Old vs New

[Xiane]

I believe the Manfrini concern is well-regarded. I do know people in the US who have Manfrini 2-rows and swear by them. Their B/C/C# model seems pretty impressive. Ordering one and going the import route might not be such a bad idea.

That sounds good. One of those things where I might reward myself for reaching a level where I "deserve" such an instrument.

 

[96Bass]

Eventually I'll probably find my way to a very nice 30/72 LMM PA by Beltuna or Serenellini or such, but there's no rush.

I own two Beltuna PA accordions and had a Serenellini in my possession for a short period. Beltunas are excellent accordions, Serenellini - not so much. Go for the Beltuna.
When I was looking for a new accordion, when I was playing mostly Celtic music, I contacted John Castiglione who was stocking the Castagnari Magica PA. He quickly steered me in the Beltuna direction. He said there was no comparison in the quality of the instruments. Even though he was selling them, he didn't seem to hold Castagnari in high regard. This was around 2004.

 

[OuijaBoard]

That sounds good. One of those things where I might reward myself for reaching a level where I "deserve" such an instrument.

A big mentor for me on Irish traditional accordion was the late Desmond O'Regan, originally of Galway, but living in the US for the last numerous decades of his life. He was a fine and lovely B/C 2-row player in the traditional East Galway style who counted Joe Burke, Joe Cooley and Kevin Keegan as dear friends (and co-conspirators in mischief and shenanigans).

But his gigging life was as a beloved showband leader, Galway, New York, Boston, and the US West Coast. For the trad sessions he led, he had a red Paolo Soprani B/C 2-row. But for his showband life, it was a Paolo Soprani Shand Morino all the way:

 

[Xiane]

A big mentor for me on Irish traditional accordion was the late Desmond O'Regan, originally of Galway, but living in the US for the last numerous decades of his life. He was a fine and lovely B/C 2-row player in the traditional East Galway style who counted Joe Burke, Joe Cooley and Kevin Keegan as dear friends (and co-conspirators in mischief and shenanigans).

But his gigging life was as a beloved showband leader, Galway, New York, Boston, and the US West Coast. For the trad sessions he led, he had a red Paolo Soprani B/C 2-row. But for his showband life, it was a Paolo Soprani Shand Morino all the way:

That's interesting! What a great opportunity for you. There's a lot more showband and dancehall stuff you can do with the Big Shand.

 

[96Bass]

I see it dawned on Phil Cunningham-- he has some very nice compact PAs.

A big mentor for me on Irish traditional accordion was the late Desmond O'Regan, originally of Galway, but living in the US for the last numerous decades of his life. He was a fine and lovely B/C 2-row player in the traditional East Galway style who counted Joe Burke, Joe Cooley and Kevin Keegan as dear friends (and co-conspirators in mischief and shenanigans).

But his gigging life was as a beloved showband leader, Galway, New York, Boston, and the US West Coast. For the trad sessions he led, he had a red Paolo Soprani B/C 2-row. But for his showband life, it was a Paolo Soprani Shand Morino all the way:

What a very small world! When my brother and I ( living in Los Angeles) first became interested in traditional Irish music, we would go to the sessions at Des Regan's pub. Even though we were complete novices and really had no idea what we were doing, Des was super encouraging and supportive. We became proficient enough to form a band. The video you linked was taken at The Grand National Irish Fair. The first time we attended it was at Devonshire Downs, then moved to The Equestrian Center in Griffith Park, and then moved to The Rose Bowl. Our group, Reel to Reel, played at the fair during the years it was at Griffith Park. There were several music stages and one year we were on a stage where we were on rotation with Mick Moloney, Robbie O'Connell, and Jimmy Keane. Des opened a bigger pub and that is where I saw Joe Burke perform. His pubs were in North Hollywood and Bubank if I recall correctly. The photo is the band I played with, circa 1987. The Guerrini accordion in the photo is the same accordion in the video I posted: https://www.accordionists.info/threads/20-tuning-on-four-accordions.11938/#post-121723

 

[Pipemajor]

I've seen a lot of British Chromatics over the years by Hohner, Paolo Soprani, Excelsior, Serenellini, Fantini, Manfrini, Super Salas... The vintage Shand Excelsior was a really nice box and the Shand Morinos were the sound of a nation... the dance band sound, that is. Hey, maybe a well orchestrated visit to Scotland might just help you find a great accordion.

