Use of the THUMB up to CBA row 3 ?

[Tafaner]

As a newcomer, I could do with some help on use of the THUMB on CBA!

Apologies in advance to those who think this has been already talked to death! I have run some searches, but don't find exactly the answer to my question.

I'm aware that there is a fairly settled convention that the thumb stays on ROW ONE (through 'Anzaghistas' venture on to ROW 2). I'm aware also that the THUMB is a valuable asset, and you will likely limit your potential is you play fingers-only. I also realise that the thumb articulates differently, so is not just "another finger".

That said, how well-founded is the policy on not thumbing up to ROW 3 ?

The beginner in me admires the beauty of the 3-row chromatic CBA system, and wants to see rows 4 and 5 not as "overflow" rows, but as a way of having ONE set of SCALES that transposes across the entire instrument. This matters a lot to me, because I play other instruments and do a lot of improvising with other jazzers. This includes DIMINISHED SCALE patterns and quite a lot of MELODIC MINOR MODES. The CBA strikes me as potentially perfect for both - but the thumb restriction feels like a real impediment.

I only have an FR1xb for now, but I notice that the banks of buttons are STEPPED/TERRACED, a feature which looked to me like it's intended to allow reaching over with the thumb? And if it's not optimum, might it be possible to "improve" thumb playing by wearing some kind of sideways extension, a 5mm "prosthetic" (just as some guitarists use clip-on thumb picks to get better plucking angles)

My initial tests suggest it might work for me - but I wouldn't want to set out in a direction which I later regret! All advice appreciated.

 

[Ffingers]

I am an octogenarian who took to music and the accordion for my 80th birthday so I can perhaps give you a raw beginner's viewpoint.
Add to that some degree of osteoarthritis in both hands and you might see where this comes from
My accordions are 'B' griff but I understand from discussing with others and watching seemingly endless u-toobs by a wide array of teachers and performers (there is a plethora of them) that the same applies to the 'C' griff.
So, having begun my squeezing adventures focussing on the primary 3 rows which make up the basics of these demon devices, I soon came to realise that one can very soon adapt the fingering for a particular music piece, or part thereof, to whatever suits particular phrases and portions of it - including the use of the thumb.
May I recommend watching Richard Galliano and Alexandr Hrstecvich on their u-toob videos as examples of maestros of considerable abilities and experience.
Using the playback speed control in the u-toob settings is helpful.


www.youtube.com/@richardgalliano3487

www.youtube.com/@Hrustevich

repectively

 

[dunlustin]

FWIW:
I use thumb on rows 1 & 2.
If Row 1 is currently the 'home row,' my thumb 'knows' where certain notes are.
Sometimes row2 becomes the home row - for example b,c,d,e on rows 3, 4, 3, 2 - then my thumb also 'knows' what is in row 2 in the same relative place.
Does this even make sense?
I don't think I use thumb on row 3 - maybe because it's rarely the home row.
That said, the same familiarity for row 3 would be useful.
I believe some people now use row 3 as their usual home row, going against older practice.
IMO using just 3 rows with the odd excursion goes back to the days when accordions had just 3 rows.
It is also because the French invented two sayings that translate:
-Beauty requires suffering
and
- If you can 'do hard' you can 'do easy.'

 

[dak]

First, you need to be aware that there is a significant difference between B system and C system in that regard: a fifth moves outwards on B system and inwards on C system. That means that chords on C system tend to follow hand curvature while they oppose hand curvature on B system. That makes the thumb less useful for chord forming in B system than on C system, and consequently the B system methods avoid using the thumb a lot more than C system methods.

Then if you have a held low note with melodic patterns about an octave above, there is no alternative to using the thumb. That makes clear that an absolute rule of never using the thumb on third row would not make sense. However, there are differences in convenience.

Then, as your skills progress, you change your view about what happens. First you are focused on what your fingers have to do. Later you rather think about what the buttons have to do. Ultimately, you'll rather be focused about what the notes have to do. Transposing on a piano keyboard is solid in the third category while transposing on a five-row CBA can work in all categories. For an experienced player, it ends up somewhere between second and third category (since at speed, fingers run in patterns and those patterns differ according to row). For a beginner, the idea of being able to do this in category one appears very compelling and may work to a degree in a pinch.

