The Giulietti Sound

[snavoyosky]

Interesting!
Was the citation series anything special? Different reeds, better quality. I have one with the citation badge and it’s a very nice accordion.
Closest thing I could compare would be excelsiors van Damme 730/930 with the 2 bassoon options?
And I live in western ny state.

The Citation was the tone chamber version. Chambers require a better reed response. The Citation was a New York City production. That van Damme model was Italian production. The difference is appreciable in favor of the Citation.

 

[debra]

You're preaching to the choir on this one. The tone chamber has nothing to do with the cause of extended range for some players rather than use the M reed line. It has to do with the entire range needed to project the orchestral balance. L is better equipped to execute that scenario.....even though key extension is not vital. If you notice, those who seek to extend their keyboard are one of two player types.......Those doing Bach works....and those usually playing in the C tonality. But its really unnecessary for the true professional player.

Additionally. I'm glad you now understand why I always negated a tone chamber in my instruments and why I had Excelsior back in time to locate my reeds in the fashion I expressed previously (L in the center with H at each side).......plus utilizing a Masonite foundation instead of aluminum foundation plate...for a more alive resonant sound quality. Many accordion listeners believed I had a tone chamber from the results.

I do play a lot of Bach... but I see that the extended range towards the higher notes is used a lot by jazz players. One of the few who did not use an extended keyboard was Frank Marocco who just used a standard 41-key keyboard. Most jazz players do need the high (B and C) notes quite a bit (and have accordions going from low G up to high C, thus sacrificing a few notes on the low end in order to get the high notes). But indeed Bach players need high notes too, especially as some violin parts go up that high. That's true for classical music as well. I am glad to have button accordions going up to the even higher E and one going up to G. And yes, I use all of these notes.
The Excelsiors I looked at did have an aluminium soundboard, but on the bass side something other than the traditional leather was put on top. Sadly it was a material that became a bit sticky over time, making it harder to remove reed blocks.
Recently I worked on an old Ballone Burini bass accordion, which has a wooden soundboard. (No aluminium at all.) It has a very nice warm sound (much nicer than my Pigini bass accordion).
I understand the idea behind wanting the L reeds in the center and H at the sides. That's good for the L reeds, but sadly not for the H reeds because one bank is toned down by the register mechanism while the other sounds very directly. That's why I have placed a strip of felt under the front side of the grille: to tone down these reeds more or less as much as the opposite end is toned down by the register mechanism. I have done that for some other people and they were always happy with the resulting change in the sound. I very much like the sound of a cassotto, but I also like that because the cassotto is under the register mechanism all the reeds not in cassotto have their sound coming out evenly, without any obstacles in the way.

 

[Ventura]

still, if I were an empirically minded but quality control freak Master of a factory...

i would invest in laser cutting reed tongue technology
individually length ground reed-tongues to pitch tolerance dimension based on research
high precision magnetics
laser cutting reed tongue mounting holes
precision Robotics machined Duraluminum plates
precision Robotics riveting
and the shape of the reedtongues, since we have laser control over both the
steel and aluminum would not be Rectangle or trapezoid, but Coffin shaped

i want Laser for everything so as to completely eliminate metal distortion
and any loss of strength from Cutting, Drilling, hammering..

i think i would still use Aluminum for the plate, for superior dimensional stability and
strength, but i would use aluminum with a bonded thin layer of Copper
as is done in other industries, with copper shutters rather than aluminum
the shutters would have steel grommet re-inforcements to the shift linkage

the bodysections nearest the Bellows and holding the plates and reedblocks
i would like to experiment with woods that can be routed for the entire depth
and shape, or a modern Manmade material that could be Cast or eventually
even 3d-Printed to a router-comparable tolerance

then i would wake up and make some Coffee and try and remember what i was dreaming about

 

[Tom]

still, if I were an empirically minded but quality control freak Master of a factory...

