Treble Voices: 4 or 5?

[Siegmund]

I think the register switch layout is tied, in part, to the use of the instrument.

1) only makes sense if you never need individual selection of the middle reeds --- either dry tuned and you just choose 0,1,2, or 3 middle reeds on, or symmetrically tuned and you always turn M- and M+ on and off together.
2) makes a fair bit of sense if you have LMMH dry tuned and one M+ reed, and the switch basically converts between a dry accordion and a tremolo accordion. But does occasionally still require two switch presses to make a change.

3)... I think 25 (or 30 or 31) is just too many. Really I think 11 is too many. If I were designing a register mechanism from scratch, I'd provide an on-off switch for each reed bank, and a row of 5 or so programmable presets, like those buttons we had on our car radios 50 years ago. (The mechanics of a programmable button are easy enough; organs have had them forever.)

 

[debra]

Take heart Jerry, to be fair the "accordion" register is pretty convincing.

So here's a question for anyone...

When it comes to registers on five voice accordions I have noticed three particular styles:

1. A straightforward selection of 13 to 15 switches

2. A selection of say 13 switches, arranged like for a LMMH accordion, but with two additional switches that engage or disengage the 5th voice, thereby giving 13 x 2 = 26 choices.

3. A selection of 25 individual switches.

Any thoughts about the three different mechanisms?

I lean towards the third option a bit...

The Bugari 5 voice accordions we had (285/ARS and later also a 505/ARS) had 15 registers. Most of the unavailable voice combinations you would never miss. But for instance there is no register to select LM+H which would be useful if M+ is actually dry-tuned (which it wasn't on mine).
The Morino 5 voice accordions I have seen only offer M or MMM and no registers with MM. That's where option 2 comes in: not with 2 switches but a single small slider switch, to engage/disengage the third M voice. Different accordion manufacturers offer the option to have such an extra switch. Sometimes they offer two switches, an on and an off switch. I have seen this mostly on LMMHQ accordions (Q meaning Quint).
The selection of 25 or more individual switches is rare. (Some Hohner Imperator V accordions have it, and some older Giulietti accordions for example.) This is most useful on accordions with a non-standard set of reed banks, like LLMMH.

 

[JerryPH]

When it comes to registers on five voice accordions I have noticed three particular styles:
1. A straightforward selection of 13 to 15 switches
2. A selection of say 13 switches, arranged like for a LMMH accordion, but with two additional switches that engage or disengage the 5th voice, thereby giving 13 x 2 = 26 choices.
3. A selection of 25 individual switches.
Any thoughts about the three different mechanisms?
I lean towards the third option a bit...

Well, at this level, my take is that the accordion should be to a good level of quality, and if you are going to sound, Cassotto is almost a must. That said, variety is nice to have and if we are the kind of musician that likes to use different registers (believe it or not, there are some that do just limit themselves to 1-2 registers of the possible 11 or 13), it adds a lot. My Imperator does not have 25 but does have 22:


I know that the Imperator VS has even more registrations at 29 total, but then that starts to go towards the "quint" sound, and I am definitely not a fan of that tone at all. When playing this accordion, I find myself playing a bit more with the registrations and enjoying the different tonal qualities, something that I do less with the Hohner Morino and it's 11 registrations.

 

[EMan]

A number of years ago(7-8), I purchased a 5 voice Borsini, used but in great condition from Liberty in PA. When I first picked it up and played it, I couldn't get over how beautifully it sounded with that extra reed block. The additional sound "wore off" quickly once I had to start picking it up at home and on gigs to play it. For me, the weight was not the major issue(I have always played gigs standing up), it was the center of gravity due to its size. It was just not comfortable . In addition, the reach to get to the left hand buttons was further (again, due to its size) and became uncomfortable after short periods of playing it.

So, last yr I bought the 288 Gold, Bugari and I sold the Borsini. I hated to see the Borsini go, as it really was a great sounding accordion, but it was just too uncomfortable.

 

[Vladimir M.]

I know that the Imperator VS has even more registrations at 29 total, but then that starts to go towards the "quint" sound, and I am definitely not a fan of that tone at all.

Yes, this is more suitable for fans of the organ sound. The set of register switches on the Hohner Imperator VS is as follows:




Best regards,
Vladimir

 

[Walker]

it was the center of gravity due to its size

I agree, the Achilles heel of the five voice instrument is its depth. Compared to a 4 voice, double cassotto accordion, often 19cm to 20cm in depth, a 5 voice, double cassotto accordion is typically around 22cm in depth. However, there is a degree of variation as some instruments like the Scandalli Air V is stated as being 21.5cm deep. Instruments from some other manufacturers are stated as being around 22.5cm to 23cm deep.

For me, if the 5 voice accordion is at the lower end of depth measurement, say 21.5cm to 22cm, I think it could be worth it for the additional spectrum of tones, basically it's a musette & organ-tone accordion rolled into one... but then I would not choose to play a five voice instrument standing up.

However, to put it into perspective, many high-end, free bass accordions are around 23.5cm and some are even stated as up to 24.5cm in depth. That makes a 21.5cm instrument seem pretty reasonable, especially if it is 12.5kg or less.​

Yes, this is more suitable for fans of the organ sound. The set of register switches on the Hohner Imperator VS is as follows:




Best regards,
Vladimir

Thanks for sharing the Imperator VS details. It is a commanding instrument indeed! (though it is still the 'little bro' of the 6 voice Dallape Liturgical accordion, developed by Mr Dallape and his technician Giovanni Gola in the early 1940s). Nevertheless, that regiment of organ-tone couplers on the Imperator is very impressive, but as we say in Scotland (well my family does anyway) its 'neither use nor ornament to me' - where's the musette switch?.​

 

[JerryPH]

developed by Mr Dallape and his technician Giovanni Gola in the early 1940

Just some unknown upstart technician... lol
The Dallape Liturgical... that has to sound awesome!

 

[Vladimir M.]

...6 voice Dallape Liturgical...

Just some unknown upstart technician... lol
The Dallape Liturgical... that has to sound awesome!

...in the early 1940s...

Sirs, please excuse me, but i think that this information is considered "funny" from the today´s angle of the view, and that´s no the right way. In those days, the accordion was not yet established in conservatories and academies, the concert playing of the melodic bass was in its infancy. At that time, there was a tough fight for the acceptance of this instrument in the music public and in the field of classical, "serious" music. Giovanni Gola was then young beginner.
More information here: https://zzmusic.uk/news/claudio-beltrami-restores-the-dallape-liturgical-accordion/
Photo of the Dallape Liturgical: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/c6/e9/dac6e925060f7978256db1871281bda1.jpg

Best regards, Vladimir

 

[Walker]

@Vladimir M. Honestly, there is nobody making fun of the Dallape Liturgical accordion here. Also, there is nobody with greater admiration for Dallape accordions that me. I have met Claudio Beltrami a number of times and he along with Amleto Dallape restored my own Gola some years ago. I also know my friend Jerry considers Giovanni Gola to be the greatest accordion builder in history. Perhaps, with respect, you have misinterpreted the comments .​

 

[Vladimir M.]

Hi,

Perhaps, with respect, you have misinterpreted the comments.

Yes. I´m so sorry....

Best regards, Vladimir

 

[Walker]

@Vladimir M. thanks for sharing the written story and photograph, it really gives context to the Liturgical accordion.

 

[JerryPH]

I was making fun of the comment that Giovanni Gola was called a technician… indeed Stewart saw and understood my joke. No harm done, nothing to apologize for.

Thanks for sharing the links.

 

[JerryPH]

Bringing this thread back to life, now that I have accordions with "a few" registers and the standard 11, 15 and 22 registers of the Imperator, I can say that sound quality is likely more important, but that aside for the moment, I am feeling that 11 registers on a 4/5 or 5/5 should be the minimum. I really continue to prefer the 5/5 sound, though there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 4/5!

In terms of the number of registers, I will say that more is better from the point of view of variety and sound possibilities. My Morino with 11 registers does what it was designed to do and it is focused more towards classical music, so the registrations are not overbearing. The Beltuna with it's 15 registers goes harder in the musette area and has a register that is even a touch too hard for my tastes but sounds great used with chords.

The Imperator with 22 non-repetitive registrations offers the greatest variety of sounds and so is the most versatile, BUT it lacks the (let's call it) "hard core musette sound", sticking to the Hohner tradition of keeping away from the more robust musette sounds. So even with 22 registers it lacks what other accordions (ie: the hard musette sound of the Beltuna), have with fewer registrations!

