Which free bass system?

[Rosie C]

I am sure there are as many opinions as forum members, but having realised my Roland can do free bass, I'm thinking to try free bass.
Mostly I play folk tunes, and Stradella works great for those. But at Christmas I have a couple of carol singing gigs where free bass may be better - last year I played bass lines on the root and third bass rows as I wasn't skilled enough to do the chords.

Anyway, any suggestions as to which of these is more common, more suited to a beginner, more suited to traditional church music?

 

[Henry D]

I would think that any would work for you if you practiced them and got used to them.

Personally, the quint (fifth) arrangement is quite useable (for me) since I already had the pattern down from the Stradella. The chord rows just become repeats of the root and counterbass top two rows offering you three full octaves.

I find chords pretty straightforward with this system. It has a secondary salutary effect- your use of the normal Stradella bass/counterbass rows will probably be enhanced.

If you really intend to go for a full melody line in the bass one of the chromatic arrangements might work more fluidly with the passage of time and experience- but the quint seems to be up to the challenge of most music.

As with so many aspects of musical instrument playing, "It's what you're used to that feels best."

And one can get used to almost anything....

 

[Ventura]

another way to look at it is just to want the easiest
reachable setup that gives you more than an octave
so that when you run bass lines they can continue
logically in the up or down direction for pitch

so even typical 3 rows of bass is enough as long as the extra row
is an octave offset. the reach for solo notes seemed so
natural to me when i had that 140 bass Scandalli during my youth..
bass, counterbass, second counterbass

there was a MIDI system that watched which direction your bass
line was being played and switched octave up or down to
anticipate your next move.. Eddie Montiero had one

 

[tcabot]

"Thirds" fb (Bayan, C, B)come in 3-row and 4-row varieties. I found them quite clunky to use - you need a lot of up & down movement with your left hand that's already loaded with bellows action. 4 is definitely better than 3, but it's nothing to write home about in terms of ergonomics.
MIII is probably the least appealing system - big, bulky and needing a huge finger reach, but you avoid the costs and mechanical complexity (breakability) of a converter.

Quint - is pretty good. It's got the same layout as Stradella and lateral hand movement is not required as you move up and down across the 6 rows, not along them. The only problem with it is that it's very hard to do chromatic runs (diatonic runs are great though). I don't expect chromatic runs in church music, right?
If you play PA that's probably the only system available in a used, reasonably priced box.

8-row Moschino is by far the best and the most incredible fb, but moschino boxes are only made from unobtainium, so good luck getting one.
6-row moschino and closely related Kusserow system is still better than thirds, but noticeably worse than 8-row moschi. Also unobtainable.

Try them all, try playing scales & arpeggios, see what you like.

By the way, I've got a cheap lightweight quint converter box for sale right now

 

[Rosie C]

Thanks all for your replies. As my free time is in short supply at the moment I'll just dive in and try the "quint" option.

I'm not looking for a full melody in the L/H, rather to do a simple bass line. For last year's carols (although my Hohner failed and I only performend one!) I knew I wasn't up to playing complex bass/chord patterns, so instead I just played bass notes - e.g. rather than jumping to a B or F# chord, I just played the bass note on the counter row. It looks like quint will allow me to build on that approach.

& @tcabot you are right - no chromatic runs needed!

 

[EdBouchard]