i would invest in laser cutting reed tongue technology
individually length ground reed-tongues to pitch tolerance dimension based on research
high precision magnetics
laser cutting reed tongue mounting holes
precision Robotics machined Duraluminum plates
precision Robotics riveting
and the shape of the reedtongues, since we have laser control over both the
steel and aluminum would not be Rectangle or trapezoid, but Coffin shaped

i want Laser for everything so as to completely eliminate metal distortion
and any loss of strength from Cutting, Drilling, hammering..

i think i would still use Aluminum for the plate, for superior dimensional stability and
strength, but i would use aluminum with a bonded thin layer of Copper
as is done in other industries, with copper shutters rather than aluminum
the shutters would have steel grommet re-inforcements to the shift linkage

the bodysections nearest the Bellows and holding the plates and reedblocks
i would like to experiment with woods that can be routed for the entire depth
and shape, or a modern Manmade material that could be Cast or eventually
even 3d-Printed to a router-comparable tolerance

then i would wake up and make some Coffee and try and remember what i was dreaming

You should be in charge. Too bad there's not enough market for these investments.

 

[Walker]

The reeds made by Elio Guidobaldi have a ‘flute’ sound and that was done by reed design. Technology will never produce reeds like these, because machinery can’t see and think, nor have that feel for adjusting to conditions.

@snavoyosky Where can such an accordion with flute like voices be found in this modern world? Name names... an accordion with such pure a tone must be simply magnificent. Or do I need to look for an old Titano or Giulietti....

 

[snavoyosky]

@snavoyosky Where can such an accordion with flute like voices be found in this modern world? Name names... an accordion with such pure a tone must be simply magnificent. Or do I need to look for an old Titano or Giulietti....

For what you seek means going back to times when tuners could manipulate reeds in various ways. For now, I would direct you toward a used Giulietti like the Giulietti Artist model. Petosa is having Giulietti's built but they are not the same. It's merely another scheme to sell a 'name brand' to unknowing people.
Like everything you've read that I wrote, it all goes back to design and know-how. Handmade reeds can be made by knowers and doers but there still the nonknowers and doers out there. It's like your doctor. He's still a doctor whether he graduated at the top or bottom of his class.
It takes a keen eye to evaluate a reed and tell what it's going to do, so I can't tell you what to look for. I wish I could do that for you but there too many variables. I've seriously been thinking about doing a thread on handmade reeds of the past with its many designs made...for purpose.....and workable too. Today all you see are machined reeds. Repeat: All you see today are machined reeds..........punched out from harmonic steel plates....rarely from a steel ribbon. Calling a reed 'handmade' doesn't make it so.

Now I've declared recently that reeds don't make the sound in those accordions. But they do affect the sound quality which is what I would introduce if I decide to write about them. Guido Guidobaldi was a fantastic reed maker.......none finer and if you spy his name on a reed...grab it and run. Its reeds like his that crooked accordion repairmen swipe and replace with inferior reeds to the unknowing. We have ne of those birds over here in USA. And he did it to a fellow who believed his work and advertised highly about him...and yet he denied that he did not switch...even when Aldo Mennacini (sp?) attested that they were not the same reeds he originally installed for the gent.

Walker, sorry for dabbling a bit but look for the Giulietti Artist if you are really serious about wanting that quality.

 

[Walker]

Thank you for such a complete answer. Giulietti it is! By the way, I admired the music of Stephen Dominko, a wonderful musician and Giulietti man. Did you know him?

When we talk of the special 41/120 Giulietti, I always immediately think of the Classic 127. The internals were furnished in more mahogany than a bankers boardroom, utterly beautiful.

Steve, for fun, let me name some vintage accordions from the 1950s & 1960s. Assuming all were pristine, what is your order of preference? Is there anything you would dismiss or add?

