Tuning down from 446 to 440hz.

[Geoff de Limousin]

Reading the website of one restorer of vintage accordions here in France , where the pre-war pitch standard was 435hz, he suggests it is not a good idea to raise the diapason to 440.

But what if one has the desire to bring down the pitch ?
My friend has a very fine accordion from 1948 which is currently at 446hz. I have two of the same make (Cooperativa Armoniche. Vercelli); one from 1926 is at 435hz ( which is usefull for learning tunes by ear from pre war recordings) and the other is at 438hz and I generally get away with playing that one with other people... but it would be nice to get my friend's accordion tuned down.

What do the experts think ?

Geoff.

 

[TomBR]

No expert but I've done quite a bit of tuning, including some older accordions.
Generally it's much easier to come down in pitch than to go up.

By my reckoning 446 to 440 is about 1/4 of a semitone. Coming down that much shouldn't be a problem, but it's still a lot of work.
Tom

 

[boxplayer4000]

Take care not to get too far out of tune with the bass notes, particularly the smaller, higher pitch reeds.
I agree with TomBR; its a lot of work and possibly one which might not give an improvement commensurate with the effort put in.

 

[debra]

The first question should be how come the accordion is at 446Hz. It is quite possible the instrument was initially tuned lower than that. When considering retuning an entire instrument from 1948 I would recommend cleaning and rewaxing everything first, perhaps replacing the valves as well, and only after that starting the tuning job. Chances are the instrument will already turn out to sound at a lower pitch than 446Hz after cleaning. Tuning old, dirty reeds is generally a bad idea.

 

[TomBR]

Very good points Paul. In the OP Geoff says it's a "very fine instrument" - is it in tune with itself Geoff?

In general I'd expect old reeds to be a bit flat due to rust, gunge, etc. When I did a full refurb on my Frontalini, 1930s or before, everything was a little flat, but they were great reeds, bright and "fizzy"and cleaned and tuned up really nicely.

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Thankyou gentlemen for your responses.

before responding I thought I had better take a further look inside the box; The reeds are indeed a little dirty with small pits of rust, not much though, and my experience of dirty reeds agrees more with yours Tom, that if anything muck on reeds tends to lower their pitch slightly.

Yes it is a fine instrument in very good condition but my initial information about its date of manufacture is incorrect. From the date and serial number tampons on the reed blocks it was made, like my own, in early 1931 and the 1948 tampon appears to be the date of a major revision carried out by Victor Buzzi in Paris. Perhaps this is when the pitch was raised ? The 1931 date is only a month prior to and 14 serial numbers different to my Coope. It is interesting that both accordeons we purchased from the same man... selling his father's collection of instruments.

Looking carefully at the reeds I can see that they have been tuned up, with many of the tips of the tongues showing file or scrape marks. It is as reasonably 'in tune' with itself as can be determined with 3 voice Musette , though not perfect.

Quite why it is so high in pitch I do not know. One often finds accordeons in France that are as high as 444hz and occasionally 445hz.

I have tuned many many Concertinas over the years but I don't have a desire to re -pitch this instrument, in fact my friend has taken it today to show someone who does restore vintage accordeons.... a job for the expert I think .

As an aside to this I was very pleased to notice the name and address of Victor Buzzi because I also have a 'Buzzi Frères' CBA from 1949 which is an absolute delight to play. I would be interested if anyone has any history of the Buzzi family.

 

[tonyg]

I agree with Paul, how did it get that high? If the reeds have already been worked a lot it could be trouble. Also, you mentioned some level of rust. You need to make a very thorough assessment of the rust situation before proceeding.

Are these especially high quality hand-made reeds? Is the box of especially high quality? Re-tuning to this degree is a very big, very expensive job.

Good luck.

tonyg

 

[kimric]

Tuning can be all over the map with old PA instruments. Tuning was generally flat of a440 before the late 30's and after that there was a steady creep to instruments getting sharper, some as much as 21 cents sharp by the mid 50's.
OTOH I have had instruments from around 1900 be as much as 75 cents sharp.

