Transition from piano accordion to button

[insert-witty-username]

Hello everyone,

this is my first post here. I recently started playing the (piano) accordion again after a close to 20 year hiatus.
My question is in the title: I was wondering how difficult it would be to switch from piano to chromatic button. The question may not make that much sense in this form, so maybe you could try to be a bit more concrete. For example, how long should it take to reach the advanced intermediate level on button that I think I used to be at on the piano accordion.
I should also emphasize that I play from the score exclusively, not by ear. I'm a bit scared that the standard musical notation may be unintuitive to translate into finger movements on a button keyboard, a bit like playing the bass directly from the clef (which I never managed, I play by letter/symbol).
(This is very much unlike a diatonic button instrument, where you play from a special notation, and which I found quite easy to play.)

 

[vivdunstan]

Welcome! I’m sure others will chip in with helpful comments. I asked a similar question recently and you may find the responses in that thread helpful too.

Long-term piano accordionist newly learning CBA - experiences?

I‘m very tempted to get an extremely compact 4-row C CBA - I have my eyes on one particular model. But I’m curious to hear from other experienced piano accordionists re how you found picking up the fingering. Was it a challenge? Did it take an awful lot of practice? How are you getting on? Are...

www.accordionists.info

 

[saundersbp]

A couple of years I'd guess to reach this level with a few provisos:
- you are committed and practice hard.
- you love learning new things.
- you take a few consultation lessons from a top teacher in this field. By top I mean world class because these people have fingering that doesn't go wrong.
- you are dedicated to working out principles of fingering (rather than finding fingering that 'sort of works'...). There appears to me to be a particular issue with CBA fingering and plenty of well meant but not very good advice that gets you so far but no further, coupled with a general mystique, confusion and unhelpful relativism.

By the way, I think buttons are better based on being lifelong piano player but that subject is not a useful can of worms to open up here. Why are you wanting to switch?

 

[debra]

As already said this has been asked and discussed a number of times.
If you can play the piano accordion at a pretty good level it takes 5 or 6 years of very regular practice to reach about the same level on CBA. I know one player who finished the bachelor degree at the conservatory on PA and then practiced a LOT over the summer and then started the master on CBA. This is highly exceptional. (She is now a professional concert accordion player.)
My wife and I have made the switch and have experienced that 5 or 6 year estimate. But before everything feels completely intuitive and natural it took us twice that long.
Needless to say if your PA skills are pretty basic you can get to the same level on CBA in much less time.

 

[insert-witty-username]

Thank you everyone for the replies so far.
I've toyed with the idea initially just because it might be fun to try something new (I also switched from accordion to piano for similar reasons, though I've now decided that was a bad idea). But I really arrived at it more seriously through a convoluted thought process: (1) I'm thinking about upgrading to a better instrument; (2) one option I'm considering is a Roland digital accordion; (3) Fr-1 with just two octaves treble seems too limiting; (4) $2000 extra for the few additional notes on the Fr-4 seems excessive; (5) so maybe an Fr-1 button?

 

[saundersbp]

Roland digital accordion

The girl guides.....? My favourite quote "for those that like that sort of thing that is the sort of thing they like"

 

[losthobos]

If it's your profession stick with what you know. .... if it's your passion make the change.

 

[Dingo40]

I-W-U,
Some random thoughts on the matter :
The CBA is a very different animal to the PA..
For me, it is conceptually more like a guitar than a piano, whereas a PA is quite a lot like a piano (and other keyboards ).
So, the Stradella bass apart, jumping from PA to CBA , to me, you may as well jump from PA to zither .
Secondly, you may already own a PA, and CBAs don't grow on trees.
Which of the numerous CBA formats would you go for?
Think PA teachers are scarce? At least you can use a piano teacher as a stand in.
The fingering options for CBA (even how many fingers you actually utilise) appears to be endless, thereby confusing.
The right hand buttons offer a smaller target to hit than keys.
As you can see from the many threads on the subject, the Rolands come with their own set of problems!

 

[debra]

If it's your profession stick with what you know. .... if it's your passion make the change.

That sounds like very sensible advice. Still, Both a current and previous teacher at the conservatory (clearly professionals, and concert musicians as well) have made the switch, and several others I know too. And my friend and conductor of the dutch symphonic accordion orchestra (Tim Fletcher) has made the switch to CBA for a few years, then went back to PA, and now he made the switch to Kravtsov keyboard. I know quite a few more professionals who made the switch, but only a few (passionate) amateurs.

 

[Walker]

I suppose it's only natural for there to be a little bit of sibling rivalry between keys and buttons. However, I have heard enough great exponents of each system to know that both are very capable.

I like some Jazz, baroque keyboard music and traditional Scottish music on PA. I also think French musette, original bayan music and classical/orchestral transcriptions can be nice on CBA.

Thing is, most accordionists aren't aiming for conservatoire level - they just want to have fun and get a few tunes learned. They are not studying for a degree and don't need a world class teacher either. So I think, why not get an FR1X if that's what you enjoy, and play it. If it doesn't work out there's always the PA to fall back on, perhaps with renewed appreciation...

Good luck.

 

[insert-witty-username]

Thank you again for the interesting comments. Reading some of this, I'm now thinking I may have been misleading about my skill level. I'm almost entirely self-taught, totally talent free when it comes to music, and I play for my own enjoyment only (though I did play in [very amateur] accordion orchestras back in Europe). It would never have occurred to me to waste money on a teacher.