Hohner Gola 414 (early 1960s)
Scandalli Super VI (circa 1960s models with 11 bass switches and bass separator)
Sonola SS20
Titano Royal
Giulietti Classic 127
Excelsior Symphony Grand Citation series. (1950s, USA)
Guerrini Superior 2

Thanks again.

 

[snavoyosky]

Thank you for such a complete answer. Giulietti it is! By the way, I admired the music of Stephen Dominko, a wonderful musician and Giulietti man. Did you know him?

When we talk of the special 41/120 Giulietti, I always immediately think of the Classic 127. The internals were furnished in more mahogany than a bankers boardroom, utterly beautiful.

Steve, for fun, let me name some vintage accordions from the 1950s & 1960s. Assuming all were pristine, what is your order of preference? Is there anything you would dismiss or add?

Hohner Gola 414 (early 1960s)
Scandalli Super VI (circa 1960s models with 11 bass switches and bass separator)
Sonola SS20
Titano Royal
Giulietti Classic 127
Excelsior Symphony Grand Citation series. (1950s, USA)
Guerrini Superior 2

Thanks again.

I met Dominko once. He made the accordion come forth from those so-called "accordion caves" to public view on TV and introduced by Leonard Bernstein. For those here reading this, be sure and go to U Tube and place his name and watch Dominko work a Chopin piece with the NY Philharmonic. The accordion needed such exposure and it needs more exposure like this doing material that will accepted by the educators. The accordion's stigma needs to be erased and only the player can do this.
Walter, I used to visit various music stores and record shops.....walk the aisles an observe what genre was most prominently displayed and downward from there. There is a good indicator of what's happening to our music culture.
So you liked the Classic 127. Did you ever try the companion to that model...the Orchestra model? Both were made by Nilux. I was partial to the Orchestra because it was LMMM and non-chambered. Great balance. Same bank and boardroom.

So you want me to list my druthers. But I have some privy info with some and not for others. I may surprise you (and me). I've tested most of them. And my session demands were varied calling for different boxes.
So here it goes:
Excelsior Symphony Grand Citation series. (1950s, USA)
Guerrini Superior 2
Scandalli Super VI (circa 1960s models with 11 bass switches and bass separator)
Hohner Gola 414 (early 1960s)
Giulietti Classic 127
Sonola SS20
Titano Royal

I took time and reviewed some of the reeds in them which may or may not have been the originals. So that affected my selection.

As a side comment, I was reluctant to select some whose reeds I viewed because I knew I wouldn't care for their speaking. f they ae recent reeds then it appears that the Russian sound is overtaking that subtle sound. Perhaps due to more wanting the out-of-tune musette sound.
Now I'm wondering about the ones whose reeds I didnt see.

 

[Verismo]

As promised to Dingo, FFingers and
Here is the first installment of thir requested accordion brand sounds

Years ago when I was in Florida I received an email from a fellow from the Netherlands by the name of Sander Neijnens who spent considerable time searching for me from time to time....trying all email addresses as he found them. This time it worked and we made contact. He was a Giulietti lover and owner and had decided to write a book on the Giulietti Accordion sound and he searched for me because of my close connection with Julio Giulietti as a friend and accordion designer and whatever else he thought. We had several email discussions before he requested and received from me all the information he seeked and included most everything we discussed in is book...enough to also include an article on me as I wrote it, and my relationship with Julio and his family. The main topic of his interest was the question of the Giulietti sound being different from other accordions. As with many, his focus was on the reeds only.