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

I agree with Paul, how did it get that high? If the reeds have already been worked a lot it could be trouble. Also, you mentioned some level of rust. You need to make a very thorough assessment of the rust situation before proceeding.

Are these especially high quality hand-made reeds? Is the box of especially high quality? Re-tuning to this degree is a very big, very expensive job.

Good luck.

tonyg

The level of rust is very slight but I agree that all the reeds will need cleaning before any re-tune is considered.

Yes the quality is really up there. Cooperativa Armoniche of Vercelli are considered to be one of the finest pre war accordeon makers. The reeds are hand made on bronze frames and nailed onto the reed banks . It has four voices on the right hand, three voice musette + basson, and five voices on the bass. Although it is only an 80 bass , 3 row CBA with only one register switch ( tuning on or off the basson) the condition and originality are about as good as it is possible to find in an unrestored instrument.

But it is not my instrument and not my decision to re-pitch or not... so Ill happily leave that one to my friend and the professional tuner he consults. I am looking for opinions/ experiences here to pass on to my friend.... and to learn something myself.

The one thing I have learned from this experience is to take a pocket tuner when buying accordeons here. My very first CBA was bought from a professional dealer/ repairer and that one was in 444hz! I took it back the next day. Whilst the diapason of accordeons in France can be anything between 435 and 445hz and perhaps for many players it does not matter too much but when one wants to join with other fixed pitch instruments it is important to establish a standard. That one of the French factories continues to tune their new CBAs to 442hz but also produces Diatonic accordeons tuned to 440hz.... as if the two types will never meet In a playing context.... of course one can stipulate pitch when ordering a new instrument.

Last week, at our local bar, two accordionists I had never met before were playing together on CBAs that were clearly not tuned to the same diapason... and they play together often!

 

[donn]

My Fratelli Crosio is sure some ways north of 440Hz. But it didn't really come as huge a surprise, as I'd been playing tuba next to someone with an "Enrico Roselli" piano accordion, an inexpensive brand that was popular around here back in the day - and it was quite sharp, too. I had this notion that for whatever reason, it's more or less the rule among accordions - 442 or 443, not 440.

 

[debra]

Although all frequencies may exist by far the most instruments, especially recent ones, are either 440Hz or 442Hz. Which of these is used by default (i.e. when the customer does not ask for a tuning specifically) varies among companies. I used to play in an orchestra long ago where everyone had Crucianelli accordions. They were all 442Hz tuned by default. Then we got some Hohners which were all 440Hz tuned by default. (Newer Hohners may be different.) Pigini tunes to 442Hz by default. Bugari does 440Hz by default. Russian bayans are mostly tuned to 442Hz by default. Maybe we can compose a list? In any case, all accordion factories can make new instruments with 440, 441, 442, whatever you order *explicitly*. The biggest problem is that most buyers (even many professionals) have no idea that there is more than one default and forget to specify what they need when they order an instrumnt.

 

[JerryPH]

Is it safe to say that if you plan to play in a band or orchestra, that the A=440Hz is the better choice?

 

[debra]

Is it safe to say that if you plan to play in a band or orchestra, that the A=440Hz is the better choice?

Alas its not that simple, at least not around here.
Most amateur bands and orchestras use A=440Hz around here and complain when someone shows up with 442 (which in most cases means they show up with a Pigini, sometimes a Borsini). Some professional ensembles use A=442Hz and as a result even when a professional wants to join an amateur orchestra it requires a separate instrument to make it sound well, and when an amateur wants to be admitted in a professional ensemble its the same problem.
The exception is with older professionals who were trained when everything was 440. One of the orchestras I play in will celebrate its 65th anniversary later this year. It used to be mostly professional and is now all amateur but it has always used A=440Hz.