 

[TomBR]

When I changed to CBA from a position of very limited piano keyboard skills I wondered whether reading music on CBA would be harder. I found it easier on CBA because you only have four notes on each row,
D F G# B
E G Bb C#
F# A C Eb
and the buttons are widely spaced on each row.

 

[Pipemajor]

Thank you again for the interesting comments. Reading some of this, I'm now thinking I may have been misleading about my skill level. I'm almost entirely self-taught, totally talent free when it comes to music, and I play for my own enjoyment only (though I did play in [very amateur] accordion orchestras back in Europe). It would never have occurred to me to waste money on a teacher.

Join the club. You are amongst friends

 

[insert-witty-username]

I just got some information from a dealer (maybe this isn't news to the folks here, but it was to me): production of the Fr-1xb is on hold because of (predictable?) problems when moving it to China. The model might be back in stock in March/April, or not.
That gives me more time to reflect, and I'm a whole lot less enthusiastic about the Fr-1xb already. I think some day I would just like to buy something (accordion, anything, ...) not made in China.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I’ve considered making the change many times, but now, I’d be foolish to try since I’m 82. But my research has told me the following:

1. There are several treble layouts for CBA’s, but C system and B system are the most common. Buying a Roland gives yoy the advantage of supplying both systems (and some others) so you can see which one seems to be the easiest one for you. However, it’s easier to find instructional materials, especially ones written in English, for C system in the USA. For example, Richard Galliano and his father, Lucien, have written a book that teaches both CBA (C system) and piano-accordion. This book was originally written in French, but is now also available in English.

2. By coincidence, and only for the first simplest exercises and songs, the fingering notation ( 1 2 3 4 5 ) for your right hand works for both PA and CBA in the outside three rows of the CBA.

3. It would serve you well to learn to read bass clef. There is AAA notation which works well with Stradella bass, but many materials that you will see later on in your development will assume that you are using one of several free bass systems, so reading chords in bass clef will be important since you will be creating those chords with three or four fingers of your left hand.

 

[EMan]

When I changed to CBA from a position of very limited piano keyboard skills I wondered whether reading music on CBA would be harder. I found it easier on CBA because you only have four notes on each row,
D F G# B
E G Bb C#
F# A C Eb
and the buttons are widely spaced on each row.

I never knew much about button accordions, and I still don't, but the notes that you indicated on each row are interesting in that each row makes a diminished chord ! Never knew that !

 

[rosette]

I-W-U,
Some random thoughts on the matter :
The CBA is a very different animal to the PA..
For me, it is conceptually more like a guitar than a piano, whereas a PA is quite a lot like a piano (and other keyboards ).
So, the Stradella bass apart, jumping from PA to CBA , to me, you may as well jump from PA to zither .
Secondly, you may already own a PA, and CBAs don't grow on trees.
Which of the numerous CBA formats would you go for?
Think PA teachers are scarce? At least you can use a piano teacher as a stand in.
The fingering options for CBA (even how many fingers you actually utilise) appears to be endless, thereby confusing.
The right hand buttons offer a smaller target to hit than keys.
As you can see from the many threads on the subject, the Rolands come with their own set of problems!

Interesting perspective Dingo. I have been considering getting a CBA, but wondering whether it was worth it since I am already familiar with the piano layout...but I'm actually much comfortable with the guitar as that's my main instrument. Will this 'conceptually' help the transition from PA to CBA?

One can only try and find out.

 

[insert-witty-username]

To give an update on the whole project: I did get a "cheap" (in a relative sense) CBA, and I'm now trying to make some progress on this (on the side, I still play PA mainly). I'm using Maugain's method.

I have to say, I find it quite challenging. What I mean is that it does put some strain on my maybe too old brain, I am moving through at least the beginner's book quickly with no big problems, but it never feels very relaxed.

I also don't know how I should best process the information from the score. Should I be thinking "that's an E, that's on the second row, let's push that button"? I could do that easily if I had a second to think for every note.
Or should I be thinking more in intervals: "That's down a semitone, so let's make the corresponding movement." Here there are at least two problems: (1) You don't see the intervals easily from the score (for example, major and minor thirds look the same); (2) What exactly your fingers are supposed to be doing depends on in which row you currently are.

As always, any advice will be appreciated.

 

[JerryPH]

The mechanics of the process have to be repeated as many times as it takes until it becomes automatic, unfortunately each one will have to face that battle on their own terms and timeline, no one can say how long it takes as it is different for everyone.

Until your mind has a clear picture of the keyboard layout, until you can go consistently to the note that you want, yes, the best way to "map" things out is to think exact note and location on keyboard and hit it.

Next comes proper fingering for effeciency and then continued improvement... slowly.

There are no shortcuts in this game, unfortunately.

 

[CC_PDX]

When I switched over almost 2 years ago I used the Maugein book for a couple weeks and found it useful for getting the basics. For me, the 3 things that locked it in were 1) the relationships - semitone in one direction, whole tone in the other direction. 2) knowing that notes only ever appear on a single row (stick to 3 rows to start, the 4th and 5th rows are repeats for additional fingering options) and 3) The 3 scale shapes—if you can get those under your fingers, the chords start to fill in pretty intuitively and you can use those partial fragments of scales in lots of contexts just by moving them around.

Based on stories I’ve read from others, I would not say my experience is typical, but switching is definitely do-able. I would encourage spending a lot of time just listening and experimenting rather than focusing so much on the score. Work out any simple tunes that you know from memory.