At each skill level, it makes sense to assess how the various approaches available to you may work out. This may change over time. In a performance situation, you will pick what works best for you at that moment. It would be my guess that over time you'll find your spontaneous transpositions to use first row notes more often than you'd use them now, because they fall better into patterns that your fingers are used to.

P.S.: I got quite confused by the message board reporting thumb up reactions to this post in the "Use of the THUMB up to CBA row 3 ?" thread.

 

[godgi]

I was told to avoid using the thumb on row 3 ok for rows 1 and 2 then on the Finnish systen C is 3rd row so I do not know how they grapple with that. Some french players avoid the thumb like the plague.

 

[dak]

I was told to avoid using the thumb on row 3 ok for rows 1 and 2 then on the Finnish systen C is 3rd row so I do not know how they grapple with that.

Finnish players primarily use the outer three rows like everybody else so there is no "grappling" involved. They play the C with the thumb as rarely as C system players play the D with the thumb.

 

[oldbayan]

Thumb policy??? I would say, use whatever finger makes you get the notes that you need!

 

[dunlustin]

Re: “I only have an FR1xb “
I think you will find that the 3 octaves available, + octave shift, + being able to transpose in semi-tone steps, mean it will be some time before you exhaust your FR1XB
I Just noticed where you live. My reference to France was meant to be unkind – sorry! I found that, in the past, teaching/learning in France could be rigid/dogmatic.
This has changed a lot: Galliano’s book is worth having even if you are not a beginner. Details like index going over thumb – common for a PA player, less so on a CBA - not least because older practice often used the thumb simply as a guide.

Other thoughts:
I’m sure you know that for years many people found 4 rows to be enough.
The big advantage of row 4 (over a 3-row) is that you do not have to reach back to row 1 to form chords; the shapes are moveable as you said.
5 rows: Years ago, at least one maker marketed the 5-row as a ‘transposing’ instrument. True in theory but you don’t seem to see this happening much.

Given how compact the keyboard is, I think your ‘prosthetic’ might not add a lot. Maybe see what you can reach with your thumb alone.
Anyway, if it works, that's fine. Look at the massive development in Diatonic playing over the last 50 years.
Finally, if you are tempted to ‘trade up’ to a 4X – you may want to consider if you actually need the extras.

 

[Tafaner]

As a newcomer, I could do with some help on use of the THUMB on CBA!

Apologies in advance to those who think this has been already talked to death! I have run some searches, but don't find exactly the answer to my question.

I'm aware that there is a fairly settled convention that the thumb stays on ROW ONE (through 'Anzaghistas' venture on to ROW 2). I'm aware also that the THUMB is a valuable asset, and you will likely limit your potential is you play fingers-only. I also realise that the thumb articulates differently, so is not just "another finger".

That said, how well-founded is the policy on not thumbing up to ROW 3 ?

The beginner in me admires the beauty of the 3-row chromatic CBA system, and wants to see rows 4 and 5 not as "overflow" rows, but as a way of having ONE set of SCALES that transposes across the entire instrument. This matters a lot to me, because I play other instruments and do a lot of improvising with other jazzers. This includes DIMINISHED SCALE patterns and quite a lot of MELODIC MINOR MODES. The CBA strikes me as potentially perfect for both - but the thumb restriction feels like a real impediment.

I only have an FR1xb for now, but I notice that the banks of buttons are STEPPED/TERRACED, a feature which looked to me like it's intended to allow reaching over with the thumb? And if it's not optimum, might it be possible to "improve" thumb playing by wearing some kind of sideways extension, a 5mm "prosthetic" (just as some guitarists use clip-on thumb picks to get better plucking angles)

My initial tests suggest it might work for me - but I wouldn't want to set out in a direction which I later regret! All advice appreciated.

Just a quick note to thank everyone for the generous replies already received - which I've read several times. Plenty for me to think about.
(What a great resource this forum is!)