I’m not a fan of the quint system. Of the five free bass systems I’ve tried over the decades, quint, Khuel, Moschino, Geraci, and CBA, I much prefer a CBA free bass, either C-system or B-system.
Got interested in free bass a long time ago. Sometime in the mid-1960s, I got a copy of the Palmer Hughes book with arrangements of Bach compositions for Stradella — including a Prelude and Fugue.
While hitting the switches to play a melody line in the bass was awkward, it showed how great Bach compositions sounded on an accordion. It gave me the free bsss bug.
A year or so before that, when I still taught at Lo Duca Bros in Milwaukee, it might have been Tommy LoDuca who gave me a quint PA to try out. My teacher, Carl Elmer didn’t approve. He said the low notes “sounded like elephant farts”.
I gave it back.
In searching for a free bass, I begin asking around. Someone told me to talk to Charles Nunzio. I had never met him before, but when I visited his studio, he lent me an accordion with the Khuel system free bass. There might have only been one or two that were ever made. As I recall, the buttons columns were chromatic low to high from top to bottom and a 4th apart. It was somewhat like fingering on a double bass. The system made sense. But I didn’t like the tone of the free bass.
When I asked Vince Geraci for advice, he loaned me the magnificent Bell accordion that was custom made for him. I hardly knew him, but he had been a judge in a couple competitions in which I played. It was a tiered free bass system, with short piano-like keys, also probably a 4th apart. But I’m not sure. There were 2 problems. One I didn’t practice it enough to get close to mastering that system. Two, the treble side had the best tone of any accordion I’ve ever heard. But, like the Khuel and the quint, the bass side was on the harsh side.
When I brought it back to Vince, he looked very disappointed. I felt very bad to learn he died just a few weeks later. I didn’t know he had a terminal illness.
I also visited both Mario Moschino and Julio Guiletti. Guilietti had the 3-row C-system CBA button keyboard across from the Stradella. I definitely had the best tonal balance, but reaching across the Stradella keyboard seem likely to be awkward.
I wound up purchasing the Moschino system from Mario. Not sure entirely, but I didn’t practice it very much. Although the tonal balance twixt treble and bass was okay, the bass side still sounded harsh to me.
Plus there were no free bass teachers. Not sure of the date, but around 2000 I heard that Stas Venglevski was in Milwaukee. I scheduled a lesson, brought the Moschino. Stas strongly advised me to investigate a converter free bass, either B- or C-system.
Upon looking, soon found used PA with a C-system converter free bass made by Castagnari.
The Castagnari had by far the best tonal balance of any free bass accordions I had tried until that point. There is a YouTube video by Friedrich Lips discussing how he and Mogens Ellegaard worked with the accordion makers in Russia and Italy to improve the free bass acoustics. If so, it does seem that free bass instruments made since 2000 have improved tonal characteristics from instruments made earlier. Although Giulietti was the best imo.
I really started practicing a lot again on the Castagnari. Building up some skills, I was able to join Klezmer and Manouche jazz ensembles at local music school. I also got to the point I could play some Bach Invetions and Sinfonias.
Scales, arpeggios, and everything Bach composed lie pretty much under the fingers on a 3-row chromatic. A musician friend advised me to practice exercises and transcriptions from Volume 4 of the John Mehegan Jazz Improvisation series. While most difficult for me, 2 note shell voicings and 4 note chord rootless voicing comping patterns as played by Bill Evans also fit the fingers comfortably and logically on a 3-row CBA free bass keyboard.
By October 2023, i had to give up playing a PA treble. Osteoarthritis has taken away the use of my thumbs on a piano keyboard. I switched to CBA treble too. I happened to luck onto a Russian made bayan, of course B-system treble and converter free bass. I
In sum, of the 5 free bass systems I’ve played, I strongly prefer either a C- or B-system CBA in both hands. They are mirror images of one another.
CBA keyboards have nearly 4.5 octaves in each hand with free bass. Essentially it’s the same range as a piano. Baroque music is more acoustically suitable for freebass accordion than is the modern piano. It’s great for piano too. But
The other systems like Khuel and Moschino okay. But it’s hard enough to find a free bass accordion. As well as a logical keyboard proven to fit the fingers for a whole lot of music, CBA free bass accordions are still being made. And the current instruments all sound quite wonderful.

