Treble Fingering / Importance ?

[smdc66]

a comment was made to me that I need to work on my fingering in parts on songs, i play scales but don't think the same fingering to these auto apply to fingering in songs or do they ?

is there any rule of thumbs like use finger 5 where you have to reach out, or finger 4

i know you dont want to be bouncing around all over the place with the fingers as playing wont be smooth but its difficult to change fingering to be more effective when it sometimes feels natural and fairly smooth already albeit technically wrong with fingers crossing over etc

hope question not too general

 

[Soulsaver]

This 'scale fingering' applied to a tune question has popped in my mind a few times. I suggest it does but only generally, as it will always depend on the following note/s - and how far the stretch is. An obvious example C and C an octave lower/higher - most people aint got 2 thumbs on their right hand (or left for that matter) - so it cant be a strict rule.

 

[Glenn]

I would say there is no "correct" fingering, just good and bad.
If it feels good and works well then it is OK.
Of course, if you avoid your little finger because it feels awkward or uncontrolled or weak then it is perhaps a sign that some training is in order.
Scales, boring as they are, can help there.

 

[Matt Butcher]

(I know you play piano accordion David and so this thread relates to piano accordion, I just thought it was worth mentioning that fingering on the chromatic button accordion is an endless topic and I am sure it will come up in threads of its own. Luckily though I have never seen anyone fall out over it, and I hope they wouldn't, as there are obviously so many options to choose from... the advice on the scales, arpeggios, broken chords etc. will work for any system.)

 

[Soulsaver]

Others may know better but AFAIK there are no rules, just best practice and recommendations. It is recommended to use the thumb as 'pivot' when crossing over or under, obviously.
And I believe thumb should be avoided for black keys - not sure why, prob cos the angle it addresses the key at, it's likely to catch nearby keys too.

 

[simonking]

As Glenn points out, scales are good for getting used to using all your fingers well.

When I'm trying to learn a piece, the first thing I do is try to work out sensible fingering for the whole thing. For complex pieces that jump around a lot, or with multiple melodies/voices, you may need to try a few different options in order to end up on a certain finger somewhere for the start of the next bit, so might need to work 'backwards'. Generally, it's best to stick to the same fingering every time you play, especially with a difficult piece. Don't worry about using the exact fingering from the relevant scales - most melodies don't work like that!

Piano teachers always seem to tell beginners not to use the thumb on black notes. I would pretty much ignore this advice - the fact is that you will have to (e.g. some scales, many chords, octave intervals etc.) and there is no reason why you shouldn't if it's the most sensible option.

Simon.

 

[donn]

I'm no genius at it myself, but it strikes me that it's one of those topics that can be most effectively addressed in person. Along with the actual notes that need to be traversed for a particular passage, we're looking at how fast you'd like to be going, the kind of articulation you'd want to hear, etc. So as suggested above, to a great extent each of us has to it out on a case by case basis, but ... if you have a competent player at hand who's ready to give you specific ideas for fingerings, there's no sense in discarding that in favor of the misdirected blatherings of random individuals on the internet!

 

[jarvo]

there's no sense in discarding that in favor of the misdirected blatherings of random individuals on the internet!



Does he mean US....WE... Nous......Uns etc ?!! :lol: :tup: :mrgreen:

 

[Corinto]

And I believe thumb should be avoided for black keys - not sure why, prob cos the angle it addresses the key at, its likely to catch nearby keys too.

Its best to avoid playing black notes with your thumb, so the position of your hand stays the same. Using your thumb (on black keys) means moving your wrist further into the keyboard, interrupting the flow of the music.
Karen Tweed - The Piano Accordion Absolute Beginners - page 12.

 

[simonking]

Well, maybe for beginners playing simple tunes in one hand position. But it would be more awkward then anyway, so there's no point. You really do need to a lot of the time.

 

[Anyanka]

There are times when thumb on black notes is necessary & works - on the piano accordion, but not ever on the piano. The wrist angle is different when sat at a piano. On p'accordion, try and find alternatives when possible as it does slow you down.

There are also rules about which way to cross fingers... and I'm rubbish at sticking to them...

 

[Soulsaver]

And I believe thumb should be avoided for black keys - not sure why, prob cos the angle it addresses the key at, its likely to catch nearby keys too.

Its best to avoid playing black notes with your thumb, so the position of your hand stays the same. Using your thumb (on black keys) means moving your wrist further into the keyboard, interrupting the flow of the music.
Karen Tweed - The Piano Accordion Absolute Beginners - page 12.[/quote]
Im sure thats good advice - but there will be circumstances where it wont make sense, possibly beyond beginner... but not by much.

 

[Soulsaver]

There are times when thumb on black notes is necessary & works - on the piano accordion, but not ever on the piano. The wrist angle is different when sat at a piano. On p'accordion, try and find alternatives when possible as it does slow you down.

There are also rules about which way to cross fingers... and I'm rubbish at sticking to them...

I'm not fast enough for it to slow me down...

 

[Daveg4otu]

As far as I can tell so far after 6 months of playing the PA,and a few years messing around with a melodeon....it is all down to whatever suits you best.
In many ways it is so much the same as the guitar where individuals often find ways of fingering chords that are not "by the book" but work very well for their particular style of playing....so .... IMO....whatever works for you .

 

[Glenn]

There is nothing wrong with using the thumb on black notes if it us convenient. I've had many piano teachers over the years and I've never heard that one. In fact on the accordion. It is even better as the position falls more naturally in my opinion.
How do you play a C#7 without using your thumb in a comfortable and useful manner?

 

[smdc66]

when learning some new tunes recently i am getting finger tied and wanted to revisit this topic to see if it helps

its difficult to focus on this when at the same time trying to learn the tune and also cant help thinking each time play have different fingerings for same piece

could another possible good way to view it be as follows

play whilst trying to keep hand sideways movements to a minimum thus trying to use fingers more productively

:? or have i got it wrong again with a too simplistic logic

:ugeek:

 

[dunlustin]

I'm always cautious when Authorities are quoted - that said I did read the AEB when doing Grades accepted any fingering which is coherent rather than chaotic.
When to rethink? When you wipe your brow and think "Phwaw, got away with that again!" This probably means there is a "better" way than the one you are using.
Another good guide is frantic stabbing with a single finger.

 

[Soulsaver]

Are you learning from sheet music? I annotate the sheets after working out the fingering so when I revisit it I'm using the same (optimum for me) fingering.

I don't always follow the printed suggestions in accordion method books.. because it's not best for me; never a prob with my teacher.

But fingering incorrectly on scales is a different matter ... and is problem with him.

 

[george garside]

'good' fingering requires :

flexible fingers - scale practice helps to achieve this

pinky pulling its weight - exercises to strengthen that digit may well be required for some people

the ability to cope with long jumps accurately - practice various jumps outside of tunes

pragmatism - if it works well it works well! - not getting too hung up over 'correct' fingering helps as not all tunes are written with fingering in mind!

trial and error - play through new tunes very slowly whilst experimenting with various fingerings to find easiest way

dealing with tricky bits - really tricky bits are best practiced repeatedly in isolation from the tune as a whole

george

 

[Jim the box]

I try to use all of my fingers and thumb, it sounds odd but it is easy to forget your little finger.

I have tried to play tunes in the past and found them harder than they should be and then realised that I wasn't using my little finger. :?

I takes a while to mentally adjust and strengthen it up but well worth it :tup: