Transition from piano accordion to button

[insert-witty-username]

Thanks for the advice and encouragement so far. By the way, in my desperation, I've also toyed with the idea of developing a personal notation that shows not the note that sounds but rather the button you push.
The diatonic accordion is played this way (if you play from the score), and this is actually what I started out on, and I found this very easy to play even in comparison with the PA.

 

[JerryPH]

If I was a little younger, super brave and a little foolhardy, I know where a B-griff Gola 459 is and its available for a fine price... but I am not that brave... LOL

 

[petch]

I also don't know how I should best process the information from the score. Should I be thinking "that's an E, that's on the second row, let's push that button"? I could do that easily if I had a second to think for every note.
Or should I be thinking more in intervals: "That's down a semitone, so let's make the corresponding movement." Here there are at least two problems: (1) You don't see the intervals easily from the score (for example, major and minor thirds look the same); (2) What exactly your fingers are supposed to be doing depends on in which row you currently are.

I've been doing the former for a little over a year and I'm finding the latter is beginning to come naturally

it's especially noticeable when using the 4th and 5th row, I'm not thinking "oh which row is that on?", my fingers are just starting to 'know' how far to go for the interval

still plenty of mistakes but I can really feel the progress, it just takes time

 

[Zevy]

I never knew much about button accordions, and I still don't, but the notes that you indicated on each row are interesting in that each row makes a diminished chord ! Never knew that !

Hey Ed - If you would play more Frosini you’d have known that a long time ago!

 

[Walker]

The button accordion indeed has potential to allow a musician to make creative and unique music. It can be a journey of discovery to make sounds never previously heard on a keyboard instrument. Sure the piano accordion can create exceptional music too, but the best piano accordion players - the guys at the very top, they need to adapt the most extremely technical music to suit the parameters of the piano keyboard. Sometimes, people like Radu Ratoi can win world championships and be victorious over world class button accordionists - but they do it by using transcriptions of keyboard works by Liszt, Mozart, Bach - stuff that suits the piano keyboard and when it comes to modern Russian bayan music, they play the pieces with certain adaptations that are not required by the great button accordionists. Button key is so flexible! However, what I just described above does not apply to 99% of accordionists. We tend to be in the same boat of muddling through (with varying degrees of success) - button and piano alike. I for one am never going to play Kalina Krasnaya (not even the piano accordion arrangement) but then many buttons accordionist's won't manage it either. I guess over time, you might eventually find that the button accordion is easier to play as, if nothing else, the notes are closer together and less of a stretch. I don't think that would be a strong enough reason for me to 'switch'. However, as a project of positive learning I think it's a tough but good challenge. Good luck @insert-witty-username.

 

[dan]

Thanks for the advice and encouragement so far. By the way, in my desperation, I've also toyed with the idea of developing a personal notation that shows not the note that sounds but rather the button you push.
The diatonic accordion is played this way (if you play from the score), and this is actually what I started out on, and I found this very easy to play even in comparison with the PA.

Florence Glorion has a method book for CBA and some Bretton folk tunes written in tablature. Might be a good way for you to learn at least until you get comfortable with the keyboard layout.

 

[dan]

Or should I be thinking more in intervals: "That's down a semitone, so let's make the corresponding movement." Here there are at least two problems: (1) You don't see the intervals easily from the score (for example, major and minor thirds look the same); (2) What exactly your fingers are supposed to be doing depends on in which row you currently are.

Some things are easier on CBA than PA (ear playing, improvising, arpeggios, chromatic runs) but I definitely struggle more with sight reading and parallel thirds on CBA for the reasons you describe. Maybe these two ways of thinking (notes and intervals) can be learned in tandem—I.e. say the note names when you practice moving chord or scale shapes?

 

[Dingo40]

Something like guitar tablature could work ?

 

[Siegmund]

Some things are easier on CBA than PA (ear playing, improvising, arpeggios, chromatic runs) but I definitely struggle more with sight reading and parallel thirds on CBA for the reasons you describe. Maybe these two ways of thinking (notes and intervals) can be learned in tandem—I.e. say the note names when you practice moving chord or scale shapes?

I think that is a good plan. Either note-names, or scale-steps, or both, depending on your mood.

Parallel thirds, for instance: on PA you have to know what key you are in, to know which of 12 patterns to follow, but then you don't think about what's minor and major. On CBA you have to know what key you are in too: the major thirds are above the tonic, subdominant, and dominant. Now you can say to yourself (in C major): "CE - different rows!; DF side by side, EG side by side, FA - different rows! GB - different rows! AC side by side, BD side by side." "Different rows" means "one row apart" unless you've hit the edge of your keyboard, in which case it means "two rows apart, and the next minor third moves to the other set of rows than before." The whole pattern repeats every 2 octaves, with alternating "2-3 in the back, 1-4 or 1-5 in the front" fingers.

Once you get the pattern going in one key it's quite easy to get it going in the other two keys (and three is all you ever need.)