 

[Walker]

Piano accordion can certainly be played with a number of free bass systems. However, I would like to tell you my experience with the one system in particular that I have spent a lot of time with, namely the Quint free bass system. To start with, I don't like being uncharitable towards other systems so this won't be a 'system comparison' post in any way, just the thoughts of a casual Quintist. Now, when I was a kid, I often heard of converter accordions and mainly Russian type virtuoso music played on bayan. While it was impressive, like fireworks on bonfire night, I never desired to actually play Russian concert music. What I did like was my piano accordion, and if there could only be some way where I could just play my trad./folk tunes with the option of more interesting left hand harmonies or bass runs that extended beyond one octave, that would suit me just fine. I discovered that in America they played an instrument that I thought was called stradella-free bass or extended-stradella. Turns out the terms 'Palmer-Hughes converter', 'Galla-Rini converter' and 'Quint system' were the more common names. Titanos looked so cool to me, with all the chrome bits and 'Palmer & Hughes converter' signature on the front. Anyway, 'Quint', I imagine comes from the Italian 'Quinte' meaning 5ths. It's just the circle of 5ths that accordionists know better than pretty much all other musicians. I liked that by learning Quint I wouldn't have to learn an extra system - only my piano keys and stradella bass notes (but over more octaves).

After spending a short time with Quint system I discovered it was easy to harmonise in different octaves once I got used to the different positions of the low, middle and high octave. When I started to play runs and scales it took a while to get the fingering right and realise there were multiple paths, some of which would not be 'well trodden' for the stradella only player, but were there all the time, underneath the 'briar and bramble', waiting to be discovered. You know, like when you want to play a bass run C, D, E, everyone would normally play the D as a fundamental note that's above G. But after a while of playing Quint system, at least 50% of the time I'm playing the D that's counter to Bb, south of C. I guess Quint makes you much better at playing stradella when you discover the many new options. Of course, you always need to be mindful about your octave breaks and also try to chose the optimal route in any given situation.

I'm beginning to realise Quint system has a particular strength... Early music! I find myself delving more towards baroque, renaissance, and perhaps even medieval music in time. Quint accordionists also play a bit of classical like Mozart or Haydn, but not too much romantic music. Perhaps the significant move towards much greater 'chromaticism' in romantic era piano is less suited to Quint. That said, I've grappled with pieces of music by Massenet, Delibes and a little Chopin. I guess it's about choosing what suits the instrument and the performer. There was a while when I thought that with only USA, Italy and New Zealand making attempts at playing Quint, that it might be on its way out. However, I'm seeing more and more contemporary composers writing for accordion (mainly in Italy) and the performers often play Quint system. That makes me more confident that Quint is here to stay. The likes of Grayson Masefield, Francesco Palazzo, Ivano Battiston, Ivano Paterno, Margherita Berlanda, Ludovicka Borsatti, Luigi Luca, Ricardo Centazzo to name just a few, are very inspiring musicians for me.

​

 

[saundersbp]

To start with, I don't like being uncharitable towards other systems so this won't be a 'system comparison' post in any way, just the thoughts of a casual Quintist.

I can only speak from the basis of playing other instruments professionally and then coming to the accordion later in life. My musical experience is that the CBA RH and CBA LH (B or C) removes the shackles the instrument has in other forms, and gives a learner the tools to tackle any sort of music. Of course if you have enough time and dedication you can make much music on whatever system you like, but basically I think the multiplicity of systems is as much a barrier to new learners as it is a celebration of rich cultural diversity in a very niche field.

However, when trying to create an educational project at scale for economically deprived children, one needs to standardise for financial and pedagogical efficiency. By analogy, children in UK schools are given Chromebooks for a reason. Speed of student progress and provision of teachers is also a factor.

The post from @EdBouchard above I give some weight to, as he's speaking from a lot of experience.

 

[Rosie C]

I'm beginning to realise Quint system has a particular strength... Early music! I find myself delving more towards baroque, renaissance, and perhaps even medieval music in time.​

Now, that's interesting. I play in a renaissance-rock band. I've not played live with accordion, but we've sometimes used it as a substitute for the shawm [when multi-track recording].

 

[Pipemajor]

I play in a renaissance-rock band

That sounds interesting!

 

[Ventura]

both of these accounts of personal exploration are great
stories and very informative, even for a person like me

 

[Rosie C]

both of these accounts of personal exploration are great
stories and very informative, even for a person like me

Indeed, there have been some fantastic responses to my question... thanks everyone!

