bass system because it eats up the diatonic scales and medieval modes for breakfast. Long flowing left hand passages, arpeggios, modulation, frequently used 'intervals' etc are accomplished with minimal fuss and often next to no hand movement... even 'jumps' of two octaves or more! For the music I enjoy, Ed, it is with the greatest of respect I say, I would not want to follow you into the minor thirds layouts. I'm sticking with Quint.

By the way, apologies @Rosie C for taking up so much of your thread! Thanks for your patience.
 
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I’m not a fan of the quint system. Of the five free bass systems I’ve tried over the decades, quint, Khuel, Moschino, Geraci, and CBA, I much prefer a CBA free bass, either C-system or B-system.
Got interested in free bass a long time ago. Sometime in the mid-1960s, I got a copy of the Palmer Hughes book with arrangements of Bach compositions for Stradella — including a Prelude and Fugue.
[,,,]
In sum, of the 5 free bass systems I’ve played, I strongly prefer either a C- or B-system CBA in both hands. They are mirror images of one another.
CBA keyboards have nearly 4.5 octaves in each hand with free bass. Essentially it’s the same range as a piano. Baroque music is more acoustically suitable for freebass accordion than is the modern piano. It’s great for piano too. But
The other systems like Khuel and Moschino okay. But it’s hard enough to find a free bass accordion. As well as a logical keyboard proven to fit the fingers for a whole lot of music, CBA free bass accordions are still being made. And the current instruments all sound quite wonderful.
It seems like much of your experience is not as much drawn from the fingering complications as much as from the sound of the various bass systems. The B/C system free basses tend to have long tapered (and linearly arranged) reedblocks which allows to have wind paths tapering along with the pitch. The quint system seems worst in that regard: the easy mechanics may well be bought by a reed plate arrangement that does not allow for an acoustic construction tracking the pitch closely.

So while it seems like a weird criterion judging the various systems (and makes little enough sense on an electronic instrument), the mechanics of the implementations, particularly when the systems are rare enough to not have seen significant evolution, may indeed be something not to be dismissed lightly.

Interestingly, my own instrument (C system in treble and MIII) appears to embrace a "rough tone" on the bass side: as opposed to the treble side, the reeds are mounted on leather gaskets, making for a more piercing tone quality. That allows a wide range of registrations to actually work with tolerable transparency. Indeed, when I want a punchy tone (or avoid fast reregistering), I sometimes revert to LM in the left rather than the right hand (where the L reed is kept in more mellow confinements).
 
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Interesting kerfluffle on a subject of interest in an accordion forum.

The point of the orignal question was which system is suited for


Given that Ms. R probably intends to play this on her compact Roland -which would allow her to use many schemes, none of which match the range (or heft) of the Steinway minus steamer trunk models of the mega accordions discussed above- the real issues at hand are; applicablilty, ease of learning, and most likely to enhance her existing skill set.
Henry D, just saw your excellent summation today. Yes, “real issue” certainly include “applicability, ease of learning, and [what is] most likely to enhance…existing skill”. Perhaps with a PA treble, C-system free bass is more intuitive at first. This since the direction of pitch rise and fall are parallel between right snd left keyboard. Or should we say between ‘treble and bass keyboards’. More anon.
 
[,,,]

It seems like much of your experience is not as much drawn from the fingering complications as much as from the sound of the various bass systems. The B/C system free basses tend to have long tapered (and linearly arranged) reedblocks which allows to have wind paths tapering along with the pitch. The quint system seems worst in that regard: the easy mechanics may well be bought by a reed plate arrangement that does not allow for an acoustic construction tracking the pitch closely.

So while it seems like a weird criterion judging the various systems (and makes little enough sense on an electronic instrument), the mechanics of the implementations, particularly when the systems are rare enough to not have seen significant evolution, may indeed be something not to be dismissed lightly.

Interestingly, my own instrument (C system in treble and MIII) appears to embrace a "rough tone" on the bass side: as opposed to the treble side, the reeds are mounted on leather gaskets, making for a more piercing tone quality. That allows a wide range of registrations to actually work with tolerable transparency. Indeed, when I want a punchy tone (or avoid fast reregistering), I sometimes revert to LM in the left rather than the right hand (where the L reed is kept in more mellow confinements).
Dak, I have found the 3-row chromatic, either C- or B- has a number of fingering advantages too, even over a PA keyboard in some ways. At least it is true with alternate rows for ergonomic fingering — in all keys.
Closed voiced triads and 7th chords, in all inversions, seem to fall right under the fingers.
Since about 2006, I had been playing a specially made Castsgnari PA, with C-system free bass. The Castagnari has a great sound, on both keyboards. I liked the C-system free bass too.
I had to switch to CBA from PA on the treble side in October 2023 when osteoarthritis finally took away use of my thumbs for legato scales and arpeggios. The experience has made me wish I’d started on CBA in both hands.
A few years ago, a banjo player in a group I had played with knew about a bayan for sale, with free bass. He also played double bass and had played accordion too. The seller was a Russian immigrant. It was made in Tula, had a very nice sound to my ears. Of course it was B-system both hands.
I probably would have stayed with the C-system, but I needed a CBA, and this one was affordable to me at the time
The PA made by Castagnari with the great sound, and a C-system converter free bass. I gave to a musician friend. He been making huge progress.
More on his playing maybe in another post. He brings a wealth of musical knowledge to the table, but accordion is hardly his major instrument. Still he already does more with the instrument than I ever did.
I was able to obtain a Roland Fr4xb too. That was fortunate, since the Tula-made bayan always seemed to need to need repairs.
I eventually sold it (at a slight loss) to a young serious player who wanted to learn to repair accordions. Not sure how she’s doing.
At any rate, in addition to closed voicings, even with just 4 fingers, it’s fairly easy to play 10th, even 12ths on a 3-row chromatic keyboard, especially with alternate rows for fingering.
For what jazz pianists call shell voicings, and 3-note open chords, the 3-row chromatic keyboard is a dream on a CBA keyboard.
Dak might be right that “long tapered (and linearly arranged) reedblocks…allows tapering along with the pitch”. Yet, I did see a video recently of Dallas Vietty playing his PA with a Moschino free bass. Found it to have a far better tone in both treble and bass than the accordion I purchased from Mario M many decades ago. Wonder when Dallas’s instrument was made?
My impression, albeit from limited experience, is that free bass accordions really do sound better when they were made after Lips and Ellegaard worked with the manufacturers to improve the internal acoustics. My guess is that that was around 2000.
So the instrument is still evolving. That happened with pianos too. JS Bach didn’t care for the fortepiano when it was introduced about 1700. He wrote all his keyboard compositions for organ, harpsichord, and clavichord.
 