 

[Tafaner]

First, you need to be aware that there is a significant difference between B system and C system in that regard: a fifth moves outwards on B system and inwards on C system. That means that chords on C system tend to follow hand curvature while they oppose hand curvature on B system. That makes the thumb less useful for chord forming in B system than on C system, and consequently the B system methods avoid using the thumb a lot more than C system methods.

Then if you have a held low note with melodic patterns about an octave above, there is no alternative to using the thumb. That makes clear that an absolute rule of never using the thumb on third row would not make sense. However, there are differences in convenience.

Then, as your skills progress, you change your view about what happens. First you are focused on what your fingers have to do. Later you rather think about what the buttons have to do. Ultimately, you'll rather be focused about what the notes have to do. Transposing on a piano keyboard is solid in the third category while transposing on a five-row CBA can work in all categories. For an experienced player, it ends up somewhere between second and third category (since at speed, fingers run in patterns and those patterns differ according to row). For a beginner, the idea of being able to do this in category one appears very compelling and may work to a degree in a pinch.

At each skill level, it makes sense to assess how the various approaches available to you may work out. This may change over time. In a performance situation, you will pick what works best for you at that moment. It would be my guess that over time you'll find your spontaneous transpositions to use first row notes more often than you'd use them now, because they fall better into patterns that your fingers are used to.

P.S.: I got quite confused by the message board reporting thumb up reactions to this post in the "Use of the THUMB up to CBA row 3 ?" thread.

All great points, many thanks" The FR1xb is of course configurable, but mine is currently in European C-Griff. I'm thinking of staying with this.

 

[dak]

All great points, many thanks" The FR1xb is of course configurable, but mine is currently in European C-Griff. I'm thinking of staying with this.

Well, you are living in France according to your profile. Short of already having a B system instrument or teacher, it would limit your future options quite a bit if you were to move away from C system.

 

[Tafaner]

Re: “I only have an FR1xb “
I think you will find that the 3 octaves available, + octave shift, + being able to transpose in semi-tone steps, mean it will be some time before you exhaust your FR1XB
I Just noticed where you live. My reference to France was meant to be unkind – sorry! I found that, in the past, teaching/learning in France could be rigid/dogmatic.
This has changed a lot: Galliano’s book is worth having even if you are not a beginner. Details like index going over thumb – common for a PA player, less so on a CBA - not least because older practice often used the thumb simply as a guide.

Other thoughts:
I’m sure you know that for years many people found 4 rows to be enough.
The big advantage of row 4 (over a 3-row) is that you do not have to reach back to row 1 to form chords; the shapes are moveable as you said.
5 rows: Years ago, at least one maker marketed the 5-row as a ‘transposing’ instrument. True in theory but you don’t seem to see this happening much.

Given how compact the keyboard is, I think your ‘prosthetic’ might not add a lot. Maybe see what you can reach with your thumb alone.
Anyway, if it works, that's fine. Look at the massive development in Diatonic playing over the last 50 years.
Finally, if you are tempted to ‘trade up’ to a 4X – you may want to consider if you actually need the extras.

No offence taken about France! I'm a Brit retired here - and spend a good deal of time over the border in Catalunya anyway! But I've noticed that the French accordion tradition seems as bit rigid as you say. My favourite player here is Vincent Peirani (there are some videos of him in the forum) and I've noticed that he seems to only play rows 1-3 with thumb mostly on 1. And that's despite being an "enfant terrible".

Re the FR4x, I am tempted, but would need to make some good progress before considering an upgrade!

 

[JerryPH]

Thumb policy??? I would say, use whatever finger makes you get the notes that you need!

I am not a CBA player, but I'd generally agree with this. The rule of fingering is that you use whatever finger is the most effective AND sets you up for the next note to minimize finger or wrist gymnastics. Use what works effectively, easily and sets you up for success on the next note.

 

[dak]

I am not a CBA player, but I'd generally agree with this. The rule of fingering is that you use whatever finger is the most effective AND sets you up for the next note to minimize finger or wrist gymnastics. Use what works effectively, easily and sets you up for success on the next note.