 

[JerryPH]

Any and all systems would work, and as most here know, I am comfortable on minor 3rds, having 3 Hohners with this system, but for your needs, I will suggest the Quint system.
- very similar to stradella patterns so faster and easier to learn
- your needs won’t run in to the restrictions that the quint system might have

 

[Walker]

Your honour...

Today we have heard some frightful allegations made against the Quint converter accordion, and while such unsubstantiated and ad hominem comments that are intended to belittle and dismiss this most glorious of accordion systems as somehow of lesser value, like suggesting the Quint accordion sounds like elephant flatulence (yes Ed, that one didn't get forgotten, it's not just proboscidea who have a good memory), or the allusion to the system of piano accordion with Quint bass as being a shackle to hold back accordionists (@saundersbp, there's a surprise). However, as the jury will hear, the magnificent Quint converter is simply a misunderstood and wrongfully maligned system NOT because of any inherent weakness it possesses, but rather because it is different and distinct to all the other free bass systems. Precisely because there is ONLY 1 Quint system and not multiple variations on a tired theme, the Quint converter piano accordion stands tall, noble and conspicuous, for it is built upon a most universal of accordion formats - the traditional stradella bass accordion! Quint is a simple and capable system, despite being taken wholly for granted by many.

Wise citizens of the jury, I would like to introduce my first witness as an example of how beautiful the Quint converter is. Richard Galliano is perhaps the greatest accordionist who ever placed an accordion on his knee - of such skill and musicality as has never been replicated. Listen to his beautiful, haunted and unsettled interpretation of Gnossienne No. 4, Lent a 20th Century work by Erik Satie (whose mother's side was Scottish, just sayin').​

For my second example of the priceless worth of Quint system, I would like to call forward a recording of the Grande Maestro Salvatore De Gesualdo. Here on this recording we listen to music composed by perhaps the greatest composer of the English Renaissance played with a sublime understatement on piano accordion with Quint free bass. I give you William Byrd's (1542 - 1623) keyboard work, entitled Fantasy. ​

For my next witness to dispel the myths of the restrictions of Quint system I would like to call forward Maestro Ivano Battiston playing a piece of music by the greatest composer who has ever drawn breath. Here's Contrapunctus I by J. S. Bach.​

While I could continue calling forward witness after witness to the marvels of Quint system - world champion after world champion (as in all the above examples) I will leave you here now with something a little lighter, from yet another world champion, Grayson Masefield...​

I rest my case!

 

[Rosie C]

Your honour...

Today we have heard some frightful allegations made against the Quint converter accordion, and while such unsubstantiated and ad hominem comments that are intended to belittle and dismiss this most glorious of accordion systems as somehow of lesser value, like suggesting the Quint accordion sounds like elephant flatulence (yes Ed, that one didn't get forgotten, it's not just proboscidea who have a good memory), or the allusion to the system of piano accordion with Quint bass as being a shackle to hold back accordionists (@saundersbp, there's a surprise). However, as the jury will hear, the magnificent Quint converter is simply a misunderstood and wrongfully maligned system NOT because of any inherent weakness it possesses, but rather because it is different and distinct to all the other free bass systems. Precisely because there is ONLY 1 Quint system and not multiple variations on a tired theme, the Quint converter piano accordion stands tall, noble and conspicuous, for it is built upon on a most universal of accordion formats - the traditional stradella bass accordion! Quint is a simple and capable system, despite being taken wholly for granted by many.

Wise citizens of the jury, I would like to introduce my first witness as an example of how the beautiful the Quint converter is. Richard Galliano is perhaps the greatest accordionist who ever placed an accordion on his knee - of such skill and musically as has never been replicated. Listen to his beautiful, haunted and unsettled interpretation of Gnossienne No. 4, Lent a 20th Century work by Erik Satie (whose mother's side was Scottish, just sayin').​

For my second example of the priceless worth of Quint system, I would like to call forward a recording of the Grande Maestro Salvatore De Gesualdo. Here on this recording we listen to music composed by perhaps the greatest composer of the English Renaissance played with a sublime understatement a piano accordion with Quint free bass. I give you William Byrd's (1542 - 1623) keyboard work, entitled Fantasy. ​

For my next witness to dispel the myths of the restrictions of Quint system I would like to call forward Maestro Ivano Battiston playing a piece of music by the greatest composer who has ever drawn breath. Here's Contrapunctus I by J. S. Bach.​

While I could continue calling forward witness after witness to the marvels of Quint system - world champion after world champion (as in all the above examples) I will leave you here now with something a little lighter, from yet another world champion, Grayson Masefield...​

I rest my case!

