Question about Elsbeth Moser's "The Chromatic Button Accordion C-Keyboard System: A Systematic Approach"

[OuijaBoard]

Sorry for the thread drift, a couple more who I think play both diato and CBA.


www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1009987753821138&id=100044297686068&

 

[Walker]

I have a bit of an opinion there... that it would depend greatly on the age of the person and their goals. A young player will just as eagerly devour any style of FB system (because ignorance is bliss... lol). When I was in the conservatory in Toronto, it was a novel sight to see a CBA (perhaps 4 or so at the time?), indeed of the perhaps 200-250 accordion students, it was rare to see anything other than a Gola and even fewer than CBA or any of the 3 Giulietti PAs, was me all alone with my monster Morino PA, I was in a group of ONE there... lol

Where the differences may start to mostly show is in the last 10 percent at the highest level of elite players, there we can see more of a potential difference, short of that it really is an "anything one can do, another can do too".

That's a fair assessment Jerry.

I'd say, for the average accordionist who wants to learn to play free bass as a hobby - that's simply a massive triumph because it's a great endeavour, regardless how far they get with it. Now, I don't buy what @saundersbp has suggested, that Quint (5ths) system is more difficult and less smooth than minor 3rds to perform with (when comparing accordionists of similar ability and training), though I respect his right to share his opinion. In fact, there will be lots of music where the movements and positions on Quint will be easier and with much less travel than on any minor 3rds system. However, I also accept that there will be other music where minor 3rd systems will allow more comfortable hand movements and positions. To me it's swings and roundabouts.

When it comes to the elite accordionists, there are brilliant musicians playing every system, but I have to say it is the bayanist (reverse B system free bass) that often outshines all the others in international competition, from what I have seen. I think it's because they have cultures that really support the highest level study of the instrument in Eastern Europe, Russia, China, more than accordionists do in Western Europe and North America. However, winning competitions isn't that important in the grand scheme of things and I'd still say playing good, tasteful music matters more.

Now, if I were pushed to name names - the one accordion player who has the most formidable left hand technique of all... on his best day I have yet to hear anyone who tops Grayson Masefield.​

 

[saundersbp]

Now, I don't buy what @saundersbp has suggested, that Quint (5ths) system is more difficult and less smooth than minor 3rds to perform with (when comparing accordionists of similar ability and training), though I respect his right to share his opinion.

The suggestion is simply based on observing a number of adult hobby accordionists (like me) valiantly struggling with the 5ths system versus watching the speed of progress on similar adults with a chromatic bass system. I appreciate that this is not a scientific evaluation, but still I don't envy them the extra time, sweat and tears!

However, winning competitions isn't that important in the grand scheme of things and I'd still say playing good, tasteful music matters more.

Now, if I were pushed to name names - the one accordion player who has the most formidable left hand technique of all.

I had a listen to the Passacaglia with interest as its a piece I have played since my teens on the organ. Ten out of ten for technique and certainly something to impress the judges in a competition to attempt it on an accordion. Good tasteful music making matters more though as you say - line, shape, depth and flow - and music that is idiomatic to the instrument its played on. That's the problem here. If you are going to use a wind instrument, then that particular piece of Bach is conceived for one with endless breath where the phrase isn't punctuated by the need to noticeably grab air out of technical necessity rather than as a component in the language of musical meaning.
Then there is all that lovely two stave Bach stuff that we don't hear half as much but comes to life on the accordion. Maybe boy virtuoso accordion players are more inclined to technical stunts than the girls. Ultimately I reckon most of us are drawn to the sort of music making where emotion is at the core, rather than novelty or wow factor. This lady and her choice of music is sublime.

 

[Walker]

The suggestion is simply based on observing a number of adult hobby accordionists (like me) valiantly struggling with the 5ths system versus watching the speed of progress on similar adults with a chromatic bass system. I appreciate that this is not a scientific evaluation, but still I don't envy them the extra time, sweat and tears!

Y'know, I was out strimming (some might say gouging) the endless fields that masquerade as my garden, with a petrol powered 'scythe' and I got to pondering important stuff - mainly imagining what would it be like to have a zero-turn ride-on mower instead of a crummy strimmer! Eventually the constant coarse buzz of the engine led me to think... are minor 3rd (C system, B system etc) modes easier to play in than 5th modes, like Stradella bass or Quint? Now, to be fair to you Ben, I think yes, there could be times when this happens. Say a person takes up the accordion to primarily learn free bass and is trying to study both Stradella bass (a 5th system) at the same time as free bass (usually minor 3rds) - I think there may well be times where it's easier to play music with a well crafted free bass line than a Stradella bass/chord vamp or bass run.

However, my experience with the accordion has been slightly different to the possible scenario above, as I decided to take up free bass after playing Stradella for many years. In my situation I wanted to build upon what I already knew, rather than learn a new system from scratch. That's why I chose Quint (5ths) over minor 3rds. I remember the time I first discovered there was a free bass system that was closely related to Stradella bass and I was delighted! However, I am aware that it's not the mainstream option at this time, apart from pockets of Quint interest in Italy, America and New Zealand etc. Though it's not at the height of its powers any more (this ain't USA circa 1975) I'm happy to keep going with it as I think it works well for me. In time I'd like to add a chromatic free bass accordion too, but that will have to wait. I think Quint PA and Chromatic button converters are fundamentally 'different' enough to be worth trying to learn both and hopefully gain the best of both worlds.​

I had a listen to the Passacaglia with interest as its a piece I have played since my teens on the organ. Ten out of ten for technique and certainly something to impress the judges in a competition to attempt it on an accordion. Good tasteful music making matters more though as you say - line, shape, depth and flow - and music that is idiomatic to the instrument its played on. That's the problem here. If you are going to use a wind instrument, then that particular piece of Bach is conceived for one with endless breath where the phrase isn't punctuated by the need to noticeably grab air out of technical necessity rather than as a component in the language of musical meaning.
Then there is all that lovely two stave Bach stuff that we don't hear half as much but comes to life on the accordion. Maybe boy virtuoso accordion players are more inclined to technical stunts than the girls. Ultimately I reckon most of us are drawn to the sort of music making where emotion is at the core, rather than novelty or wow factor. This lady and her choice of music is sublime.

I agree these very grand organ works aren't really necessary - I was mainly demonstrating that some accordions do go down as far as low C1. Grayson Masefield is a terrific accordionist though.

Thanks for sharing the Bach recording by Joerger - marvellous music. We need more of this type of music!

By the way, thanks for sharing your Scarlatti recording on an earlier post, it was great playing and very nice music! I think I rather like sonata K9 also...

 

[JerryPH]

Wow, you do a lot of heavy thinking while mowing the lawn... lol

 

[saundersbp]

Y'know, I was out strimming (some might say gouging) the endless fields that masquerade as my garden, with a petrol powered 'scythe' and I got to pondering important stuff - mainly imagining what would it be like to have a zero-turn ride-on mower instead of a crummy strimmer!

A robotic lawnmower might be a long term solution once you have the jungle tamed. My mum and dad recently got one after two years of persuasion and after the initial glitch of the dog trying to kill it, it has transformed their lives!

I decided to take up free bass after playing Stradella for many years. In my situation I wanted to build upon what I already knew, rather than learn a new system from scratch.

Yes i guess this was the attraction that caused the bubble of interest in the 5th's system in the 70's. I was in a pushchair at the time banging pans together for musical enrichment.

By the way, thanks for sharing your Scarlatti recording on an earlier post, it was great playing and very nice music! I think I rather like sonata K9 also..

That's very kind. I had a listen to the K9 sonata. That Grayson guy has very fast fingers (although I'm sure the much missed Cory could have played it even faster!). I wonder what it would sound like a bit slower where the music has a chance to breathe, also does he play any late romantic Russian accordion music (you know who I'm thinking of) and if so, how fast?

 

[Walker]

A robotic lawnmower might be a long term solution once you have the jungle tamed. My mum and dad recently got one after two years of persuasion and after the initial glitch of the dog trying to kill it, it has transformed their lives!

Good idea... and if the robot mower gets carried off by a golden eagle and fed to it's chicks there's always the warranty to fall back on.

That's very kind. I had a listen to the K9 sonata. That Grayson guy has very fast fingers (although I'm sure the much missed Cory could have played it even faster!). I wonder what it would sound like a bit slower where the music has a chance to breathe, also does he play any late romantic Russian accordion music (you know who I'm thinking of) and if so, how fast?

