Brassodemolish
Member
How would one do it if you're tuning with the reeds in the box. Would you support the reeds with a pinger and use a scratcher? I'm tuning from 337hz to 440hz on my Hohner Imperial. Thanks
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Tuning upside down reeds (Highest treble reeds)
- Thread starter Brassodemolish
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boxplayer4000
Prolific poster
Hi Brassodemolish,
You'll probably need to remove the reed block to get at the small reeds (unless it's a simple adjustment of the outside reed).
Normally the reed pitch changes when you re-fit the roadblock back into the accordion but fortunately with the small, highest reeds there is is little or no change when they are replaced in the accordion.
As with all reeds they should be supported while tuning. A piece of emery cloth on the end of thin stick or rod is effective in making changes to the smaller reeds.
You'll probably need to remove the reed block to get at the small reeds (unless it's a simple adjustment of the outside reed).
Normally the reed pitch changes when you re-fit the roadblock back into the accordion but fortunately with the small, highest reeds there is is little or no change when they are replaced in the accordion.
As with all reeds they should be supported while tuning. A piece of emery cloth on the end of thin stick or rod is effective in making changes to the smaller reeds.
Like boxplayer4000 already said you have to remove the reed block to be able to file or scratch the reeds from the tip towards the rivet.
Taking reed blocks out and putting them back does *not* change reed pitch when the reed blocks are held in firmly (no wiggly play, no warping) and when they go in precisely without any possibility to shift their position even slightly. (That's a check and possibly correction every repairer needs to do before starting on a tuning job.)
You need to be very very gentle with the small reeds, always supporting them (with a very thin strip of metal), and filing or scratching with very sharp small files or scratchers. When you do it very carefully you will never break a reed during tuning unless it was already damaged by a previous repairer.
Taking reed blocks out and putting them back does *not* change reed pitch when the reed blocks are held in firmly (no wiggly play, no warping) and when they go in precisely without any possibility to shift their position even slightly. (That's a check and possibly correction every repairer needs to do before starting on a tuning job.)
You need to be very very gentle with the small reeds, always supporting them (with a very thin strip of metal), and filing or scratching with very sharp small files or scratchers. When you do it very carefully you will never break a reed during tuning unless it was already damaged by a previous repairer.
boxplayer4000
Prolific poster
Debra,
I'm not sure about the point you're making. I thought it was well established that reeds tuned on the bench (outside/removed from the accordion) will change pitch when fitted back into the accordion. My point is that the small/high reeds Brassodemolish is dealing with will change the least (or not at all) when re-inserted back into the accordion.
I'm not sure about the point you're making. I thought it was well established that reeds tuned on the bench (outside/removed from the accordion) will change pitch when fitted back into the accordion. My point is that the small/high reeds Brassodemolish is dealing with will change the least (or not at all) when re-inserted back into the accordion.
Siegmund
Well-known member
I think his point that, taken out and put back in, the unscratched reeds are supposed to sound the same as they did before they were taken out --- they still won't sound the same on the bench vs. inside the instrument.
Exactly. That's what I meant. You measure with the reed block in the accordion. You take out the reed block, then apply some scratches or file at the tip. You put the reed block back in the accordion and measure again. The change you then measure is caused only by the scratching or filing you do and not by taking out the reed block and putting it back.
I believe that was what I said: "Taking reed blocks out and putting them back does *not* change reed pitch". I was not trying to imply that measuring the tuning could be done with the reed block on the bench, because that is never ever done by an accordion tuner who knows what (s)he's doing.
boxplayer4000
Prolific poster
What a daft discussion......................
Well, the discussion of tuning in the box or not sure clouded the most important issue: Brassodemolish wants to change the tuning from 337 up to 440. This is generally a bad idea as it is a huge change, requiring lots of filing, weakening the reed tips... with high risk of breaking some of the smaller reeds and weakening the sound overall.
boxplayer4000
Prolific poster
The less filing and scraping the better, for sure. It's easy to remove metal but not to replace it. Sometimes with larger reeds there is the option to add a bit of solder to the tip to slow it down. Over the years I've sent 2nd. hand reeds to repairers, mostly those only suitable for piano accordions. (monotonic)
It only emerged through conservation with a buyer that the reeds were actually being converted to suit their diatonic instruments by raising/lowering one of the reeds a whole tone.
