Which instrument to choose to play Classical Music

[JerryPH]

Not sure what you are referring to... as none of these videos are of women playing a bayan.

Oh really? Did you miss the video of Lidia Kaminska playing a Zero Sette Bayan? It was just under that paragraph you quoted.

In previous videos, Kaminska describes her accordion as a Bayan, Zero Sette themselves calls that model a Bayan, and if you watch the video, you can tell it has all the outward traits of a Bayan (Lowest notes at the bottom on the left hand, B-flat tuning, etc...).

 

[debra]

Not sure what you are referring to... as none of these videos are of women playing a bayan.

Oh really? Did you miss the video of Lidia Kaminska playing a Zero Sette Bayan? It was just under that paragraph you quoted.

In previous videos, Kaminska describes her accordion as a Bayan, Zero Sette themselves calls that model a Bayan, and if you watch the video, you can tell it has all the outward traits of a Bayan (Lowest notes at the bottom on the left hand, B-flat tuning, etc...).

Hmm... maybe this is turning into a discussion about what makes a bayan a bayan after all...
The problem with advertising is that when you call a duck an eagle often enough at some point people start believing it despite the duck still just being a duck. Not trying to give a value statement here. The Zero Sette (made by Bugari) CBA is a very nice CBA but both Zero Sette and Kaminska calling it a bayan does not make it a bayan. I still call it a CBA.
In my book (but I know some people will disagree and thats fine) a characteristic of a bayan is the use of large multi-note reed plates, and reeds that are more towards being rectangular whereas accordion reeds are more trapezoidal (but in the lowest and highest notes they are mostly the same shape on both a bayan and a cba).
Being a bayan does not mean it has to be B-system and must have russian B-system melody bass (lowest notes at the bottom). It is a matter of instrument and reed construction. There are more typical bayan traits, like the lowest octave (or actually 14 notes) always playing LM and the higher notes being LL. On a CBA that has LL you can play LL down to the lowest notes. (There may be a switch to emulate the bayan behavior, and some bayans may be an exception too.)
More subtle differences are in the sound too: I can hear when in M register you move from the first (aluminium) reed plate to the second (brass) one and the timbre becomes sharper. This happens around the high G. There is indeed typical bayan tuning which is just not quite straight, unlike typical CBA tuning that is completely straight. But there are exceptions too, with bayans tuned completely straight and bayans tune with tremolo (like mine, which is also C system).
The only way to really turn a CBA into a bayan is to replace the Italian reeds by Russian ones. There are images of this being done on a Jupiter site, and there is also a Ukrainian repair guy who does this. I know of some Pigini players who actually had the reeds replaced (either all of them or just on the bass side).

 

[TomBR]

Thanks for the detailed and interesting reply Paul.

So "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." - but bear in mind it may not actually be a member of the Anatidae family. Some people may hear the subtle difference in the quack!

 

[debra]

Thanks for the detailed and interesting reply Paul.

So If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. - but bear in mind it may not actually be a member of the Anatidae family. Some people may hear the subtle difference in the quack!

Good comparison. In my opinion its more that like both lions and tigers being big cats but they are really not the same and some people even cross-breed them creating a liger or tion.
When the Italians build what they call a bayan it looks like a bayan, it doesnt quite feel like a bayan (it actually feels better, with better mechanics) and it doesnt quite sound like a bayan either. But some people think that looks alone are enough to think its the same thing.
I have an AKKO bayan. I have also played on a friends Pigini Sirius bayan. They are really not the same type of instrument. Im not judging which is better or worse. But they are not the same. Not a big difference in how to play: they are the same shape and size. The mechanics on the Pigini are possibly a bit better (even though its an old Sirius). The sound is really different. It is not a subtle difference in the quack!

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that a bayan has all of the reeds in one register on a single metal plate, which gives it a sound that has more high frequencies than that of an accordion.

Please also correct me if I'm wrong about Lidia Kaminska. Some years ago, IIRC, she was also able to master the bandoneon and plays it in concert with a tango orchestra, in addition to playing classical music on her 35-pound Zero Sette. I'm wondering what she'll do next ...

 

[donn]

Please correct me if Im wrong, but my understanding is that a bayan has all of the reeds in one register on a single metal plate, which gives it a sound that has more high frequencies than that of an accordion.

Youre wrong! Well, to be honest Ive probably cited that as a distinctive trait in the past, and in any case Im no expert and going only surmise and supposition, but 1) I have recently read that multi-reed plate isnt unknown in other types of accordions, and 2) I bet a quarter youd never be able to hear the difference, since the reed plate isnt really an acoustically active part of the instrument.