There is also an Imperator VS with *29* registrations, but after playing one I can promise you that it has fewer "playable" registers than my Morino... lol That quint sound is downright annoying (The TIGER accordion which used a similar concept did the quint sound better justice than the Imperator VS, less harsh. I find that sound just offensive to my ears!).

So, while I still lean towards the "more is better" camp, it really depends on the more of "what" you are getting. Again, personal preference time, in terms of variety, the 22 options Imperator V is super hard to beat, the 15 registrations on the Beltuna are just pure sweetness especially the organ and musette registers, and the 11 of my Morino... again, when I put it on, I don't miss any registrations, I always get that "coming home" feeling and love it's sound traits and register choices, though they are quite basic.

Each has advantages that the other one doesn't but in terms of discussing sonic variety and versatility, the Imperator V is my first choice in #1 spot followed by the Beltuna and last the Morino.

Incidentally the Imperator and Beltuna both have that "sordino/amplisound" switch that sonically hide the sound of that 5th reed set, in effect turning your 5/5 in to sounding a lot like a 4/5, so even more bonus registrations.

Looking at my opinions, no 4/5 has really entered in to my favorites list yet and If asked to choose just one and sell off the rest of my accordions, man, I would be seriously hard pressed to make the choice, but 100% that lone accordion would be a 5/5.

 

[Ffingers]

For someone with limited experience - please define “quint” sound.
The timbre created by 5 reeds four octaves apart?

 

[JerryPH]

For someone with limited experience - please define “quint” sound.
The timbre created by 5 reeds four octaves apart?

In particular registers, it sounds as if it is off tune... for example one of the reeds is at a high 2-2/3 or the low bass sounds like a 1/4 tone off. Some like it, some like me, are not big fans of that kind of sound.

 

[Neil Thornock]

The Petosa Cathedral accordions have quint register that functions like a true 2-2/3 organ stop, as opposed to the low 5-1/3 of the Tiger. From the demo videos it’s subtle but effective, very organ-like. If I had my pick, it would be one of those LMMHQ Petosa instruments.

 

[Valski]

So here's a question for anyone...

When it comes to registers on five voice accordions I have noticed three particular styles:

1. A straightforward selection of 13 to 15 switches

2. A selection of say 13 switches, arranged like for a LMMH accordion, but with two additional switches that engage or disengage the 5th voice, thereby giving 13 x 2 = 26 choices.

3. A selection of 25 individual switches.

Any thoughts about the three different mechanisms?

I lean towards the third option a bit...

Hello,

It's amazing to know that a lot of people have a collection of many accordions and although it's understandable it's never been my practice or preference. That said, there is a lesson that I learned in first year university economics called Marginal Utility; the first of anything that you purchase is very useful, think of a loaf of bread but each subsequent purchase has a diminishing value. Perhaps the first loaf purchased each day is very important and the 100th less so. Applied to accordions, the first or main instrument is very important and each subsequent one is less useful since you can only play one at a time.
We can apply this principle to registers because it's highly likely that you'll only use a handful of the 23 available to you as you pointed out in your posting and it's very probable that you might rarely or never use some of these. I purchased my FR8X specifically because it had 41 or so different accordion styles and 120 orchestral styles and love my purchase but have discovered that it's the Richard Noel styles that really make me happy and only use a few of those.
No judgment here but it might be best to get a selection of switches that you really want and will use. If your budget is unlimited get one of each!

 

[Neil Thornock]

Hello,

It's amazing to know that a lot of people have a collection of many accordions and although it's understandable it's never been my practice or preference. That said, there is a lesson that I learned in first year university economics called Marginal Utility; the first of anything that you purchase is very useful, think of a loaf of bread but each subsequent purchase has a diminishing value. Perhaps the first loaf purchased each day is very important and the 100th less so. Applied to accordions, the first or main instrument is very important and each subsequent one is less useful since you can only play one at a time.
We can apply this principle to registers because it's highly likely that you'll only use a handful of the 23 available to you as you pointed out in your posting and it's very probable that you might rarely or never use some of these. I purchased my FR8X specifically because it had 41 or so different accordion styles and 120 orchestral styles and love my purchase but have discovered that it's the Richard Noel styles that really make me happy and only use a few of those.
No judgment here but it might be best to get a selection of switches that you really want and will use. If your budget is unlimited get one of each!