I stumbled on this information looking for something else in my files,,,,and thought you would appreciate reading a few contents from the book. It’s really a 95 page book with an included CD by various Giulietti artists. If you are interested in acquiring it, it’s labeled THE GIULIETTI SOUND by Sander Neijnens © 2008 ISBN: 978-90-805424-6-4

Sanders begins his book………..
“Much love went into those instruments”
At the beginning of December 2007 I start another search for Steve Navoyosky. In one of my
searches I discover an email address that I don’t know yet. Immediately I write a new request
for information about Julio Giulietti and within a couple of hours I get a reply. In the following
days a lively correspondence starts up.
Steve Navoyosky (b. 1935) started playing the accordion when he was four years old. But in his music college years he learned how to play other musical instruments, like the piano, clarinet, and eventually the organ, vibraphone, saxophone and oboe. While working as a studio session musician and music teacher, his main activities comprised of arranging and composing.
Subsequently, near the end of his performing career, he opened a store for the selling of accordions and related materials as well as the repair, tuning, and building of accordions. Steve Navoyosky and Julio Giulietti already knew each other for a long time before their first ‘face-to-face’ meeting in the beginning of the 1980s, resulting in a long lasting friendship based on their shared love of the accordion. “Before he took over his father’s company in 1950, Julio worked as a professional accordion player in New York City, using ‘Dark Eyes’ (Charles Magnante arrangement) as his theme or opener. Based on this experience he was after certain things that he had desired as a musician.
Keep in mind he was a reed maker and understood the properties involved in developing a design and specifications that granted a specific sound. When he took over the company he spent considerable time investigating the factories to develop what he had in mind. Serenelli was the first. And John Molinari was one of the first accordionists to play this instrument. But Julio wasn’t satisfied with the quality, so after some years he changed to Zero Sette. That factory had skills unlike any other in Italy. Julio won the NAMM Fashion Award in 1953 for the design of an instrument built by them.
The Giulietti sound is mainly due to the quality of the reeds. The reeds made under the watchful eye of Elio Guidobaldi were excellent. But the reeds for the cheaper models were still high quality. The reeds made by Elio Guidobaldi have a ‘flute’ sound and that was done by reed design. Technology will never produce reeds like these, because machinery can’t see and think, nor have that feel for adjusting to conditions. It’s things like this that make the Giulietti accordions what they are. Much love went into those instruments and they became the Cadillac of the industry. But Julio was a good businessman so he also stayed friends with other factories.
Besides Zero Sette there were Nilux, Brandoni and Guerrini. Nilux for instance built the Classic127 and the Orchestra models.”
A very special model is the four reed Traviata. The design of this instrument was based on accordions from the 1930s with knurled keyboard ends and decorated with rhinestones. The tuning also differs from the other Giulietti’s: the three reed musette is unique for this model. Steve Navoyosky advised Julio Giulieti to build this model for polka players. Afterwards a likewise, but cheaper, model was introduced named the Polka King. To end with, there are the instruments that were made for the accordion orchestra. These instruments don’t have a bass mechanism, but only a keyboard. They were made in a range of Bass, Cello, Clarinet, Violin and Piccolo.

