Question about Elsbeth Moser's "The Chromatic Button Accordion C-Keyboard System: A Systematic Approach"

[Dark Phoenix]

I've just started looking into this method, as I'm a CBA player (Roland FR-1XB). Her description of the righthand set of buttons is exactly what I would expect, but her description of the lefthand set of buttons--as being a mirror image of the righthand set--makes no sense to me. I thought that my Roland had a fairly standard layout of the lefthand keys, but they do not mirror the layout of the key on the righthand. Can anyone offer any insight into this discrepancy? Do European CBAs have mirror-image layouts of the right- and left-hand sets of buttons?

 

[dunlustin]

Your Fr1X does have this as an option in Freebass mode - see the manual for the layout - it also shows other choices of Freebass eg Quint

 

[JerryPH]

To .match a C-system right hand, setup on the left of your v-accordion use the free bass option to Minor Thirds, then the 4 lower rows match the right hand. Bass and counter bass remain the same.

 

[dak]

I've just started looking into this method, as I'm a CBA player (Roland FR-1XB). Her description of the righthand set of buttons is exactly what I would expect, but her description of the lefthand set of buttons--as being a mirror image of the righthand set--makes no sense to me. I thought that my Roland had a fairly standard layout of the lefthand keys, but they do not mirror the layout of the key on the righthand.

That's because you left your Roland at the standard lefthand button layout which is a 2-4 Stradella bass. Elsbeth Moser, however, talks about free bass/converter mode in the left hand. The FR-1XB has a free bass mode that can do the same.

Can anyone offer any insight into this discrepancy? Do European CBAs have mirror-image layouts of the right- and left-hand sets of buttons?

In free bass mode, yes.

 

[Dark Phoenix]

The first (default) free base setting seems to match up perfectly with Moser's method. Thanks so much for pointing that out.

 

[vasiliy]

Just as an opinion. From my technical understanding, the russian B-system is more comfortable to play. The main reason is that when on free bass,
that the higher tones of musical text, that are more used to play melodies and variations, fits on the stronger set of finger 2,3,4. See for example every Mozart left hand ornament, or Bach's Cm Preludium. If on C-system you have exactly that rapid changes of notes on weak finger set 3,4,5.

If you see the piano keyboard, and split it in the middle, then you weill see that the left hand acts actually as in the russian B-system.

So, if you still on beginnig, consider learning Bajan Free-bass (russian B-system).

 

[JerryPH]

That’s only half true, the reverse is also equally true. The thing is that most free bass music is based on piano music where the left hand is traditionally going to play the lower octave in the vast majority of the music. This means you play most of the music at the top instead of the bottom on a non-Bayan system.. I find it more logical that BOTH my hands are at the top for low notes and higher as I move down towards my knees, but that has not stopped Bayan players from being amazing.. As far as the weak finger theory, that is only true until one has taken the time to strengthen the “weaker” fingers. The same thing can be said of any accordion, either hand… it will always be harder to use the 4-5 fingers… until you’ve taken the time to work on them.

My point? It doesn’t matter what system you can use , you can make amazing music on any system. The most constrictive system has to be the MIII C-system (the system that I play on), and there are tons of amazing accordionists that make wonderful music with it.

 

[vasiliy]

As far as the weak finger theory, that is only true until one has taken the time to strengthen the “weaker” fingers. The same thing can be said of any accordion, either hand… it will always be harder to use the 4-5 fingers… until you’ve taken the time to work on them.

My point? It doesn’t matter what system you can use , you can make amazing music on any system. The most constrictive system has to be the MIII C-system (the system that I play on), and there are tons of amazing accordionists that make wonderful music with it.

the weaker fingers are weak because of physiology (you can look. You can train them in a way, that there are not so weak, but the weak set of fingers will remain weak. No matter what you do.

And when playing it is every time better to use the strong set of fingers if possible. I think that playing on C-System is just more complicated that Bayan and for the novice accordion-players I would suggest the Bayan-System. Especially if on Roland-Accordion, where you can freely change them.

 

[Walker]

Just as an opinion. From my technical understanding, the russian B-system is more comfortable to play. The main reason is that when on free bass,
that the higher tones of musical text, that are more used to play melodies and variations, fits on the stronger set of finger 2,3,4. See for example every Mozart left hand ornament, or Bach's Cm Preludium. If on C-system you have exactly that rapid changes of notes on weak finger set 3,4,5.

Sure, bayan is great and lots of awesome music is just perfect for it. I'm a big fan of Semyonov's Guelder Rose and his Bulgarian Suite (especially the slow second part).

However, I'm not sure that any one system is 'more comfortable to play' than the others, because music is very varied and so it does not follow that one system is universally more comfortable than others. When it comes to music and accordion systems, 'you win some, you loose some'.

If you see the piano keyboard, and split it in the middle, then you weill see that the left hand acts actually as in the russian B-system.