 

[saundersbp]

Your honour...

My learned friend has presented this court with no evidence to substantiate the case. Rather we have entertaining prose - worthy of a vivid romantic imagination - and a colourful harvest of YouTube videos of virtuoso's that could make fine music on any contraption.

The quint accordion promises much, and clearly in the hands of these seductive YouTube virtuoso videos it delivers. The problem is that in reality the 5ths freebass system doesn't play out well for the average mortal, people try it, and soon realise the promise of quick progress is in fact a series of limitations, and the so-called transfer-ability is in fact the weight of heavy shackles. If something sounds too good to be true......

the Quint converter piano accordion stands tall, noble and conspicuous

- Tall, yes very, and heavy too. But even at the height of the tower of babel it is a minnow compared to the musical range of a smaller lighter chromatic instrument.

- Noble, yes it is an expensive aristocrat, effete, unpopular, and good luck if you are trying to sell one.

- Conspicuous, yes, it does shout for attention from those that have bought them, lovely people and zealous advocates. But to the evidence of my ears, and the good friends I have that have taken this narrow path, it all too often leads the amateur up a road where they are dragging a ball and chains against rapid progress.

I will not waste the court's time further by posting videos of favourite virtuoso's, but rather refer to the evidence of our first witness @EdBouchard. He has played all these systems and has a lifetime of experience.

 

[EdBouchard]

Your honour...

Today we have heard some frightful allegations made against the Quint converter accordion, and while such unsubstantiated and ad hominem comments that are intended to belittle and dismiss this most glorious of accordion systems as somehow of lesser value, like suggesting the Quint accordion sounds like elephant flatulence (yes Ed, that one didn't get forgotten, it's not just proboscidea who have a good memory), or the allusion to the system of piano accordion with Quint bass as being a shackle to hold back accordionists (@saundersbp, there's a surprise). However, as the jury will hear, the magnificent Quint converter is simply a misunderstood and wrongfully maligned system NOT because of any inherent weakness it possesses, but rather because it is different and distinct to all the other free bass systems. Precisely because there is ONLY 1 Quint system and not multiple variations on a tired theme, the Quint converter piano accordion stands tall, noble and conspicuous, for it is built upon a most universal of accordion formats - the traditional stradella bass accordion! Quint is a simple and capable system, despite being taken wholly for granted by many.

Wise citizens of the jury, I would like to introduce my first witness as an example of how beautiful the Quint converter is. Richard Galliano is perhaps the greatest accordionist who ever placed an accordion on his knee - of such skill and musicality as has never been replicated. Listen to his beautiful, haunted and unsettled interpretation of Gnossienne No. 4, Lent a 20th Century work by Erik Satie (whose mother's side was Scottish, just sayin').​

For my second example of the priceless worth of Quint system, I would like to call forward a recording of the Grande Maestro Salvatore De Gesualdo. Here on this recording we listen to music composed by perhaps the greatest composer of the English Renaissance played with a sublime understatement on piano accordion with Quint free bass. I give you William Byrd's (1542 - 1623) keyboard work, entitled Fantasy. ​

For my next witness to dispel the myths of the restrictions of Quint system I would like to call forward Maestro Ivano Battiston playing a piece of music by the greatest composer who has ever drawn breath. Here's Contrapunctus I by J. S. Bach.​

While I could continue calling forward witness after witness to the marvels of Quint system - world champion after world champion (as in all the above examples) I will leave you here now with something a little lighter, from yet another world champion, Grayson Masefield...​

I rest my case!