As an owner of one accordion I can say that it is the most important accordion I own

 

[Ventura]

it depends a lot on where your head is

and what songs it wants to be ABLE to play

now the 5th Quint as per the Tiger, well obviously this was
during Rock and Roll, and trying to compete in this genre
where Guitarists played power chords (root and 5th) rather than
full chords, (which required a bit more musicianship ? perhaps)

but hey, it works and fits the bill

now with a sophisticated Accordion with many selections and
possibilities, especially MIDI accordions and the Rolands,
of course if you are just noodling around amusing yourself
mostly these multitude of registers and purchased "sets"
may give you happiness, but for me it is absolutely song driven

so this Italian register i have been working on for example..
each of the 14 shifts is named with the song i intend to play
with the crafted tone (in fact, the name placeholder for each
register in the reeds setting has the song title abbbreviated)

maybe the registers will have use beyond this, with other songs,
maybe not.. thats OK.. i can make more !

i COULD live with these 14 registers and play many many songs,
but i wouldn't want to.. i would rather tailor the available sounds
to suit the songs as closely as possible.. which may mean a
French souinding accordion goes with me to one gig, and
a Jazz sounding one to another AT MiNIMUM

at Maximum, a Roland with perhaps 48 different unique
registers specifically created by me for the 48 or so songs i have
in my setlist for an important gig

looking back through my archive, you would find Roland registers for
a wide variety...
Venus
Dancing Queen
Con te Partio
Heidi
Bamboleo
Arranauez
Walk like an Egyptian
Tuesday Afternoon
Black Magic Woman
Take 5
Chattanoogah ChooChoo
Besame Mucho

get the idea ?

MY registers must fit my SONGS,
not the other way around

your mileage may vary, but i invite you to try this perspective

and actually, if you extend this thought process, it is the difference
between how many of you are delighted with the Roland Drawbar
editing and making of presets, but people like me find it irrelevant,
because the only use for ME with Drawbars is being able to grab
a few and move them during a Song, because that is what the song NEEDS
nay DEMANDS of the musician

 

[Tom]

it depends a lot on where your head is

and what songs it wants to be ABLE to play

now the 5th Quint as per the Tiger, well obviously this was
during Rock and Roll, and trying to compete in this genre
where Guitarists played power chords (root and 5th) rather than
full chords, (which required a bit more musicianship ? perhaps)

but hey, it works and fits the bill

now with a sophisticated Accordion with many selections and
possibilities, especially MIDI accordions and the Rolands,
of course if you are just noodling around amusing yourself
mostly these multitude of registers and purchased "sets"
may give you happiness, but for me it is absolutely song driven

so this Italian register i have been working on for example..
each of the 14 shifts is named with the song i intend to play
with the crafted tone (in fact, the name placeholder for each
register in the reeds setting has the song title abbbreviated)

maybe the registers will have use beyond this, with other songs,
maybe not.. thats OK.. i can make more !

i COULD live with these 14 registers and play many many songs,
but i wouldn't want to.. i would rather tailor the available sounds
to suit the songs as closely as possible.. which may mean a
French souinding accordion goes with me to one gig, and
a Jazz sounding one to another AT MiNIMUM

at Maximum, a Roland with perhaps 48 different unique
registers specifically created by me for the 48 or so songs i have
in my setlist for an important gig

looking back through my archive, you would find Roland registers for
a wide variety...
Venus
Dancing Queen
Con te Partio
Heidi
Bamboleo
Arranauez
Walk like an Egyptian
Tuesday Afternoon
Black Magic Woman
Take 5
Chattanoogah ChooChoo
Besame Mucho

get the idea ?

MY registers must fit my SONGS,
not the other way around

your mileage may vary, but i invite you to try this perspective

and actually, if you extend this thought process, it is the difference
between how many of you are delighted with the Roland Drawbar
editing and making of presets, but people like me find it irrelevant,
because the only use for ME with Drawbars is being able to grab
a few and move them during a Song, because that is what the song NEEDS
nay DEMANDS of the musician

Hope we get to try that Italian set....hint, hint....