A player that carefully selects the optimal most anatomically suitable sequence of fingerings for every piece of music will be so much faster than someone who uses patterns from rote memory for 98% of all notes and just spends thought on the few exceptions that would paint them into really bad corners when following their ingrained reflexes.

Or will they? Default fingerings in my book are not as much rules but skills. They allow you to focus your attention where it is called for. Attention and thinking are ultimately precious resources that can be spent better than on standard tasks that can well be done in standard ways.

Oh, and by the way: the thumb is really flexible and can stray a whole lot of distance from the other keys. If you want to play an organ point, the other fingers better be able to do melodic stuff without involving the thumb.

How far should savings go? If we default to using only two fingers on scale fragments, we lose the ability to regroup when connecting two fragments. So three should be minimum, and the pinky, as opposed to the thumb, is actually a comparatively weak finger, sharing tendon sheaves with the ring finger. Methods differ in how much they focus on the central three fingers for doing most of the standard work that allows you to focus on how to fit the non-standard stuff to your anatomy.

 

[Tafaner]

As the beginner who posted this question, I'm really interested in the replies! I'm seeing particular parallels with the world of CLASSICAL GUITAR, where there is a never-ending debate about "correct" ways of doing things (perhaps as part of the quest for legitimacy that guitarists still feel, playing what was once not considered a "proper" instrument?)

Classical guitarists have a particular obsession with the LEFT HAND THUMB, which is generally banned - and yet, there are some voicings (such as the 7-string one shown in my picture) that are otherwise impossible! So there's a good reason to challenge orthodoxy sometimes - but equally, you can head off into a cul-de-sac that orthodoxy has rightly rejected !

So I guess it's not easy, but your various replies are helping, at least!

 

[losthobos]

You're gonna need to use your thumb....
I often use mine as a pedal point anchor...
As dak suggests your fingering is really going to be dictated by where you're heading to rather than where you're starting from...
The french have a saying re C system CBA which translates roughly as "avoid forked fingers" ...means something like...if you're starting on row two then it is better to play next note on row four than row one thereby keeping within natural curvature of fingers....
I will often climb across all five rows as a ladder going up the scale rather than having to keep resetting to stay in the first three rows...
The beauty of the CBA is the myriad of options available to play a line....and believe me they all sound slightly different depending which option you pick... however this could also be considered a handicap as it does not help build the muscle memory that Jerry speaks of( the piano has only one option for each note so a one size fits all fingering would be easier to adhere too)
Alas I'm a hamfisted fumbler at best a skate over keys rather than play with great conviction so take my words lightly and more as guidelines than rules...
Hope that helps

 

[saundersbp]

That said, how well-founded is the policy on not thumbing up to ROW 3

a bit unfounded imho..... I use thumb on rows 1, 2, 3 and even 4 is also sometimes its necessary for good hand shape/legato. Never 5 !

There is a desperate need for a modern English language tutor for button accordion - watch this space !

 

[KiwiSqueezer]

"There is a desperate need for a modern English language tutor for button accordion - watch this space !"

The Gallianos' book is available in English, as many will know. Other method books can be downloaded from on-line sources - if you know where to look... I have been very impressed by Google Translate's ability to identify and translate the text in screengrabbed images. You can then either store, and/or print the Google Translate's version, or transcribe whatever amount of the text is appropriate for your needs.

 

[Ffingers]

"There is a desperate need for a modern English language tutor for button accordion - watch this space !"

The Gallianos' book is available in English, as many will know. Other method books can be downloaded from on-line sources - if you know where to look... I have been very impressed by Google Translate's ability to identify and translate the text in screengrabbed images. You can then either store, and/or print the Google Translate's version, or transcribe whatever amount of the text is appropriate for your needs.

I am finding the Gallianos "Accordion Method", in English, to be quite useful, but what I would like to find is an English language 'Method' for the "B" griff accordion.

 

[Ffingers]

a bit unfounded imho..... I use thumb on rows 1, 2, 3 and even 4 is also sometimes its necessary for good hand shape/legato. Never 5 !

There is a desperate need for a modern English language tutor for button accordion - watch this space !

In "B" griff?
...and while you are at it, an adaptation for the 6 row "B" keyboard.