@CPez a cool guy and a great player. I like Cory and he would also make short work of K9. I think he'd be a brilliant free bass player too, especially on system of 5ths. Just sayin'.

Funnily enough, I've never heard Grayson play Zolotaryov, though I think he'd do it well. He has a whole album on Semionov, plays brilliantly as usual. I'd like to hear an album of Tchaikovsky's The Seasons from Grayson, but I guess over time we each find the composers and styles of music we discern to be right for us.

 

[Tom]

Y'know, I was out strimming (some might say gouging) the endless fields that masquerade as my garden, with a petrol powered 'scythe' and I got to pondering important stuff - mainly imagining what would it be like to have a zero-turn ride-on mower instead of a crummy strimmer! Eventually the constant coarse buzz of the engine led me to think... are minor 3rd (C system, B system etc) modes easier to play in than 5th modes, like Stradella bass or Quint? Now, to be fair to you Ben, I think yes, there could be times when this happens. Say a person takes up the accordion to primarily learn free bass and is trying to study both Stradella bass (a 5th system) at the same time as free bass (usually minor 3rds) - I think there may well be times where it's easier to play music with a well crafted free bass line than a Stradella bass/chord vamp or bass run.

However, my experience with the accordion has been slightly different to the possible scenario above, as I decided to take up free bass after playing Stradella for many years. In my situation I wanted to build upon what I already knew, rather than learn a new system from scratch. That's why I chose Quint (5ths) over minor 3rds. I remember the time I first discovered there was a free bass system that was closely related to Stradella bass and I was delighted! However, I am aware that it's not the mainstream option at this time, apart from pockets of Quint interest in Italy, America and New Zealand etc. Though it's not at the height of its powers any more (this ain't USA circa 1975) I'm happy to keep going with it as I think it works well for me. In time I'd like to add a chromatic free bass accordion too, but that will have to wait. I think Quint PA and Chromatic button converters are fundamentally 'different' enough to be worth trying to learn both and hopefully gain the best of both worlds.​

I agree these very grand organ works aren't really necessary - I was mainly demonstrating that some accordions do go down as far as low C1. Grayson Masefield is a terrific accordionist though.

Thanks for sharing the Bach recording by Joerger - marvellous music. We need more of this type of music!

By the way, thanks for sharing your Scarlatti recording on an earlier post, it was great playing and very nice music! I think I rather like sonata K9 also...

You could plant potatoes or get a goat, or, I hear sheep do quite well in the Highlands. I had one of the “free lessons” from Grayson and I still suck. Stick to Bach…. I took a little diversion from the kitchen two steps to arrange and try Maple Sugar this week, although I have decided not to tap the maples this year. So many tunes, so little time.

 

[saundersbp]

@CPez a cool guy and a great player. I like Cory and he would also make short work of K9. I think he'd be a brilliant free bass player too, especially on system of 5ths. Just sayin'.

I like Cory too and as well as being a world class musician he's a brilliant communicator with fun and cheekiness thrown into the magic. It'd be amazing to get him to swap from the latest toaster to a nice Italian accordion as I'm sure it would be musically draw dropping.

I had one of the “free lessons” from Grayson and I still suck.

A fine musician - Stick with it Tom! I have one lesson each year from a world class player and am awed by their generosity and enthusiasm to teach a relative beginner like me. It pays to learn from the best I reckon and you always come out feeling inspired with the bar raised!

 

[Walker]

I wonder what it would sound like a bit slower where the music has a chance to breathe, also does he play any late romantic Russian accordion music (you know who I'm thinking of) and if so, how fast?

That's a really interesting point, Ben. Tempo matters. Sometimes I hear a rendition of a piece and it's played with a bit of 'zip' and it sounds super-duper and at other times I hear a piece that's been allowed to open-up and expand, and it sounds glorious. I guess that's where the artistic license kicks in...

Now, while I don't mind Zolotaryov, not my favourite composer, but I'll admit some of his music is quite lovely. I'm old fashioned... especially for the baroque composers from Britain.

A marvellous jewel of a piece is, of course, the Ground in C Minor by William Croft - a heady elixir that, once sampled, is never forgotten, even if it gets mistakenly attributed to the brilliant Henry Purcell.

Today I discovered another version (or two) of the Ground in C minor...

Slow:


Fast:



Medium:



I like them all, but to me the last version, on harpsichord, is mesmerizing.