Substitue "Bayan deep bass" reed block into Italian accordion

[accordmosh1]

I have played the piano accordion all my life.
Luckily, I learned ( from Aldo Mencaccini - Bell Accordion- NY)-how to take them apart , fix them and put them back together.
I have always loved the deep bass sound of the Russian bayan.

I currently have a Dallape Suprmaestro and I would like to remove the current Bass Reed Block ( 12 bass notes- one side -and 12 Tenor notes- other side) and substitute a complete Russian bayan bass block ( they call tem -"resonator).

I realize the problem with the height ( bayan bass block is taller). I can order taller bellows ( with more bellow folds- from Libery Bellows- Philadelphia, PA, USA).
The bigger problem is with geometry of the air holes at the bottom of the reed block. The Dallape bottom and the bayan bottom are probably- completely different.

Has anybody ever tried this?
Any ideas ?

Also- does anybody have a "4 reed bayan bass block" for sale ( picture attached). ?

All ideas, hint , suggestions are very welcom!

Thanks

 

[Dingo40]

Sounds like a can of worms to me, but do what you got to do.
Just don't wreck a perfectly good Dallapé!

 

[accordmosh1]

Thanks, Dingo.
That was my initial reaction.
I am told that this has brobably been done by another lunatic like me.

I am trying to find him or similar accordion adventurist.
I realize that this is Totally "out of the box".

No. I do not plan to change anything on the Dallape. Just to substitute a new Bass Reed Block for the old one ( I can always go back, if i change my mind). I still want that beautiful deep bass sound of the bayan. You can hear it , all over YouTube, or- I can send you a smple link - if you are curious.

 

[Waldo]

You'd need both halves first, but then a printed plastic adaptor to align the holes would be cheap and (possibly) effective, without altering either component.

 

[accordmosh1]

You'd need both halves first, but then a printed plastic adaptor to align the holes would be cheap and (possibly) effective, without altering either component.

Thank you for commenting. What do you mean by "both halves" ?
Yes. I will need an "adapter" to align the holes ( of the bottom of the bayan - bass reed block) so they fit the exisiting Dallape bottom plate "air windows" geometry.
Yes. I was thinking of plastic material too.
I was thinking of taking the exisiting Dallape Bass reed block, pressing it into "putty"- in order to form an 'impression" and then to pour resin mix with hardener -into the impression- so as to duplicate the bottom geometry of the Dallape - Bass Reed block gometry. This will give me the bottom part of the "Adaptor". As for the top of the Adaptor-I was thinking of aligning ( to best possibility ) the bottom holes of the "bayan - Bass reed block"-bottom- with the top of the adaptor-and drill holes on the top of the Adaptor so that I can connect the air flow from top to bottom.

Anybody have better ideas?

 

[lordzedd]

I don't know about better, but...

If I wanted to make an adapter plate of plastic, your idea of impressions might be extended to getting 3d scans of each using something like the Polycam smartphone app. You would then have an accurate model of what the "input" and "output" sides of the adapter would look like. From there, hand those off to someone who can do good 3d modeling work to make smooth connections between each corresponding input and output air pathway in as small a vertical change as possible without restricting airflow too much. Then have that fully modeled adapter plate 3d-printed like Waldo mentioned in a material that will play well with wood and accordion wax.

I don't know how to do a single one of those things. There is a lot out there on making models of ducts: . The person I associate the most with 3d printing and accordions would be Edward Jay in the UK: http://edwardjay.net/paragraphsView.aspx?siteid=38. If you get in touch with him, he might have ideas about how your goal might be achieved. I think a lot of this would depend on the layouts of the reedblocks be essentially the same except for the details of the dimensions.

Best of luck.

 

[accordmosh1]

I don't know about better, but...

If I wanted to make an adapter plate of plastic, your idea of impressions might be extended to getting 3d scans of each using something like the Polycam smartphone app. You would then have an accurate model of what the "input" and "output" sides of the adapter would look like. From there, hand those off to someone who can do good 3d modeling work to make smooth connections between each corresponding input and output air pathway in as small a vertical change as possible without restricting airflow too much. Then have that fully modeled adapter plate 3d-printed like Waldo mentioned in a material that will play well with wood and accordion wax.

I don't know how to do a single one of those things. There is a lot out there on making models of ducts: . The person I associate the most with 3d printing and accordions would be Edward Jay in the UK: http://edwardjay.net/paragraphsView.aspx?siteid=38. If you get in touch with him, he might have ideas about how your goal might be achieved. I think a lot of this would depend on the layouts of the reedblocks be essentially the same except for the details of the dimensions.

Best of luck.

Great food for thought. Thank you. I called a few 3D printing companies in my area( Florida, USA). The cost to setup scans and feed the data into their computer was to prohibitive ( over $1000) , so I am thinking of my "putty impression " and "resin/hardener- mixute - casting- quite seriously. I have bought 2 old bayans intending to use the bayan bass reed block)- thru Ebay and am waiting for their arrival from Ukraine- should take about 1 month- oy !