Yup, I understand the point you are make here about the direction of note pitch travel. Fair point! But one should not forget that the piano player's left hand is free to move, completely untethered by a bass strap, unlike on an accordion or bayan, and so the bayan bass capabilities are not, in my opinion, a complete match for the piano (or other keyboard's) left hand. On some pieces free bass is very capable, but in other pieces 'free bass' is only 'freeish bass' and is not always ideal.

That’s only half true, the reverse is also equally true. The thing is that most free bass music is based on piano music where the left hand is traditionally going to play the lower octave in the vast majority of the music. This means you play most of the music at the top instead of the bottom on a non-Bayan system.. I find it more logical that BOTH my hands are at the top for low notes and higher as I move down towards my knees, but that has not stopped Bayan players from being amazing.. As far as the weak finger theory, that is only true until one has taken the time to strengthen the “weaker” fingers. The same thing can be said of any accordion, either hand… it will always be harder to use the 4-5 fingers… until you’ve taken the time to work on them.

Some very reasonable points here Jerry! To me, I think a lot of wonderful music was also written for harpsichord, organ, harmonium or even just unspecified 'keyboard' instrument, and much of it is very good on accordion, even using a variety of different free bass systems. As @saundersbp often suggests, what's really nice is the two part music that's not excessively virtuosic, but just simple and beautifully written.

I'm really appreciating music by John Blow, Henry Purcell, William Croft, Jeremiah Clarke etc, basically harpsichord music from the British Isles. However, to date I'm much less keen on Scarlatti's piano music, as I haven't found many pieces I'd really want to play on accordion. Maybe someone can direct me to the most suitable pieces.

My point? It doesn’t matter what system you can use , you can make amazing music on any system. The most constrictive system has to be the MIII C-system (the system that I play on), and there are tons of amazing accordionists that make wonderful music with it.

I'm not sure about MIII always being the most constrictive - I'm sure on some pieces the left hand will fall perfectly on the right notes in the way they wouldn't on other systems. Plus, you don't have to press any switches to move between free bass and standard bass! Also, Stefan Hussong's version of Bach's Goldberg Variations is the best I've ever heard by anyone (well, apart from the great Canadian, Glenn Gould) and Mie Miki's recordings of Grieg's lyric pieces are magnificent!

 

[dak]

Also, Stefan Hussong's version of Bach's Goldberg Variations is the best I've ever heard by anyone

Try Lena Rist-Larsen. She's made this a rather personal project of hers, including getting a special-made accordion.

 

[JerryPH]

I'm not sure about MIII always being the most constrictive - I'm sure on some pieces the left hand will fall perfectly on the right notes in the way they wouldn't on other systems. Plus, you don't have to press any switches to move between free bass and standard bass! Also, Stefan Hussong's version of Bach's Goldberg Variations is the best I've ever heard by anyone (well, apart from the great Canadian, Glenn Gould) and Mie Miki's recordings of Grieg's lyric pieces are magnificent!

Thanks as ever Stewart.
The point about constriction is that on MIII one has to reach 2-2.5 inches over 6 rows of buttons to reach 3 more rows... literally I have the bass strap near the middle of my forearm.

That said, MIII is not an excuse for not being able to play complex pieces for sure!

The Bach Goldberg variations is such a special piece of music that you can play it on pretty much anything and it sounds wonderful. Playing all 32 parts would be for me a lifetime piece of work... lol

 

[Walker]

The point about constriction is that on MIII one has to reach 2-2.5 inches over 6 rows of buttons to reach 3 more rows... literally I have the bass strap near the middle of my forearm.

To me every system has its constraints...

I don't think C system is lesser than bayan/B system in the slightest and I can also see the benefits in MIII over converters on some music too.

It's good when folk are nuanced and open in understanding their accordions, like you Jerry. On my free bass system (Quint) the biggest constraint is that the range of notes is a little bit limited. I only have a small free bass accordion with 41 keys, 120 bass and 3 octave (36 notes) free bass, starting from a low C2 upwards, like the cello. There is a lot of music that fits within this compass and also I never run out of high notes. Luckily, 99% or so of Bach's keyboard works are within range for me and a lot of other renaissance and baroque too. However, there's plenty of music that dips under C2. I guess in the past small harpsichords, spinets and organs etc did often stop at around C2 and hence lots of music works for me. However, over time the designs of harpsichords, in particular, became larger and F1 became the new low note (piano even goes down to A0, and that's way lower than every accordion system). Now, I could easily remedy this lack of very low notes with a big 160 bass accordion that would go right down to C1 - but then, to me the bulk and weight is a bigger problem than missing the really low notes. I like accordions that are about 12.5kg or less, because I find them comfortable to play - I like to play the accordion and almost forget it's there. Also, I tend to like pieces that aren't too rangy anyway.