On the other hand, the traits Paul mentions above - rectangular vs. trapezoidal reeds, configuration of lower voices etc. - do seem apt to make for a distinctively different sort of accordion. (Unfortunately, we cant reasonably say that a bayan is not a type of accordion, so I guess the alternative is some not very satisfactory term like Italian accordion.)

 

[debra]

My experience with my Pigini bass accordion which has the 3 lowest L-register octaves on multi-reed plates and higher notes on individual plates is that indeed the fact that multiple reeds are on a single plate does not lead to a significant difference in sound. (I cannot hear that difference.) Also, there is a nice video: <YOUTUBE id=GhTLYNjxRYE url=></YOUTUBE> that shows replacing the multi-reed Italian plates in a Vignoni accordion by multi-reed Russian bayan plates. What a difference that makes to the sound! Its not the reed plate that makes the difference, its the reeds (combined with the resonator).
The statement all of the reeds in one register on a single metal plate is also wrong: the bayan has 3 reed blocks for a register, and on the side of a (keyboard-side) reed block there are at least 2 and sometimes 3 plates. A single register thus has the reeds on 6 to 9 plates altogether. The highest notes are on a brass plate and are more trapezoidal. The lower notes are on an aluminium plate and are more rectangular. You can clearly hear the difference in sound at the transition from the first reed plate to the second. When someone plays a chromatic scale in say the M register I can tell from that transition whether it is played on an instrument with Russian bayan plates or a CBA with Italian reeds. General differences in timbre can be a result of differences in construction of the box but the clear sudden change in sound around the high G, jumping from the first to the second reed plate is enough for me to identify in a blind test whether its a cba or a bayan.
Nothing really wrong with either. I really like the CBA instruments I have (and I am lucky to have several nice ones) and I also really like my bayan.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Thanks, guys!

 

[craigd]

I think Paul's advice is excellent, if your ambition is the full classical repertoire at the most advanced level. But great classical music can be played on a standard 41/120 stradella machine. And if it's of high quality, the tone chamber won't be missed much either, as is the case in these videos.

 

[ArtMustel]

If it's not 4 bayans then is not bayan

 

[Alan Sharkis]

From a very interesting article, which Im sure many will have seen before at
http://www.ksanti.net/free-reed/essays/back7.html

It matters not a hoot that your accordion weighs thirty pounds or twenty pounds (or in the case of the plastic fantastics sixteen pounds). The actual weight of the instrument has absolutely nothing to do with the ease of playing the instrument or getting injured. Provided, however, that you play the instrument in its proper playing position which is sitting down. What most people dont realize (obviously doctors and some manufacturers), is that in the sitting position the accordion weight rests on the thigh or thighs, thereby relieving all the actual weight from the shoulders or neck. There is absolutely no additional strain or compromise placed on the neck, shoulders or the spine when played in an energy efficient upright position.

However, for those of you who stand to play the reverse is true. Unless you are an entertainer, like Dick Contino or Myron Floren, whos solo presentation on stage is part of the show, there is no reason that one should stand. You dont see pianists standing to play to enhance their musical presentation. Why should an accordionist stand? It is a difficult enough instrument to master without creating physical and painful distractions by having the instrument hang off the shoulders and strain the neck and low back. The accordion is balanced nicely in the sitting position with the player assuming a position which is relaxed, upright and energy efficient. The number of accordionists I have seen professionally who have serious neck and shoulder problems over the years is considerable. Almost without exception, they are the performing, standing players. If you want to shorten your playing career, stand-up.

I know a few accordionists who play in restaurants and stroll. They must stand. One was using a Roland FR-8x and quickly switched to a 4x when it became available. But when he does a jazz gig, he uses an acoustic and is seated. He’s played classical pieces in his day, and again, seated.

As for me, I’m just an amateur. I always play seated. The only time the weight of an accordion matters to me is when I have to carry it.

 

[oldbayan]

When there is a will, there is a way! This girl was 12 on this video, playing classical music on a 61-note Bayan!

 

[craigd]

I think Paul's advice is excellent, if your ambition is the full classical repertoire at the most advanced level. But great classical music can be played on a standard 41/120 stradella machine. And if it's of high quality, the tone chamber won't be missed much either, as is the case in these videos.

Do the above videos, played on a 41/120 stradella, no tone chamber, pass muster with you classical accordion afficionados? I'm interested in your critique of the playing, technique, instrument on these videos.