There's a Shand Morino for sale in London right now. £1500

 

[Walker]

Just caught up with this--Ha, picking only 3 would be nigh impossible! i've had super-nice bisonoric B/C bisonorics but have returned to CBA and PA for just about any genre. I listen to some selected classical stuff but have no interest in playing classical music on the accordion--it's really mostly world roots/trad/folk genres that grab me for accordion. I don't like big, heavy instruments and don't need or want one.

So, if we're talking wish lists, I'd like one of the few very nice Italian made 3-voice LMM CBAs that are more compact, like the dimensions of a 30/72 or 30/60 PA, and about 15-16 pounds. Saltarelle and Castagnari offer them and I'd love to have a Bourroche or Magica, but the prices are eye-watering. Most other Italian LMM CBAs are 96 bass, taller, and heavier, and I'm not going there. Perhaps I'll have to split my Italian CBAs in two and switch between a compact LM for tango/klezmer/Balkan and a compact MM for Irish/Scottish/musette/French swing. In PAs I like 30 and 26 key Italian MMs and 26-key Italian LMMs. Eventually I'll probably find my way to a very nice 30/72 LMM PA by Beltuna or Serenellini or such, but there's no rush.

In short, no yearnings for Golas, Prestige Leaders, or any of the Refrigerators. i get a kick out of reading people go on about them here, but you couldn't pay me to lug one around. I see it dawned on Phil Cunningham-- he has some very nice compact PAs.

I'd also like a very nice MMM 72 bass or 60 bass but not super wide for wetness. I like somewhere between 9 and 12 cents-ish.

Yup, I know the type of instrument you mean... I've played some Saltarelle piano models -, Clifden etc. Very nice. I think they have a really good sound, but I prefer them with 96 bass (or even 80 bass - without the diminished row) instead of 60/72 bass. They'd be great for many types of folk styles in the UK, USA etc.

The piano key versions with 35 keys are interesting because they have that quirky low "D" note at the top (chin end) before the first G. It could be fun making drones on some tunes but I don't entirely see the necessity for it when you have bass notes to create drones with. Maybe it's for finishing with a double-stop effect on some tunes.

 

[OuijaBoard]

What a very small world! When my brother and I ( living in Los Angeles) first became interested in traditional Irish music, we would go to the sessions at Des Regan's pub. Even though we were complete novices and really had no idea what we were doing, Des was super encouraging and supportive. We became proficient enough to form a band. The video you linked was taken at The Grand National Irish Fair. The first time we attended it was at Devonshire Downs, then moved to The Equestrian Center in Griffith Park, and then moved to The Rose Bowl. Our group, Reel to Reel, played at the fair during the years it was at Griffith Park. There were several music stages and one year we were on a stage where we were on rotation with Mick Moloney, Robbie O'Connell, and Jimmy Keane. Des opened a bigger pub and that is where I saw Joe Burke perform. His pubs were in North Hollywood and Bubank if I recall correctly. The photo is the band I played with, circa 1987. The Guerrini accordion in the photo is the same accordion in the video I posted: https://www.accordionists.info/threads/20-tuning-on-four-accordions.11938/#post-121723

Yep, Des said he used to bring Joe Burke over for residencies at the pub, just to have an accordion crony from Galway, and "The Music" to hang with for company. I knew Des after the pub, he ran a session for many years at the Moose Lodge in Burbank. A couple of years before Des passed away, we were at Willie Clancy Week at the same time, and at Joe's invitation Des played in the accordion recital performance, in duo with Joe's wife Anne Conroy Burke (another wonderful B/C accordion master). It was grand to see.

 

[Xiane]

There's a Shand Morino for sale in London right now. £1500

Where's that, if you don't mind? Not London, I've been there, the accordion?

Ah, I think I've found it. Now...the decision. And worse, the shipping.

I could probably lean on a friend to go pick it up for me, if they won't ship it.

 

[OuijaBoard]

That's interesting! What a great opportunity for you. There's a lot more showband and dancehall stuff you can do with the Big Shand.