As for tablature -- I am not sure that there is much benefit to it, given that every pitch appears in only 1 or 2 places on the keyboard. Just marking the notes that are on the back rows may be enough. I occasionally specify fingering for every note, but in less tricky passages I often just write "Back!" or "Front!" over a group of notes where I have a choice, and otherwise use the most obvious fingering as I go.

 

[Pipemajor]

Some things are easier on CBA than PA (ear playing, improvising,

Funnily, I find the opposite. I can read just as well on the CBA as I did on the PA when I played it, but found ear playing and improvising more difficult on the CBA. Perhaps because I had piano lessons from the age of 10 (and I'm now 83), I need more time spent on the CBA

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

Hello everyone,

this is my first post here. I recently started playing the (piano) accordion again after a close to 20 year hiatus.
My question is in the title: I was wondering how difficult it would be to switch from piano to chromatic button.

If this something you truly enjoy doing, it doesn't matter how difficult it is. You won't even notice the struggle at all.


Now, for a starters, if you decide to make this journey, first get the button accordion. Learn how to make scales on the button sides and practice with arpeggios and triads. Don't stress yourself learning any particular song until you find comfortable using your squeeze box.

Now, If you do want to learn a couple of songs with the proper fingering. I can recommend you to take the beginners course of Button accordion at the Online Academy of Irish Music.

Here is the first lesson for free on youtube (It's around 20$ per month to have access to the course, but I think is worth it for what you get. )



That should be a good start. If you do feel enjoying this path, go one step further and contact a teacher online that could give you a sample lesson for free and a song to learn.

 

[SteveBox]

I think the OAIM course on button accordion is for the Irish-style diatonic box, not for the CBA.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I think the OAIM course on button accordion is for the Irish-style diatonic box, not for the CBA.

You are right. It is a diatonic box. My mistake, sorry.

There is another video. Here, professor Nina Tritinichenko teaches the basics of the CBA. You can schedule a free sample lesson with her, if you feel like taking one.



Unfortunately, in North America, you will have a hard time finding used and cheap CB Accordions locally so you will most likely have to buy it online, which might be risky.

In this other video, Professor Nina shows you how to get an used CBA from Amazon:




You could also try with Jack Brantley and his shop in Georgia. He may have some used CBAs for you (give him a call and ask for a CBA on a budget. He has more in his inventory than what his website shows).

ACCORDIONOLOGY

Accordionology: Accordions for sale. Repair, restore and tune. Decatur, GA, Atlanta area.

www.accordionology.com

You could also go with Libertybelows in Philadelphia.

Link to Libertybellows RIGHT HERE

I personally wouldn't recommend buying one of their CBAs for learning because they are too expensive for what you need now, in my opinion.

Good hunting,

Jaime

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

So, I have some feedback from my experience.

First, I was able to learn how to make scales and all of that on the B system, with ease. So far, it was kind of easy and satisfying.

The most harder part, however, and as mentioned before by others, is the fingering. The combinations are vast. There is no standard at all, and you have to come up with fingering that a master accordionists approve. You may end up with bad habits if you try to self taught.

The biggest drawback, however, is that I was playing in one of those old bayans from the soviet union, and they are very uncomfortable to play and use. At the end, I ended up selling it and I got the money back from it.

But to be honest, I don't think is worth it for me to switch and throw away all that time practicing on the piano layout.

Usually, students in conservatories will use a piano or button instruments, so I supposed is just a matter of which layout they picked first when they started learning. Several mentors of mine have recommended me not to switch, so I better follow their advice.

One advantage you have with the piano accordion is that you can use best fingering principles from Piano and organ to back you up in your studies. With the button accordion, you have none of that and you have to learn from a very good teacher, expert on one system.

Several virtuoso accordionists who play both layouts have told me that, except for some music pieces, learning both layouts is redundant. You can do as well on a piano or button accordion.

 

[Alans]

I was pushed into buying a button accordion by a not very nice dealer. Anyways I’ve always only worked on piano but I have this button one so I’m going to try. I have the Gallani method and at least the first three notes seemed pretty logical. I’m going to be working with a teacher in Serbia who plays everything and he feels the button system is more logical. So I’ll have to see.
I haven’t heard about the method mentioned above so I need to see if I can find it. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of lit. for button accordions.

 

[Zevy]

So, I have some feedback from my experience.

Thanks for the update. I hope you will have only positive experiences from now on.

One advantage you have with the piano accordion is that you can use best fingering principles from Piano and organ to back you up in your studies.

Regarding the use of piano technique on the piano accordion, I would refer you to the late Bob Smith’s book on fingering for the piano accordion. He discusses various methods for both the right hand and the left hand. He mentions that the piano accordion technique is more similar to that of the organ than the piano. In short, there are many similarities in keyboard instruments, but there are certain very specific things that are to be learned on the accordion, where the keyboard is vertical and not horizontal.
Good luck!

 

[Ffingers]

Jaime_Dergut wrote...

"With the button accordion, you have none of that and you have to learn from a very good teacher, expert on one system."