The other constraint I have (which is kind of a nothing-issue for me) is that I wouldn't want to be playing very fast chromatic scales over a big range of notes, say 2 octaves, on Quint free bass. It wouldn't be ideal when compared to a chromatic free bass accordion! Luckily, I've not found any music (that I want to play) that contains such features. I think it's more the modern composers, the likes of Zolotaryov, who used long, fast chromatic runs in his works. I guess he was writing for what suits his accordion/bayan and is straightforward to play. However, it's a style of writing that I don't really enjoy.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's normal to play music that suits the capabilities and limitations of any instrument. The accordion doesn't need to be some all-conquering, mega-instrument. It just needs to be... musical.​

 

[dak]

big 160 bass accordion that would go right down to C1

Sure? C1 is a common lowest note for bass accordions, but most "two-sided" "big accordions" including bayans end at E1 on the bass side. My own non-standard "big one" actually goes down to E1 with its standard bass and only offers an extra 2 notes down to D1 in the free bass. But E1 very much seems like a standard low point.

 

[Walker]

For certain, the big Quints with 160 bass go down to C1, because you gain the full 'contra octave' on those extra 2 rows.

Deeper than bayan....

 

[dak]

For certain, the big Quints with 160 bass go down to C1, because you gain the full 'contra octave' on those extra 2 rows.

Deeper than bayan....

Ah yes, quint converters are an obvious candidate since their free bass octaves start at C. It is not a cast-iron technical necessity, but putting the octave break anywhere else would totally block players from conveniently switching between instruments.

 

[saundersbp]

I'm much less keen on Scarlatti's piano music, as I haven't found many pieces I'd really want to play on accordion

Poor Scarlatti!
One of my favourites is this one - full of big smiles and summer sunshine.

I think it's more the modern composers, the likes of Zolotaryov, who used long, fast chromatic runs in his works. I guess he was writing for what suits his accordion/bayan and is straightforward to play. However, it's a style of writing that I don't really enjoy.

Poor Zolotaryov!
His graceful poetic and tuneful style isn't in vogue everywhere, but I haven't come across many long chromatic bass runs, maybe a brain freeze but I can only think of one in the whole lot...

Try this for size with free bass everyone can manage and a minimalist tune to die for - thumbelina/one inch girl - starts at 1.40 mins

My point? It doesn’t matter what system you can use , you can make amazing music on any system. The most constrictive system has to be the MIII C-system (the system that I play on), and there are tons of amazing accordionists that make wonderful music with it.

Agreed - with enough practice amazing music on almost anything is possible! However having heard quite a few hard working amateur enthusiasts (to which I strive myself) play 5ths system, it does feel like heavy going to get fluency compared to a chromatic free bass model.

 

[JerryPH]

Poor Scarlatti!
One of my favourites is this one - full of big smiles and summer sunshine.

Truth! . Scarlatti has a great number of pieces that translate directly to the accordion!

Agreed - with enough practice amazing music on almost anything is possible! However having heard quite a few hard working amateur enthusiasts (to which I strive myself) play 5ths system, it does feel like heavy going to get fluency compared to a chromatic free bass model.

I have a bit of an opinion there... that it would depend greatly on the age of the person and their goals. A young player will just as eagerly devour any style of FB system (because ignorance is bliss... lol). When I was in the conservatory in Toronto, it was a novel sight to see a CBA (perhaps 4 or so at the time?), indeed of the perhaps 200-250 accordion students, it was rare to see anything other than a Gola and even fewer than CBA or any of the 3 Giulietti PAs, was me all alone with my monster Morino PA, I was in a group of ONE there... lol

Where the differences may start to mostly show is in the last 10 percent at the highest level of elite players, there we can see more of a potential difference, short of that it really is an "anything one can do, another can do too".

 

[vasiliy]

Agreed - with enough practice amazing music on almost anything is possible! However having heard quite a few hard working amateur enthusiasts (to which I strive myself) play 5ths system, it does feel like heavy going to get fluency compared to a chromatic free bass model.

BTW, does somebody managed to play a latin-american music on a chromatic accorion? I mean something like this: or this

 

[OuijaBoard]

BTW, does somebody managed to play a latin-american music on a chromatic accorion? I mean something like this: or this

R VRIvZ90Q[/MEDIA]

Yes. Here is an article by Accordion Noir highlighting some notables.

Oscar Hernandez: Texas Conjunto to Another Level

So I’m writing about the use of accordion in Texas-Mexican border music. Pretty cool, I’ve never felt like I knew what was going on there. I’m getting a beginning of a feel for …

accordionuprising.wordpress.com

There is also a current big name in conjunto accordion who plays cromatico, but I must dig for it. It's a fabulous player who switched, but I'll be damned if I can come up with his name at the moment.

But here's a snippet from another very nice player:

 

[OuijaBoard]

I don't think this is the player I wasrecalling, but David Lee Garza plays tejano (more electrified fusiony sound but still norteno/tex-mex) on CBA: