Old vs New

[Hilobox]

Please tell me why. I have a newish Bravo III 72, and a 1990 Polverini c30 which looks and plays like new. But I really prefer my 70 year old aluminum Hohner Marchesa and the tiny plastic Hohner Starlet. I like the feel and dynamic range of the Marchesa and the delicate musette of the Starlet. Maybe because the latter two are old like me. I have no accordion-playing history. Do accordions really have distinct personalities that some just prefer one over another? Sorry for taking up everyone‘s time. Thanks.

 

[Perogie]

No apologies necessary, great topic.

I'm sort of the opposite, I have two old (50s-60s) accordions with more bells and whistles than my new 48 bass "cheap" E Soprani I bought new but the new little box has much a pretty wet musette that I almost always pick that one up when I want to jam out a tune. There's plenty of reasons it should be my least played accordion but I consistently enjoy it the most even with its limited range and set of reeds.

 

[Mr Mark]

I have had and worked on several different eras of Hohners over my relatively brief time in the accordion world; and can definitely say I prefer the 30's era over all of them.

The new ones feel the least qualitative of the bunch - very good in terms of appearance but seemingly lower quality materials inside and standard of building.

I really am not a fan of the aluminum bodied ones - too many issues with new ideas at the time not working out (rubber grommets and weird latch system that messes up reed valves if not careful opening and closing).

Your Marchesa era are pretty good but alas no configurations that I like (My Tango IIB being a 34/80 is my favourite - next up is my Verdi II 34/80).


There are definitely distinct differences in the different eras of production that are relatable to social conditions of the time that will have affected the manufacturing process. For me I think the older models have a real hands on feel in this regard before major large scale mechanized manufacturing took over - and there is no substitute for hands on craftsmanship that way.

YMMV.

 

[Hilobox]

No apologies necessary, great topic.

I'm sort of the opposite, I have two old (50s-60s) accordions with more bells and whistles than my new 48 bass "cheap" E Soprani I bought new but the new little box has much a pretty wet musette that I almost always pick that one up when I want to jam out a tune. There's plenty of reasons it should be my least played accordion but I consistently enjoy it the most even with its limited range and set of reeds.

I’m a total sucker for the musette sound. It brings images of sidewalk cafes. That’s why I bought the Bravo, as it was the only one in the store I that had that sound (I didn’t know the term yet) like when I played the organ with a Leslie, or the sound of the human voice. That’s the only reason I like the Starlet so much. Thank you so much for your response.

 

[Hilobox]

I have had and worked on several different eras of Hohners over my relatively brief time in the accordion world; and can definitely say I prefer the 30's era over all of them.

The new ones feel the least qualitative of the bunch - very good in terms of appearance but seemingly lower quality materials inside and standard of building.

I really am not a fan of the aluminum bodied ones - too many issues with new ideas at the time not working out (rubber grommets and weird latch system that messes up reed valves if not careful opening and closing).

Your Marchesa era are pretty good but alas no configurations that I like (My Tango IIB being a 34/80 is my favourite - next up is my Verdi II 34/80).


There are definitely distinct differences in the different eras of production that are relatable to social conditions of the time that will have affected the manufacturing process. For me I think the older models have a real hands on feel in this regard before major large scale mechanized manufacturing took over - and there is no substitute for hands on craftsmanship that way.

YMMV.

Thank you. The Italian C30 is beautifully made inside and out. It was obviously made with great care even though an entry model, kind of like our 1959 Lancia Appia. The reeds have great pureness of tone, but I feel pretty unemotional playing it. The 2013 Bravo is beautifully finished in black, but when I opened it up to remove a metal crumb from a reed, it also had sawdust inside and the edges of the reed blocks were never even sanded. Haven’t needed to open up the Marchesa, so I can’t comment on its interior build. i think the aluminum case may contribute to its (to me) powerful sound. Not a mellow sound, ha. I started playing in my late sixties, so nostalgia plays no role. Mahalo again for writing your thoughts.

 

[Ikesaccordions]

Please tell me why. I have a newish Bravo III 72, and a 1990 Polverini c30 which looks and plays like new. But I really prefer my 70 year old aluminum Hohner Marchesa and the tiny plastic Hohner Starlet. I like the feel and dynamic range of the Marchesa and the delicate musette of the Starlet. Maybe because the latter two are old like me. I have no accordion-playing history. Do accordions really have distinct personalities that some just prefer one over another? Sorry for taking up everyone‘s time. Thanks.

Chinese reeds, made in a hurry, in the case of the Bravo. In ye olden days there were many more good reeds made.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Chinese reeds, made in a hurry, in the case of the Bravo. In ye olden days there were many more good reeds made.

I believe it's Czech reeds in the Bravo PAs and Nova CBAs. Whether they're set and voiced well might be another story. But I think those are Czech reeds similar to those in the smaller Weltmeister folk-size unisonorics.

