tuning reeds

[Deleted member 48]

How far can accordion reeds or concertina reeds be changed in tuning ?
Can you tune it up/down a half note ?

Because Im thinking of experimenting with a 20 button or 30 button bisonoric anglo concertina, and turning it into a Pjotr Nevsky cherepashka tuning:
the diatonic notes on the right hand side, and sharps/flats on the left hand side

To give you an idea in staff notation of possible cherepashka tunings:
http://russian-garmon.ru/other-types/5116-cherepanovka-cherepashka

The Nevsky models have existed in several versions, eg a 7 buttons right + 5 buttons left version, or 8 buttons right + 5 buttons left version, or other possible combinations.

(The Warshavsky cherepashka had some basses+chords on the left hand side, as you can see in the picture of the staff notation)


If I can retune a simple anglo concertina, we could first do some experiments with possible layouts. Anglo concertinas are lightweight and similar in size as the Russian models.
Eg the Atzarin bisonoric layouts:
http://atzarin.com/eng/keyboards/bandonion/atzarin_bandonion_layout.html

 

[JIM D.]

Tuning a reed tongue a full half tone will require removing metal. This will result in a weak tongue that will not keep it's tuning in the future. Replacing the reed is the preferred method.

 

[Deleted member 48]

thank's for this information. That's what I was afraid for, that tuning it up a full half tone would risk too much damaging the reed.
The other way would be easier, adding some weight or lead, to tune it down a full half tone, that way no metal needs to be removed.

And isn't it even possible to add some weight at the foot of the reed? So, in comparison the free swinging end becomes relatively lighter? Would that be a possibility , in order to avoid scraping and removing metal?
Or am I dreaming?

I'm thinking of influencing the reed swing cycle at the foot or at the free end of the metal reed.

There are 2 possible ways to tune reeds:
scraping and removing metal / weight
adding weight at the tip or at the foot of the reed

Or is this not realistic?

 

[JIM D.]

Adding lead to the reed tongue will require heating the tongue to tin it to get the lead to adhere. This will ruin the temper of the tongue.

 

[Deleted member 48]

There must be some technology, modern or amateur, to do this, because many low bass reeds from Italian, French, German, ... accordions have a little bit of lead attached at the free swinging tip, to lower the note.
So in the factory the must be able to do this without damaging the temper and quality of the tongue/reed.

Putting lead or weight, attached at the foot (closest to the fixed point) of the tongue/reed maybe would be a bit more problematic, because that would inhibit the curving of the reed/tongue. However there may be a possibility to even do that. Eg it could be a very very short piece of lead (what you loose in length, could be added vertically. That way the tongue could still be swinging it's curve).

I'll have to keep searching for info on this subject, because of the heating factor. Or maybe other ways of adhering are possible? Special glues?

 

[Deleted member 48]

may sound very unorthodox and too messy, but glues that adhere lead to steel? Do these exist in a way they could be used for tiny accordion reeds?

Have some accordion repairers tried this before?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ARALDITE-RAPID-STEEL-ADHESIVE-STRONG/dp/B000WA9QIU#Ask
NEW ARALDITE RAPID STEEL ADHESIVE GLUE SUPER STRONG

or is this something for accordions in Disneyland ?

 

[TomBR]

I agree with Jim that replacing the reed is best if possible, but in my experience, if the reeds are in good condition to start with, then retuning up a semitone or down a whole tone is OK, but the reed may not sound as good as before. I've had reeds retuned by these amounts stand up to a couple of years playing without problems.

I've weighted reed tips with solder with no problems. The reed top surface has to be very very clean. I did it by clamping the reed plate to hold it steady with the tongue sprung upwards, putting a tiny piece of fluxed solder wire on top of the tongue, then holding the tip of the soldering iron under the reed tongue until the solder melted. The tongue was sprung upwards to give clearance using a piece of metal that I hoped also acted as a heat sink to prevent the bending part of the tongue getting too hot and losing temper, as Jim says.

Weighting the base of a reed tongue sounds very problematic. You'd effectively be aiming to immobilise the base so that you're left with a shorter reed tongue to give a higher pitch, but that is going to change the scaling (ratio of length, mass, size etc) severely. I think you'd tend to just get squeaks if you get any sound at all.

Worth trying adhesive to weight reed tips, let us know how you get on.

 

[Deleted member 48]

Thank you both for informing us on possible ways to retune.
Easiest is replacing the tongue/reed, but the problem with some (German) anglo concertinas is these ofthen have 1 piece reed plates with all the tongues mounted on a single plate.
So replacing individual reeds on a single plate is tricky, that's why I was thinking about adding weight at the tip , or at the foot of the tongue.

I will also consult two people in my area I know who have retuned accordion reeds often, to see what's possible.

And I think there must be some information on this topic available on the internet.

Both operations, scraping and adding weight on a tongue/reed, are often done on the same reed: first they adhere a little piece of lead on the tip of the reed. Then they check with the computer tuning program, and then they start scraping off some steel higher up at the foot of the tongue.
These reeds will no longer win beauty contests anymore in the reed section, but if it works for a few years, why not?

A good chapter on this on the internet could help: the 2 ways of tuning steel reeds, the "positive" approach (adding a piece of weight), or the "negative" approach (removing weight by scraping some metal)
Interesting topic also.

 

[Deleted member 48]

another amateuristic idea pops up in my head, if adding lead to the base of the tongue/reed is technically too complicated, I could go for the "reed tip" approach only.

After all, a D flat note is the same as a C sharp note.
If sharpening a C note, by adding lead to the base of the D reed (and so tuning down D to C sharp), is too complicated, well... I'll just have to put lead on the tip of the D reed, to finally get a C sharp reed. (with some extra fine tuning by scraping)

I could start on all diatonic tones, and then systematically making the tip of the reed heavier. That would avoid removing too much steel of the reeds, and the risc of losing temper.
I'll have to think first and balance my choices before bringing my anglo concertina to the accordion tuner. But I'm pretty sure it's possible.

One could use a way round the problems, both techniques (tuning down by adding weight, or tuning up by scraping) may offer some solutions.

 

[Deleted member 48]

an error slipped in my last post:
replace: "if sharpening a C note, by adding lead to the base of the D reed ...."
by: "if sharpening a C note, by adding lead to the base of the C reed (and so tuning upwards C to C sharp)...."

I just wanted to say, if you want C sharp, you can start working from C going up, or one can start working from D going down.
Depends on the situation the reed is in, and what is possible (the layout etc)

Anyhow both techniques would require precision and careful approach in handling the reeds