I intend to chime in on this discussion in more detail soon because I am about to take delivery of a pure free bass C-Griff from Thierry Benetoux with the bass arranged low notes towards the floor, B-griff style. I also have strong opinions about the perfection of either B or C systems for Barry Harris 6thDim voice movement, which I’ve shared here before.

But having played both low-at-top and low-towards-floor configurations (my profile pic is me playing my Geuns Hybrid Bando with mirrored C), I’m convinced that the perceived advantages of the mirrored C system are illusory.

We build a map of our ‘playing field’ in our minds that our hands follow. That map is generally solidified by the right hand for most CBA players. With low-towards-floor, the left hand is still playing the same map, just as on piano. Having the left mirror the right is akin to having to learn to read both “forwards” and “sdrawkcab”. 🤯
Just imagine playing a piano that went higher to the right from Middle C, and then had a C, 3 octaves lower immediately to it’s left that proceeded higher as you went to the left. That’s essentially what mirrored does. Sure you get to use the same fingerings with both hands, but essentially on 2 completely unrelated instruments, simultaneously.

In preparation for receiving my Benetoux, I’ve been playing a melody side MIDI CBA controller, piano style. Other than the poor ergonomics, its been marvelous, and within days I found myself being able to unite the voicings of my 2 hands far far better than I ever did with mirrored.

I can’t express how excited I am in anticipation of my C ‘bayan’.

My only regret is that I didn’t go B-griff from the git-go becaus I would have had my choice of instruments rather than having to go custom made.

And no MIDI accordion offers C griff free bass with low notes toward the floor.
 

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Free bass is great for traditional church music since it allows for more nuanced bass lines and counterpoint. For a beginner, the B system (Bayan style) might feel more intuitive if you're used to Stradella’s layout, but the C system (Converter) is more common in Western Europe. Try whichever feels more natural stick with that. Since you’re already comfortable with folk tunes, free bass will give you more flexibility for carols. Start simple: practice scales and basic harmonies first.
 
Free bass is great for traditional church music since it allows for more nuanced bass lines and counterpoint. For a beginner, the B system (Bayan style) might feel more intuitive if you're used to Stradella’s layout, but the C system (Converter) is more common in Western Europe. Try whichever feels more natural stick with that. Since you’re already comfortable with folk tunes, free bass will give you more flexibility for carols. Start simple: practice scales and basic harmonies first.
I practice hymns of free bass to learn how to harmonize standards from the Real Book, at least 2-3 times a week.
Years ago, actually my first gig out of college, I got hired to play daily services for a multi denominational National Council of Churches group of ministers that held daily services. This on a Stradella, hitting switches to play the bass lines. It was a Methodist hymnal service one day, Presbyterian hymnal the next, etc., etc.
These days, on the B-system CBA with free bass, i found a pdf of the Bach Riemenschneider 371 Harmonized Chorales. The four part harmonies generally layout with bass and tenor parts in the left hand, alto and tenor in the right.
Similarly, the pianist Harry Likas has recently published literally 1200+ arrangements of standards — like All of Me — in what he dubs “2+2 arrangements”. The left hand plays shell voicings — usually root and 3rd or root and 7th. The right plays the melody and one other note in the chord.
Many of those arrangements work wonderfully for free bass too.
 
I practice hymns of free bass to learn how to harmonize standards from the Real Book, at least 2-3 times a week.
Years ago, actually my first gig out of college, I got hired to play daily services for a multi denominational National Council of Churches group of ministers that held daily services. This on a Stradella, hitting switches to play the bass lines. It was a Methodist hymnal service one day, Presbyterian hymnal the next, etc., etc.
These days, on the B-system CBA with free bass, i found a pdf of the Bach Riemenschneider 371 Harmonized Chorales. The four part harmonies generally layout with bass and tenor parts in the left hand, alto and tenor in the right.
Similarly, the pianist Harry Likas has recently published literally 1200+ arrangements of standards — like All of Me — in what he dubs “2+2 arrangements”. The left hand plays shell voicings — usually root and 3rd or root and 7th. The right plays the melody and one other note in the chord.
Many of those arrangements work wonderfully for free bass too.
Thank you Ed! Do you have a source you can share for people interested in seeing the arrangements from Mr. Likas?
 
Thank you Ed! Do you have a source you can share for people interested in seeing the arrangements from Mr. Likas?
Harry Likas often, 2-3 times a week, posts arrangements on Facebook. He’s also on Partreon, where you can either purchase the whole collection or sign up for a small monthly fee. I did the latter, before purchasing the whole collection was an option. Then there were only a few hundred arrangements. https://www.patreon.com/HarryLikas?utm_campaign=creatorshare_fan
 
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