As stated previously, Giulietti introduced the accordion with the free bass in the United States in 1960. Guido Guidobaldi told me that the system was inspired by the Russian bayans, that already had the free bass for some time. Steve Navoyosky tells me that there was also another example.
“I have a photograph of an Italian accordion made about one hundred years ago with the stradella bass plus three rows for the free bass. Julio also owned such an instrument. Whereas the Russian bayan could transform from stradella to free bass, Julio brought back the stradella plus three rows previously established at the turn of the century. Furthermore the lower basses were placed on the top of the instrument and the higher ones on the bottom, while they are situated just the other way around on the bayan. Julio did so, following advice from the Danish accordionist Mogens Ellegaard to the accordion manufacturers, who felt this reversal would
ease the low note playing.
It was difficult to maneuver when you had to use the free bass on these instruments as your hand had to go farther and bend at the wrist. And there wasn’t a companion method book developed, so the accordionist who bought one was left to learn it. But in my opinion the biggest mistake was the reversal of the free bass range compared to the bayan, for it became illogical to sight read music in the opposite direction of the music before you, especially when playing two notes or more.
In the 1970s came the transformer models as well as the models with just the free bass. I
designed for instance the ‘Italia’, a mahogany wood housing student model with five rows of free bass following the Russian system. The colors of the treble piano keys – and the bassetti buttons – were reversed, to distinguish the instrument from the accordion with the stradella basses. Julio spoke with the Italian government to have Zero Sette build two hundred of them in order to elevate the manufacturing factories in Italy, with these bassetti’s going to California and given to young students in accordion schools. Julio’s plan was to stimulate interest in the bassetti without purchase cost, but the government negated the idea, so this model was never built.
Unfortunately, there appeared to be no demand for the other models with ‘just’ free bass. Julio always said that to build so many beginners bassetti’s was a big mistake. On many of these instruments the free bass sections were later on replaced with stradella bass sections, so they could still be sold.
While sales continued to dwindle, Julio never gave up trying to convince anyone he met that the accordion was the greatest instrument for it could do so much and be a part of any musical venue. But down deep he was hurt over the decline of it and music in general. As I would be encouraging toward the future in closing our discussions, I felt his hurt whenever he answered ....‘Let’s hope so’.
Around 1990 Julio asked me to take over the company. He wanted to continue the Giulietti spirit and drive to make the best accordion possible, but I had to decline. The family made the offer this time when Julio was sick, but after scrutinizing the situation once more, I had to decline again. My reasons were based on my ongoing business as a musician, arranger, composer and educator. And I had my mother to take care of in her declining years. Furthermore the remaining stock was not conducive for future sales for it consisted mainly of small free bass accordions.

Besides that Julio had stocked new instruments with dealers, but he didn’t have an inventory. I would have to do my own inventory and I would have to make my own deals with Zero Sette and the dealers. So, I made the decision in the light of the times.”

That Giulietti sound I promised you? Yes, the reeds do provide their portion to the sound but it's mostly connected to the design of the treble section.....and the woods used and the resonance created by the body. Consider this: If you placed those reed blocks on a studio bellows......and sounded those reeds......would they sound like a Giulietti accordion?

More on this brand sound later with Excelsior, Dallape', and the other requested by my curious friends...........

Thank you so much for sharing this. Is there a way to communicate with you privately?

 

[knobby]

Thank you so much for sharing this. Is there a way to communicate with you privately?

@Sally L you can send him a private message.

 

[Verismo]

@Sally L you can send him a private message.

Would that be under "start a conversation"? I don't see any option that says "send private message." Thank you!

 

[Henry D]

Yes Ma'am- click on the envelope icon to the right of your screen name in the header bar portion and start away with whichever member you wish to.

 

[Verismo]

Yes Ma'am- click on the envelope icon to the right of your screen name in the header bar portion and start away with whichever member you wish to.

Thank you!

 

[mtj]

As I wrote before part of the characteristic Giulietti sound comes from the design of the grille, which has a large oval cutout but is otherwise closed. This grille design works very well for cassotto accordions as it allows the sound coming from the cassotto to resonate even more under the grille while the sound from the reeds not in cassotto to come out more directly. Sadly this design doesn't work so well for accordions that have no cassotto. They have the reeds for the white keys under the open oval of the grille and those for the black keys under the closed part (and the register mechanism, creating an uneven timbre between white and black keys.

Perhaps you could clarify as I don't know that I agree. I have a Continental F.4.T which is not a cassotto, but I think sounds pretty good. It's the bassetti with the extra six buttons on the lower end. I don't know the unevenness you describe. I would have liked to have the cassotto version, but at the time my teacher did not have one. Later he got one that was the same as mine but cassotto and I thought of upgrading but I didn't care for the sound. I thought the clarinet and/or flute had kind of haunting sound I did not care for. Then later he got a Super Continental (the one with the separate three rows for the free bass) which was a cassotto and that sounded pretty fantastic. Comparable to the best accordions I have heard. I would have been inclined to upgrade to that one, except it was heavier and I already didn't like the 28.5 lbs of mine and would have been a lot more expensive.