 

[tcabot]

There's definitely lunatics out there who would have done something like this before. I, for example, am in the process of making new reed blocks to swap a cassotto H for a cassotto M voice on my accordiola.

That bayan looks like it's a converter model. In which case chances are you won't have any luck fitting a converter-style reed blocks into a Stradella-style LHS.

Option 1: Can you fit the bayan body over your Dallape bellows? Add a sub-frame perhaps? In this case you can swap the original true Stradella LHS with the Bayan converter one.

Option 2: pull the bayan reeds, make a new reedblock for the Dallape and install it to replace the original Dallape one.

Option 3: I hear that you can custom-order bayan-style reeds from reputable Italian manufacturers. Liberty Bellows must be a distributor for some of the reed makers on your side of the pond. Should not be too expensive, and will be leagues better than a budget Sovietsky bayan reed made from a car suspension spring offcut...

Don't mean to sound like a party pooper and I mean no offence, but that bayan looks a bit low end to me... I'd doubt the quality of those reeds to be honest. And I personally would think twice before replacing the top-of-the-line Dallape reeds with jobbies from a Soviet factory...

PS I wish I had a supermaestro...Had a chance to buy a very well-worn one cheap recently and while I was considering all the pros and cons of a flat vs stepped 6-row keyboard, somebody else bought it.

 

[debra]

I have played the piano accordion all my life.
Luckily, I learned ( from Aldo Mencaccini - Bell Accordion- NY)-how to take them apart , fix them and put them back together.
I have always loved the deep bass sound of the Russian bayan.

I currently have a Dallape Suprmaestro and I would like to remove the current Bass Reed Block ( 12 bass notes- one side -and 12 Tenor notes- other side) and substitute a complete Russian bayan bass block ( they call tem -"resonator).

I realize the problem with the height ( bayan bass block is taller). I can order taller bellows ( with more bellow folds- from Libery Bellows- Philadelphia, PA, USA).
The bigger problem is with geometry of the air holes at the bottom of the reed block. The Dallape bottom and the bayan bottom are probably- completely different.

Has anybody ever tried this?
Any ideas ?

Also- does anybody have a "4 reed bayan bass block" for sale ( picture attached). ?

All ideas, hint , suggestions are very welcom!

Thanks

You are very fortunate to have learned accordion repair from Aldo Mencaccini!

For what you want you don't need a 4 reed bayan bass block. You just need a 2 reed bass block (bass on one side, tenor on the other side). An Italian accordion takes the higher reed for the base notes from the reeds used for chords, so it doesn't need them on the bass block.

Before you panic about what could be needed, I'd first investigate the note distance on the different reed blocks. Accordions use a lot of common, standard parts, like soundboards and register sliders. The result is that the distances between holes in reed blocks are often the same as they need to coincide with the distances of the holes in the soundboards and sliders. They are not all identical, but generally less different than you might suspect.

If you can get over the language issues you might be able to communicate with Novikov from "mirbajana". He has replaced the bass reeds from a Vignoni by a large bayan reed plate and knows what this involves.

 

[accordmosh1]

You are very fortunate to have learned accordion repair from Aldo Mencaccini!

For what you want you don't need a 4 reed bayan bass block. You just need a 2 reed bass block (bass on one side, tenor on the other side). An Italian accordion takes the higher reed for the base notes from the reeds used for chords, so it doesn't need them on the bass block.

Before you panic about what could be needed, I'd first investigate the note distance on the different reed blocks. Accordions use a lot of common, standard parts, like soundboards and register sliders. The result is that the distances between holes in reed blocks are often the same as they need to coincide with the distances of the holes in the soundboards and sliders. They are not all identical, but generally less different than you might suspect.
firm and the repair namIf you can get over the language issues you might be able to communicate with Novikov from "mirbajana". He has replaced the bass reeds from a Vignoni by a large bayan reed plate and knows what this involves.

Got it, Paul. Thanks again. You put me on a great path !
I found the firm and the repair man. - Evgeny Novikov's workshop (https://zenano.com.ua/).

• Address: st. Berezneva (Martovskaya) 30, Kyiv, Ukraine
• Email: zenanoaccordion@gmail.com

I just sent him a long e mail. Let's wait and see.

 

[Mr Mark]

Great food for thought. Thank you. I called a few 3D printing companies in my area( Florida, USA). The cost to setup scans and feed the data into their computer was to prohibitive ( over $1000) , so I am thinking of my "putty impression " and "resin/hardener- mixute - casting- quite seriously. I have bought 2 old bayans intending to use the bayan bass reed block)- thru Ebay and am waiting for their arrival from Ukraine- should take about 1 month- oy !