Walker, when Carl Elmer, my former teacher, made the comment that the low notes on free bass accordion that I was playing sounded like “elephant farts” (his term not mine” I’m pretty sure he was referring to the sound of all free bass accordions, not just a quint system. Also, that would have been about 1961 or ‘62 at the latest. When I was given the instrument to try out, I teaching at LoDuca Bros. in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I was slso employed as an assistant for Guy LoDuca and had other errands.
My guess is that LoDuca Bros, the company, was considering offering a quint free bass model. Hohner, and maybe Giulietti had only recently introduced their first commercially available free bass models. Was it in 1959?
Whatever!
No matter what the system, the sound of the free bass on many of the early free bass tended to be on the harsh side. Although, at one point I did briefly try out a Giulietti back then that had, to my ears, sounded much better.
Free bass accordions that have been made since 2000 or so, whatever the system, are all quite wonderful. That at least partially maybe due to bayan makers. There is Frederich Lips YouTube video in which he tells how he and Mogens Ellegaard worked with accordion and bayan makers to improve the internal acoustics of these instruments.
Among the advantages of the chromatic B- and C-system CBA free bass systems over a quint is one of range. A quint system keyboard is limited to three octaves, maybe a bit more if you add an extra two rows. The CBA free bass keyboard is 4-1/2 octaves, 54 notes.
Of course, as your video selection point out, in the hands of a fine players, a lot music can be played on a quint. And, of course, they can be played on a chromatic, CBA free bass.

 

[Walker]

Objection, your honour...

@EdBouchard may very well have a wealth of experience to call upon and it is indeed appreciated that we may learn from him. However, I find the following statement to be an unfair representation of the Quint system.​

Among the advantages of the chromatic B- and C-system CBA free bass systems over a quint is one of range. A quint system keyboard is limited to three octaves, maybe a bit more if you add an extra two rows. The CBA free bass keyboard is 4-1/2 octaves, 54 notes.

What we have here is a clear case of Ed building a strawman argument. He conveniently compares the very smallest Quint free bass system with 3 octaves against the largest chromatic free bass systems with 4-1/2 octaves or 58 notes to be precise. However, not only does his strawman statement uncharitably diminish the Quint free bass system, it is also misleading...

To be clear, the large 'concert' Quint converter has a full 4 octave, 48 free bass note range. And while you may think, but Walker 48 bass notes is less than 58 bass notes, I would like to draw your attention to the full picture... When one considers the whole accordion, both right and left keyboards, what you may discover is that despite a CBA with chromatic free bass having individually larger ranges on each hand, when comparing the complete range of notes from the lowest pitch bass to the highest pitch treble note, IN FACT, the accordion with the greatest overall range of notes is not the bayan or CBA, it is the concert Quint converter accordion, because it has a complete compass of C1 right up to C8 (or C#8). To put this into perspective - the Quint converter accordion has a compass that is only 3 notes shy of an 88 note piano. A concert CBA on the other hand has a total range of notes from E1 to C8 (or C#8), thus it has 7 notes less than the full range of a piano.​

 

[Henry D]

Interesting kerfluffle on a subject of interest in an accordion forum.

The point of the orignal question was which system is suited for

Mostly I play folk tunes, and Stradella works great for those. But at Christmas I have a couple of carol singing gigs where free bass may be better...I'm not looking for a full melody in the L/H, rather to do a simple bass line.

Given that Ms. R probably intends to play this on her compact Roland -which would allow her to use many schemes, none of which match the range (or heft) of the Steinway minus steamer trunk models of the mega accordions discussed above- the real issues at hand are; applicablilty, ease of learning, and most likely to enhance her existing skill set.

 

[Ventura]

" her existing skill set "

yes, and that is partly in another incarnation she
is a Bass player, and so i expect her left hand is
always going to have an affinity to how a bass
player thinks and moves and anticipates

so a freebass or other layout that feeds into that
naturally may be quicker.. but as an accomplished
multi-instrument musician she can no doubt learn
something completely new too