vintage dynamic mic system or cardioid mic system

[Vlad the Polka]

I'm having a bit a dilemma and maybe you all can provide an inkling of insight from your experience and expertise.

I have read some of the threads talking about mic systems. My problem is that I bought a giulietti f42 and the previous owner removed the bass side mic. The dynamic treble side mics still work. I've been trying to find a replacement but then I thought maybe there was a good reason that they removed it (i.e. it sounded horrible). I noticed Ventura said that they installed a silver bullet in the left side with good results.

On the other hand I could drop the 700$ I was gonna use to get my other giulietti fine tuned and get another harmonik system but I would hate to remove the original mics and I like that they don't get much feedback and it requires no power. I installed the harmonik system in my LM giulietti and I was really surprised how good it sounded. there was a wind gushing sound on some notes so I put a thin wind screen over them and it solved that problem. The only complaint I have is that when I play with the band live it tends to feedback quite a bit especially when I stroll. Hence my dilemma.

Should I remove the old mics and install a new system? I should say with this accordion I will probably perform with a band sometimes but mainly solo or as a duo with my partner who plays singing saw.

many thanks in advance,
Blake Gorey

 

[Ventura]

if it ain't broke

those dynamic treble mics have a lot going for them
not the least of which is freedom from batteries

assuming Shure still sells the element through their
parts department, this is a far more economical way
to go and you wouldn't need to even run that damn
wire through the bellows if you install a jack, and possibly
a volume and tone control as well, on the bass panel below
the bass buttons, then mic wirelessly through a transmitter
velco'd to your bass hand-strap and have a gentle through
thunderous Bass sound whenever you need it

remember to use potentiometers with a detent,
meaning the shaft clicks as you turn it and stays in
position defying vibration and motion of the accordion..
(not so important on the treble side)

dunno how far back you researched, but you take a piece of like
old innertube rubber and fold the element up inside it with
a cutout for the sound to get to the element face.. the rubber
envelope mounts easily with a screw or 2 but protects the
element from body noise/vibration on the bass side

if i recall, use an .047Mfd capacitor for the tone control (referenced to ground)
and a 2 Mfd tantalum for the output leg of the volume pot
(Caps can probably suggest the correct value for the tone control
if i got it wrong.. maybe it was .0047)

 

[JerryPH]

Dynamic mics work, need no extra power, but their output is extremely low meaning that the gain has to be raised which means the whole system is way more sensitive which means... feedback.

That's not to say that you cannot get feedback on a setup like the Harmonik mics, but it's a lot harder to do and if you take the higher model version, you 100% eliminate all feedback with a single click of a button. They also sound a lot more natural than the best dynamic mics which tend towards the extremes of a flat sound.


The dynamic mic option is cheaper, easier, the Harmonik mics are much more expensive but work and sound much better.

 

[Ventura]

the Silver Bullet element is high impedence, and has a pretty
hot signal.. now think of all those harmonica guys
blowing into them at point blank range amp'd up
through the old Roll and Pleated Kustom PA with
the 8 10" speaker column

they are surprisingly directional for such a huge circumference
and resist feedback quite well.. that was why i experimented
with them them started installing them in my gig accordions..
i mean it is the largest across element i have seen except for a
ribbon type and it really has no problem with pressure
or wind or those big sine waves

now way back in the day i also ran them through an
aggressive low-pass filter then a bass booster to get
a bass tone that could hold it's own in a Rock band,
plus i always fed the bass through it's own channel
panned to a 15" speaker in the Wall of Sound

i dunno if any electret element could have done
better.. maybe.. maybe the physical size really makes
a difference for Bass maybe not.. and i did experiment
a bit over the years with powered mics in the bass chamber..

and maybe i am a sucker for an old American company that
has reliably been in my corner for my entire lifetime.. Shure,
like Switchcraft.. is still around still doing things the way
they always have still glad to support Musicians to the hilt..

 

[Vlad the Polka]

if it ain't broke

those dynamic treble mics have a lot going for them
not the least of which is freedom from batteries

assuming Shure still sells the element through their
parts department, this is a far more economical way
to go and you wouldn't need to even run that damn
wire through the bellows if you install a jack, and possibly
a volume and tone control as well, on the bass panel below
the bass buttons, then mic wirelessly through a transmitter
velco'd to your bass hand-strap and have a gentle through
thunderous Bass sound whenever you need it

remember to use potentiometers with a detent,
meaning the shaft clicks as you turn it and stays in
position defying vibration and motion of the accordion..
(not so important on the treble side)

dunno how far back you researched, but you take a piece of like
old innertube rubber and fold the element up inside it with
a cutout for the sound to get to the element face.. the rubber
envelope mounts easily with a screw or 2 but protects the
element from body noise/vibration on the bass side

if i recall, use an .047Mfd capacitor for the tone control (referenced to ground)
and a 2 Mfd tantalum for the output leg of the volume pot
(Caps can probably suggest the correct value for the tone control
if i got it wrong.. maybe it was .0047)

wow thank you so much for all the info! that is actually a really good idea to have two outputs for the left and right side. I may even try this on the other giulietti because the left side sounds to echoey with the cardioid mic. I wonder if there's a way to wire a dynamic into the bass side on the harmonik system. it has like a telephone cord going through the bellows. not as annoying as the wire weaved back and forth but stil annoying nonetheless.

 

[Vlad the Polka]

Dynamic mics work, need no extra power, but their output is extremely low meaning that the gain has to be raised which means the whole system is way more sensitive which means... feedback.

That's not to say that you cannot get feedback on a setup like the Harmonik mics, but it's a lot harder to do and if you take the higher model version, you 100% eliminate all feedback with a single click of a button. They also sound a lot more natural than the best dynamic mics which tend towards the extremes of a flat sound.


The dynamic mic option is cheaper, easier, the Harmonik mics are much more expensive but work and sound much better.

I agree the harmonik mics are optimal. you can't really beat them. I even record with them and can remove the clicks in the program. a good eq pedal will remove the clicks when performing live but I don't really mind the clicks because I tend play percussively.

 

[Ventura]

I wonder if there's a way to wire a dynamic into the bass side on the harmonik system.

you would need the schematics, and then measure if the signal from
the dynamic element fed through a 2Uf capacitor (to assure no DC
voltage comes back to the mic) and see if it is near the input the
pre-amp section of the harmonic system is expecting to see

if not, you might either re-engineer the pre-amp with a different
mix of RC components to match the dynamic signal, or add your
own op-amp pre amp to feed the Harmonic pre-amp the needed
signal level