 

[Dingo40]

but when I opened it up to remove a metal crumb from a reed, it also had sawdust inside and the edges of the reed blocks were never even sanded.

This reminds me of an incident a long time ago.
I had left an ancient, two-voiced Busilacchio PA 41/120 for repairs with a local, well-regarded accordion sales, repairs and music school business.
The job was accepted by a new to the business technician in his early fifties.
Eventually, I collected the accordion and went about my business: all good.
Then, one day, I opened up the bellows to look around inside.
Imagine my surprise when I discovered a cigarette packet's worth of cigarette ash inside the bellows!?
It was obvious the bellows had been used as an ash tray during the three weeks they'd been at the workshop!
It's hard to get good staff!

 

[Hilobox]

This reminds me of an incident a long time ago.
I had left an ancient, two-voiced Busilacchio PA 41/120 for repairs with a local, well-regarded accordion sales, repairs and music school business.
The job was accepted by a new to the business technician in his early fifties.
Eventually, I collected the accordion and went about my business: all good.
Then, one day, I opened up the bellows to look around inside.
Imagine my surprise when I discovered a cigarette packet's worth of cigarette ash inside the bellows!?
It was obvious the bellows had been used as an ash tray during the three weeks they'd been at the workshop!
It's hard to get good staff!

There really has to be a joke in there somewhere! Aloha.

 

[debra]

The preference for a certain amount of tremolo is very personal. You may love or hate an accordion just for the amount of tremolo it has.
But of course that can be changed to your liking. The trouble is, when the accordion does not have the tremolo you like, how can you explain to a technician what the tremolo should be so that you will love it?
I have done a fair bit of tremolo tuning, and so far I have been quite good at guessing what the owner really wants. On one occasion a lady had gone to two different tuners already and still didn't like what her (expensive) accordion (with cassotto) sounded like in the MM register. When she came to collect the accordion from me she was in tears of joy of how it sounded. Different people ask for different tremolo, even on the exact same accordion model. Everything is possible, but whether you get what you want really depends on what you specify or guess it should be.

 

[dak]

The preference for a certain amount of tremolo is very personal. You may love or hate an accordion just for the amount of tremolo it has.
But of course that can be changed to your liking. The trouble is, when the accordion does not have the tremolo you like, how can you explain to a technician what the tremolo should be so that you will love it?
I have done a fair bit of tremolo tuning, and so far I have been quite good at guessing what the owner really wants. On one occasion a lady had gone to two different tuners already and still didn't like what her (expensive) accordion (with cassotto) sounded like in the MM register. When she came to collect the accordion from me she was in tears of joy of how it sounded. Different people ask for different tremolo, even on the exact same accordion model. Everything is possible, but whether you get what you want really depends on what you specify or guess it should be.

The last tuner on my big instrument made noises at the phone and let you describe what you'd rather have. He wasn't one to take "cents" for an answer. And if you were dissatisfied, he invested another few hours. He was a retired factory final tuner. And if you think that the constant time pressure this position must have meant made him do shoddy work, think again. He is probably tuning harps where he is now.

 

[Glug]

Probably time to reference this again:
I had lost the link but it's worth checking periodically to see if my ears have changed

 

[debra]

Probably time to reference this again: ...
I had lost the link but it's worth checking periodically to see if my ears have changed

It's a nice attempt at demonstrating tunings and their application. Too bad the accordions they use in the demo have not recently been tuned precisely so the tremolo is a bit "all over the place" instead of exactly what they pretend to demonstrate...
Maybe your ears have changed for the better and you can now hear the deviations from what was intended...

 

[Alan Polivka]

This reminds me of an incident a long time ago.
I had left an ancient, two-voiced Busilacchio PA 41/120 for repairs with a local, well-regarded accordion sales, repairs and music school business.
The job was accepted by a new to the business technician in his early fifties.
Eventually, I collected the accordion and went about my business: all good.
Then, one day, I opened up the bellows to look around inside.
Imagine my surprise when I discovered a cigarette packet's worth of cigarette ash inside the bellows!?
It was obvious the bellows had been used as an ash tray during the three weeks they'd been at the workshop!
It's hard to get good staff!

A 4/5 Soprani that I acquired had several pieces of straw or grass inside the bellows. I suspect it might have been used to smuggle something at one time ... possibly when imported.

 

[Perogie]

The preference for a certain amount of tremolo is very personal. You may love or hate an accordion just for the amount of tremolo it has.
But of course that can be changed to your liking. The trouble is, when the accordion does not have the tremolo you like, how can you explain to a technician what the tremolo should be so that you will love it?
I have done a fair bit of tremolo tuning, and so far I have been quite good at guessing what the owner really wants. On one occasion a lady had gone to two different tuners already and still didn't like what her (expensive) accordion (with cassotto) sounded like in the MM register. When she came to collect the accordion from me she was in tears of joy of how it sounded. Different people ask for different tremolo, even on the exact same accordion model. Everything is possible, but whether you get what you want really depends on what you specify or guess it should be.