To be honest, I'm not a showband person at all, and never have gone to an Irish Fair because a lot of what's performed at them tends to be showband or trad-rock. I do like traditional dance music, but I'm doing it on CBA and PA. But Des Regan was both a trad guy and a showband guy, and it's not an exaggeration to say he and his showband were regionally beloved in the community (a dwindling one, sadly) that enjoyed that type of dancehall music.

One time I was buying snacks to contribute while on my way to the weekly Sunday sesh led by Des. What I was buying must have had some Irish tie-in--Barrys tea or scones or something. Either that or I had my accordion case with me in the store. Because in the checkout line this guy struck up some chitchat about either the accordion or the snacks I was buying, and I told him I was on my way to play in an Irish session led every week by this accordion player from Ireland named Des Regan.

And the guy just lit up. A total stranger. His eyes almost filled with tears. He said that Des Regan and his showband played for this guy's wedding to his wife, and it was one of the most magical days of their lives, and how they'd never forget it. And how Des had given so much joy, fun, and happiness to so many people in the regional Irish community.

Interesting factoid: John Lydon aka Johnny Rotten, grew up in one of London's poor Irish neighborhoods, and is the son of a Galway immigrant who played accordion in showbands!

 

[Xiane]

To be honest, I'm not a showband person at all, and never have gone to an Irish Fair because a lot of what's performed at them tends to be showband or trad-rock. I do like traditional dance music, but I'm doing it on CBA and PA. But Des Regan was both a trad guy and a showband guy, and it's not an exaggeration to say he and his showband were regionally beloved in the community (a dwindling one, sadly) that enjoyed that type of dancehall music.

One time I was buying snacks to contribute while on my way to the weekly Sunday sesh led by Des. What I was buying must have had some Irish tie-in--Barrys tea or scones or something. Either that or I had my accordion case with me in the store. Because in the checkout line this guy struck up some chitchat about either the accordion or the snacks I was buying, and I told him I was on my way to play in an Irish session led every week by this accordion player from Ireland named Des Regan.

And the guy just lit up. A total stranger. His eyes almost filled with tears. He said that Des Regan and his showband played for this guy's wedding to his wife, and it was one of the most magical days of their lives, and how they'd never forget it. And how Des had given so much joy, fun, and happiness to so many people in the regional Irish community.

Interesting factoid: John Lydon aka Johnny Rotten, grew up in one of London's poor Irish neighborhoods, and is the son of a Galway immigrant who played accordion in showbands!

That's a great story, too. I think maybe the world was better when people went out dancing more to live music. When I was young in Texas, it was perfectly possible to go dance to traditional Czech and German music every weekend for a nominal admission, and of course, some great Czech sausage made by the Czech Club members. Also, the "set up", which is a very thrifty way to drink.

I'm not interested in the showband aspect, exactly. But I'd like to have more versatility regarding basses, and more versatility regarding chords, while ALSO sticking with what I'm learning.

And then there's the historic aspect of the Shand Morino, and the fact that while I'm mostly playing Irish music, with an Irish B/C teacher, I'm pretty much Scottish by ancestry (with the usual American "everything else" of course, too). So it appeals in a lot of ways.

 

[dak]

And then there's the historic aspect of the Shand Morino,

Morino was a builder. If someone had the cash or notoriety for it, he'd special-construct something meeting their purpose. The Shand Morino is a double rarity in some respect because it did not stay a one-off but was produced in small series. The instrument I play myself is a Morino that didn't make it into series. It's not impossible to get a Shand Morino, but I don't think the opportunity will arise all that often. And kept in good shape, it is not likely to lose value or become too "dated" to be desirable beyond an exhibition piece.

 

[Xiane]

Morino was a builder. If someone had the cash or notoriety for it, he'd special-construct something meeting their purpose. The Shand Morino is a double rarity in some respect because it did not stay a one-off but was produced in small series. The instrument I play myself is a Morino that didn't make it into series. It's not impossible to get a Shand Morino, but I don't think the opportunity will arise all that often. And kept in good shape, it is not likely to lose value or become too "dated" to be desirable beyond an exhibition piece.

I appreciate the thoughts. That's what I was thinking as well.