I think it would be helpful if Brassodemolish told us more about why he needs to change something from 337Hz to 440. A4 is 440Hz, standard concert pitch, but 337Hz relates to E4 + about 38 cents.
Has he mis-typed 337Hz instead of 437? This difference relates to a more manageable 11 cents.
It only emerged through conservation with a buyer that the reeds were actually being converted to suit their diatonic instruments by raising/lowering one of the reeds a whole tone.
I think it would be helpful if Brassodemolish told us more about why he needs to change something from 337Hz to 440. A4 is 440Hz, standard concert pitch, but 337Hz relates to E4 + about 38 cents.
Has he mis-typed 337Hz instead of 437? This difference relates to a more manageable 11 cents.
Brassodemolish
Member
I
Meant 437...I was using my laptop and the keys don't have backlights lol
Brassodemolish
Member
I meant 437. Up to this point I removed rust and wax from the reeds, revalved with new leather and waxed back onto the now cleaned reed blocks. So far I've tuned all the middle reeds on one block and it sounds nice, didn't take much work. The two upside down reed plates were close as everyone said, only 2 or 3 cents flat outside the accordion. After I finish the other block I might just leave the mussete reeds alone and keep them handy for spares. Also after I get the dry reeds tuned, I'm going to pull out my solder iron and using lead free solder and a different file take the tuning of the e and b notes somewhere between 44 and 32 cents flat on the push of the bellows for Arabic quartertones.
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Well spotted BP!
Oh jeez... I completely misread the 337. Even though it said 337 and I even copied that my brain know it was 437 but "didn't tell me"...
Going up from 337 to 440 would mean swapping out reeds for higher-pitched ones. Tuning up from 437 to 440 is manageable but still not good for the reeds. I tell people the following: when you bring in an accordion for tuning every 5 years (for an enthusiast amateur, not a professional concert player who does it every 6 months) some reeds will have gone of for 2 or 3 cents. Each time the accordion is tuned different reeds may have gone off by this much. To see what happens to all the reeds, let's estimate all of them need 3 cents adjustment in a period of 10 years. That means that in about 40 years all the reeds will have been "adjusted" by about as much as a single tuning job to bring the accordion up from 437 to 440. While "manageable" you are taking off about 40 years worth of "life" out of the reeds. Still... the real life span of reeds is more than double this so it's not as bad as I just made it sound.
The other thing this "calculation" tells you is that you should never buy an accordion off a professional concert player, because the reeds will see 10 times as much wear (and metal fatigue) than the accordion of an amateur. After 10 years a professional concert player may have worn out the reeds completely unless they are of exceptional strength and quality (like the reeds in some of the more legendary accordions from the 1960's).
Going up from 337 to 440 would mean swapping out reeds for higher-pitched ones. Tuning up from 437 to 440 is manageable but still not good for the reeds. I tell people the following: when you bring in an accordion for tuning every 5 years (for an enthusiast amateur, not a professional concert player who does it every 6 months) some reeds will have gone of for 2 or 3 cents. Each time the accordion is tuned different reeds may have gone off by this much. To see what happens to all the reeds, let's estimate all of them need 3 cents adjustment in a period of 10 years. That means that in about 40 years all the reeds will have been "adjusted" by about as much as a single tuning job to bring the accordion up from 437 to 440. While "manageable" you are taking off about 40 years worth of "life" out of the reeds. Still... the real life span of reeds is more than double this so it's not as bad as I just made it sound.
The other thing this "calculation" tells you is that you should never buy an accordion off a professional concert player, because the reeds will see 10 times as much wear (and metal fatigue) than the accordion of an amateur. After 10 years a professional concert player may have worn out the reeds completely unless they are of exceptional strength and quality (like the reeds in some of the more legendary accordions from the 1960's).
boxplayer4000
Prolific poster
Brassodemolish: Thanks for the correction. An easy error to make and the type which I'm sure we've all made at some point or another.
Good luck with the rest of your tuning. I think we all agree that to deal with the smallest/high reeds the reed blocks will need to be removed from the accordion.
Good luck with the rest of your tuning. I think we all agree that to deal with the smallest/high reeds the reed blocks will need to be removed from the accordion.