I would love to hear how the tremolo/musette tuning is done.

 

[Glug]

A 4/5 Soprani that I acquired had several pieces of straw or grass inside the bellows. I suspect it might have been used to smuggle something at one time ... possibly when imported.

Reminds me of the old joke about donkeys:

A man crosses the border each morning on a donkey and each day, his donkey is loaded with only bags of straw. When he reaches the bridge marking the border, the tax collectors search his bags to calculate what duty he must pay on his exports. Every day, they find nothing. And yet, in the evening, after their shift has finished and they are in the tea houses or restaurants in the city, they see the same man spending lots of money and boasting that he is in fact a smuggler and that no one can catch him.
Every day, incensed at his bold claims, the tax collectors obsessively search his bags of straw. They sift the straw, cut it into pieces, rip open the fabric of his bags, attempt to burn the straw, check his hat, his beard and even cut open his shoes in the hope of finding coins between the leather. And yet, each evening, he is seen back in the city growing ever more prosperous and ever more brazen, even offering to pay for the tax collectors meals and drinks while continuing to tell stories of his wily smuggling. The tax collectors continue their futile interrogations of the straw bags for years, to no avail.
This continues until, now a prosperous man, the smuggler moves away to another city and settles down to enjoy his wealth. Years pass and one day, in the market, one of the retired tax collectors meets his old foe and asks,
'Mister, many years have passed: I am no longer a tax collector and we are just two old men. Please, you can tell me, what was it you were smuggling all that time?'
The smuggler replied, 'Donkeys.'

 

[debra]

I would love to hear how the tremolo/musette tuning is done.

It sounds simple but really isn't. First I tune the dry M reeds so they are very close to perfect. (On a 41 key PA that means roughly within 0.5 cents around A4 (second A), then within 0.3 cents around A5 and as close to 0 (maybe 0.1 or 0.2) at the highest A.
I write down the desired tremolo. If the goal is say 10 cents at A4 then I add about 0.3 cents for every note (half-tone) below that, ending at around 13.6 at A3 and staying at that value for lower notes. Then I subtract (starting at 10) 0.25 cents for every note above A4 until I reach 7 cents tremolo at A5. Then I subtract 0.2 cents for about 6 notes, then 0.15 for the next notes... and I try to get the tuning as close as possible to the resulting values (ending with about 4.75 cents at A6).
Then the hard work starts: I start listening to the MM register, and write an up or down arrow with each note that has too little vs. too much tremolo to my ears, and I make corrections and repeat until everything sounds just right. You cannot do the final tuning just with a tuning app, because it doesn't matter too much what the app says, the notes have to sound right. The sound is highly influenced by the reed block each reed is on (the black keys may require just a touch more or less than the surrounding white keys to blend well together).
The general rule of thumb is that for each octave higher the tremolo in cents goes down to something between 2/3 and 3/4. (I use 0.7 as an approximation). It depends a bit on the taste of the player if they want the tremolo to go down more or to go down less as the notes go higher. So far, when it sounds right to my ears the owners of the accordions have all been happy. (And they get back to me with messages telling me how nice the tremolo sounds, so it's not just a matter of being polite when they collect the accordion.)

 

[Perogie]

@debra

Physically or functionally speaking, is tremolo an additional vibration on the reed itself or a difference in tone between two reeds playing simultaneously?

 

[dak]

It sounds simple but really isn't.

I lean towards getting myself tuning tools for keeping the tuning of my instrument in reasonable shape. I trust myself to do a reasonable job (more benefit than damage at low reed damage) with the straight notes. I have nightmares about the tremolo (3-reed shallow almost but not quite "Schwebeton"). It is warm and voluminous in the L reed ranges, a notch too bright for my taste in the M reed (inside of the staff) range, and of a brilliant piccolo/pipe quality in the H range (that's what you get with a 62 note range). Correcting what went off since the last tuning while staying mostly in character and retouching the middle range for a bit more mellowness: that I actually don't trust me to get right. It requires a solid grasp of the big picture and I am more one for the myopic detail.

 

[dak]

@debra

Physically or functionally speaking, is tremolo an additional vibration on the reed itself or a difference in tone between two reeds playing simultaneously?

A "tremolo" is a variation in loudness of a tone, and the superposition of two sine waves with same amplitude and slightly different pitch leads to a sine curve with the arithmetic mean of the given frequencies beating with a frequency that is the difference of the given frequencies (there is some fine print involved here, but that's basically it). That doesn't really tell the story about the (abundant) overtones and about a 3-reed tremolo (you usually want different deviations above and below the main reed so that the mean frequency of above and below tremolo reed does not beat excessively slowly or even synchronized with the main reed). But at the core of the term "tremolo" is a beating character of the fundamental pitch of a note.

Organ tuners use a fixed (and rather low) cent detuning for the "Unda Maris" register, but accordions use a variable curve depending on the pitch, with fewer cents (but still more Hertz) deviations for higher pitches.