I disagree - all you have to do with the CBA, C or B, is to apply a little logic to your learning.
Each piece that I play naturally develops an appropriate fingering option after a couple of goes which, with my restricted hand flexibility, is very, very useful. I would not be able to use a piano style keyboard with the same degree of articulation.

The Accordion Method authored by Richard Galleano and his father Lucien offers suggestions for fingering on both CBA 'C' and piano keyboards which I happily ignore for use on my 'B' system boxes with absolutely no trouble, but their advice for fingerings on the Stradella bass I have found helpful.
The Galleano book also provides audio samples of its lessons (downloads) which I have found very helpful.

My own learning progress is hampered somewhat by old age, osteo arthritis in all my joints, as well as relapses of the dreaded Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Fibromyalgia/ Myalgic Encephalomyalitis/ or whatever other ridiculous name the medical profession apply to the symptoms, but I am succeeding in my aim to happily amuse myself musically and to not overly annoy my housemate.

If you add some mental flexibility to the obvious logic of the button keyboard you will gallop ahead; stick to rigid 'taught' behaviours and you will surely fail as a creative musician.

Many very successful musicians, past and present, never had any formal training and many could never even sight read simply because they were/are unsighted.

So, in my not-so-humble opinion, you will only succeed if you ditch those negativities, view them as challenges to be enjoyed in the process of coping with them and above all, to have fun.

So, as my all-time favorite comedian would say at the conclusion of each performance: "...and may your God go with you."

 

[debra]

...
Several virtuoso accordionists who play both layouts have told me that, except for some music pieces, learning both layouts is redundant. You can do as well on a piano or button accordion.

That's not really true. You can do as well on a piano or button accordion... as long as you use notes that are relatively close together. On a button accordion you can easily play huge chords, like C-G-E or C-Bb-G or double octaves C-C-C. With effort and not too small hands people can play the first, very few the second and nobody the third, on piano accordion. And while playing runs with single notes a two-octave jump is easy on a button accordion (because it's not really a jump, you can play it legato if you wish) and this is difficult (and impossible with legato) on a piano accordion.
If you have a look at my arrangement of Pavane opus 50 by Fauré below (fragment) I had to change it for my ensemble because the player in the first voice (on piano accordion) could not play the long low notes sufficiently "portato" and then make the two octave jump up. It just sounded terrible (low long note always too short). On button accordion this is just very easy and you could do it legato instead of portato if you wanted.
So no, you cannot do as well on a piano or button accordion.

 

[Jaime_Dergut]

I was pushed into buying a button accordion by a not very nice dealer. Anyways I’ve always only worked on piano but I have this button one so I’m going to try. I have the Gallani method and at least the first three notes seemed pretty logical. I’m going to be working with a teacher in Serbia who plays everything and he feels the button system is more logical. So I’ll have to see.
I haven’t heard about the method mentioned above so I need to see if I can find it. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of lit. for button accordions.

After that, I hope you got an instrument that is responsive and comfortable to play.

The old bayan I got (from Etsy, actually, because it was cheaper there) was really uncomfortable to use, and its sounded not good at all. I have spent like 6 months practicing on it until one day I realized I wasn't motivated enough in learning further because the instrument was just awful to use.

I was able to sell it recently to some Ukrainians, and I feel lucky I did because, who else is going to buy that think? Ha!

I would not recommend to buy those old bayans, at least, not for a beginner.

For an alternative that you could easily get outside of Europe, and sounds decently good, is the Roland button accordion:

Roland FR-1XB Premium V​

​

It is quite expensive, but cheaper than most good quality acoustic BA. Since it is digital, you can change it to B or C system, it has free bass, and are light weight. The most convenient thing, for what I see, is that it should be easier to resale it later once you are done learning.

It seems to me like a convenient tool for learning. I am not sure what the drawbacks are when you later want to play an acoustic accordion .

 

[Rosie C]

After that, I hope you got an instrument that is responsive and comfortable to play.

The old bayan I got (from Etsy, actually, because it was cheaper there) was really uncomfortable to use, and its sound not so good. Spent like 6 months practicing on it until one day I realize I wasn't motivated in learning more because the instrument was just awful to use.

I was able to sell it recently to some Ukrainians, and I feel lucky I did!

I would not recommend to buy those old bayans from the soviet union, at least, not for a beginner.

For an alternative that you could easily get outside of Europe, and sounds decently good, is the Roland button accordion:

Roland FR-1XB Premium V​

​

It is quite expensive, but cheaper than most good quality acoustic BA. Since it is digital, you can change it to B or C system, it has free bass, and are light weight. The most convenient thing, for what I see, is that it should be easier to resale it later once you are done learning.

It seems to me like a convenient tool for learning. I am not sure what the drawbacks are when you later want to play an acoustic accordion .

I've been thinking of getting a CBA, and it has occured to me to get an FR-1XB - a new one would be about 50% more than a good used acoustic CBA and wouldn't need microphones fitting.