I don't have either your breadth or depth with accordions and accordion design, this only being my second, and I always enjoy your explanations. That notwithstanding, that's my experience.

 

[debra]

Perhaps you could clarify as I don't know that I agree. I have a Continental F.4.T which is not a cassotto, but I think sounds pretty good. It's the bassetti with the extra six buttons on the lower end. I don't know the unevenness you describe. I would have liked to have the cassotto version, but at the time my teacher did not have one. Later he got one that was the same as mine but cassotto and I thought of upgrading but I didn't care for the sound. I thought the clarinet and/or flute had kind of haunting sound I did not care for. Then later he got a Super Continental (the one with the separate three rows for the free bass) which was a cassotto and that sounded pretty fantastic. Comparable to the best accordions I have heard. I would have been inclined to upgrade to that one, except it was heavier and I already didn't like the 28.5 lbs of mine and would have been a lot more expensive.
...

Many people don't notice the effect of the grille (with oval cutout) on the sound because it makes the sound different of the black keys versus the white keys and somehow people think it's normal for the sharps and flats to give a bit of a different sound (whereas in fact, in our well-tempered tuning there should be no difference other than frequency). I have made people hear the difference and once they hear it they cannot later "unhear" it. Interesting how our brain works...

 

[Ben-jammin]

SNavoyosky, I have a white Giulietti F94 (I think that’s the model) that I think you may have worked on at some point. It had previously belonged to a polka band leader that used to play it with the grill off. I understand that the treble reeds may have been swapped at some point. It’s probably not the best example of the Giulietti sound but it is definitely loud.

 

[snavoyosky]

SNavoyosky, I have a white Giulietti F94 (I think that’s the model) that I think you may have worked on at some point. It had previously belonged to a polka band leader that used to play it with the grill off. I understand that the treble reeds may have been swapped at some point. It’s probably not the best example of the Giulietti sound but it is definitely loud.

I know the instrument quite well. Kept it in shape per his request for every important venue which that band worked. The polka leader was Frank Stanger and he bought that accordion from Mario Mosti. Mario changed the reed set to a better set because that's really a student line instrument with student line reeds initially. Mosti basically changed the reed set because the original set was LMMH and he rebuilt the blocks to accommodate a set of handmade LMMM.
Stanger liked the light weight and that sound after he removed the grill, being a Slovenian and a polka/waltz lover. Mosti had stripped the instrument of its brand and labeled it a Mosti Box claiming it was his brand. Stanger never knew it was a Giulietti until he described removing the grill which definitely confirmed it to be a Giulietti. Stanger arrived at my store for a tuning and since this was a first time together, we talked various tuning results and he described his desires. He soloed a polka to give me an idea of his style and voicings and we went from there. So the tuning I placed was for it to be basically the loudest it can sound....which he wanted.
Unfortunately, Mosti tuned reeds by grinding and gouging which was evidenced by the inspection I made. Future tunings of mine incorporated means to restore the original appearence of at least, the external tongues.
I don't recall whether Mosti changed the bass reeds but I suspect he didn't because polka players care not on their sound...... and Stanger just wanted his treble side pristine for jobs.

 

[Ben-jammin]

Thanks so much for the information. Some of what you say explains the logo being on the bass side with a piece of celluloid where a logo or name may have once resided on the treble side.

 

[snavoyosky]

Thanks so much for the information. Some of what you say explains the logo being on the bass side with a piece of celluloid where a logo or name may have once resided on the treble side.

Mosti removed the G emblem from the treble front or a nameplate. On the bass side is where he placed "Mosti Box"...which I removed and placed the Giulietti name brand. That brand name I placed was only to be used for professional models and top of the line models.
This is the first time I saw that grill. Ah yes, Mosti seemed to enjoy drilling holes in grills with a 3/8" drill bit.

BTW, that's not an F-94. It's an F-115.....top of the student line originally.