There's a fun video series from a young Scottish player I've linked here, speaking on the Shand Morino. He's from the same town in Scotland as Shand, and is playing one of the accordions in front of Shand's statue in what looks like the town park. It's delightful.

 

[dak]

and is playing one of the accordions

If I understand the narration correctly, he is rather playing number one of those accordions, not just any of them.

 

[Xiane]

If I understand the narration correctly, he is rather playing number one of those accordions, not just any of them.

Oh, wow, I missed that detail. That's VERY cool. To me anyway. That particular accordion, then, belongs in Scotland, right where it is. It also deserves to be played.

 

[Pipemajor]

Where's that, if you don't mind? Not London, I've been there, the accordion?

Ah, I think I've found it. Now...the decision. And worse, the shipping.

I could probably lean on a friend to go pick it up for me, if they won't ship it.

Yes it's in the outskirts of South London, near Croydon.
It's about 40 miles from me.
If you're really interested I would be happy to go and give it the once over.
It does seem a very good price.
I don't play BCC# but CBA C system which is sort of similar.
If this interests you, send me a private message.

 

[Propulsas]

It sounds simple but really isn't. First I tune the dry M reeds so they are very close to perfect. (On a 41 key PA that means roughly within 0.5 cents around A4 (second A), then within 0.3 cents around A5 and as close to 0 (maybe 0.1 or 0.2) at the highest A.
I write down the desired tremolo. If the goal is say 10 cents at A4 then I add about 0.3 cents for every note (half-tone) below that, ending at around 13.6 at A3 and staying at that value for lower notes. Then I subtract (starting at 10) 0.25 cents for every note above A4 until I reach 7 cents tremolo at A5. Then I subtract 0.2 cents for about 6 notes, then 0.15 for the next notes... and I try to get the tuning as close as possible to the resulting values (ending with about 4.75 cents at A6).
Then the hard work starts: I start listening to the MM register, and write an up or down arrow with each note that has too little vs. too much tremolo to my ears, and I make corrections and repeat until everything sounds just right. You cannot do the final tuning just with a tuning app, because it doesn't matter too much what the app says, the notes have to sound right. The sound is highly influenced by the reed block each reed is on (the black keys may require just a touch more or less than the surrounding white keys to blend well together).
The general rule of thumb is that for each octave higher the tremolo in cents goes down to something between 2/3 and 3/4. (I use 0.7 as an approximation). It depends a bit on the taste of the player if they want the tremolo to go down more or to go down less as the notes go higher. So far, when it sounds right to my ears the owners of the accordions have all been happy. (And they get back to me with messages telling me how nice the tremolo sounds, so it's not just a matter of being polite when they collect the accordion.)

So if the initial variation is 15 cents at A4 do the amounts added and subtracted for every other note remain the same?

 

[debra]

So if the initial variation is 15 cents at A4 do the amounts added and subtracted for every other note remain the same?

The amounts added or subtracted do not remain the same. The ratio (percentage) remains the same.
So when an accordion with 10 cents at A4 goes down by 0.3 cents up to A5 (to reach 7 cents there) an accordion with 15 cents at A4 goes down by 0.45 cents up to A5 to reach 10.5 cents there, etc. It's simple math (but I do know that simple math is far from simple for many people).

 

[Propulsas]

The amounts added or subtracted do not remain the same. The ratio (percentage) remains the same.
So when an accordion with 10 cents at A4 goes down by 0.3 cents up to A5 (to reach 7 cents there) an accordion with 15 cents at A4 goes down by 0.45 cents up to A5 to reach 10.5 cents there, etc. It's simple math (but I do know that simple math is far from simple for many people).

Thanks for the excellent clarification.

 

[mtj]

The amounts added or subtracted do not remain the same. The ratio (percentage) remains the same.
So when an accordion with 10 cents at A4 goes down by 0.3 cents up to A5 (to reach 7 cents there) an accordion with 15 cents at A4 goes down by 0.45 cents up to A5 to reach 10.5 cents there, etc. It's simple math (but I do know that simple math is far from simple for many people).

Can you explain the math?

If I understand correctly going from A440 to A880 drop the number of cents by 30%? Naively I would expect a 50% drop

What ratio stays the same?