I have had limited success with simply buying a 3D printer myself and figuring it out. I have printed sliders to great success and at least (half) of a reed block (the printer is too small for a full reedblock). With the slides I had to create them in FREECAD, and to do this I drew it on paper first and measured with some simple calipers and measuring devices. A bit of trial and error but at the time (a year ago) the cost was way less than $1000. In fact I see the same printer on Amazon for $209 CAD. All the software is free. The time to learn is the expensive part.

I have a similar idea but it probably won't work...looking to swap a set of Terzotto or Harmony reeds in place of some deactivated piccolo reeds in the bass section. I say it probably wont work as I suspect the space is too limited and the reeds will be flailing against the bellows...that and the question of having enough airflow for the bigger reeds have kept this project on the drawing board...for now.

 

[debra]

...
Here, too, a Scandalli Super VI Extreme, it already came with voices from E1, and I transformed the big block into an L shape, and the sound changed a lot.
In an L shape, it greatly increases the resonance, as the tongues (reeds) vibrate parallel to the table where the redblok rests.

Actually the sound changes not because of the orientation of the reeds but because the "tubes" the sound/air for each reed now goes through acts a bit like a cassotto, amplifying the sound. (It's a bit like the bass reflex on some audio speakers.)

 

[accordmosh1]

Thanks again, Paul. You score again !
As you correctly suggested, I was hoping to only use the one large , double sided bayan base reed block, knowing that in the in the "full base mode" on the Dallape, the chord reeds are also used for the bass notes ( not on the Russian bayan). My problem was to either use an existing, taller- bayan bass reed block and try to match the bottom holes to the base plate of the Dallape, or- try to find ( have someone build for me -who??) a new, taller reed block with the bottom resonator windows - matching the Dallape base plate and transplant the bayan bass reeds ( 12 on each side ) onto the new taller bass reed block.
I will still will need a new bellow with more folds- so as to allow for the extra height of the new reed block-or- have Novikov build for me an L shaped new reed block ( with the right Dallape bass plate geometry and have him transplant the bayan reeds onto this new L shaped bass reed block that he may build for me. Then , with the new L shaped bass reed block I may not need new , higher bellows. All depends on Novikov and his cost .

Actually the sound changes not because of the orientation of the reeds but because the "tubes" the sound/air for each reed now goes through acts a bit like a cassotto, amplifying the sound. (It's a bit like the bass reflex on some audio speakers.)

Hi Paul,
L shaped reed block with more resonance, you say,
Hmmmmmmmm.
Any idea where I can get such a "12+12 reed L shaped bass reed block"- built - to my specific measurements ? ( Or - buy a used one and re- shape it, myself?)

 

[tcabot]

Zenano, mentioned earlier, offers custom reed block making services, and he's got a supermaestro for sale at the moment (so potentially already knows your desired rosette pattern).

He can probably sort you out with a mano bayan bass reeds too.

 

[debra]

...
Hmmmmmmmm.
Any idea where I can get such a "12+12 reed L shaped bass reed block"- built - to my specific measurements ? ( Or - buy a used one and re- shape it, myself?)

So far all the people who posted replacing a regular (12+12) bass block with a Winkelbaß (L shaped bass block) have made their own new reed block. My woodworking skills are certainly not good enough to do this. I did get some scrap accordions from friends but sadly none with a Winkelbaß. Some much more skilled repairers (like for instance Nino Lefevre from Belgium) have a zillion tools and machines to do such work but most don't.

 

[accordmosh1]

Thanks Paul-for the thought
I am thinking of either buying a cheap junk accordion , on Ebay, and see if I can "cannibalize" the bass reed block, try to rework it , with the help of some neighbors , who do wood-work - in their retired , spare time.
Initially, however, I am hopeful that my repair buddy, Guenadiy - may have a few bass reed blocks for me.
Surprisingly, I never heard from Novikov. I am still considering buying from him the entire left side of a Yasnaya Poliana bayan ( if he ever responds).

If anybody out there has any Russian bayan bass reed block ( resonator) components for sale- please contact me.

Thanks

 

[accordmosh1]

Hello accordion mates,
I just received the "old bayan reed block set_ that I bought form Ukraine. See attached pictures.
As you can see, the Bass reed block cluster is made of 3 wooden reed blocks (resonators) , glued together. They also must have been glued to the bayan left hand compartment "floor" since they seem to be ripped away, with parts of the bottom- missing.
My intent is to cut away the side two , (smaller) , reed blocks and only keep the big- center-double sided reed block.
My next problem is-
1. How do I clean and renovate the rusty reeds (especially the side of the rusty reed that resides INSIDE the aluminium reed plate) . How do I reach the bottom of that side of the reed- without bending it too much and inadvertently breaking it ????
2. If I am to use this 2 sided- bayan big reed block- on my Dallape Supermaestro, I must re- arrange the order of the reeds to fit the Dallape base plate- order of "note assignments". The Dallape bass "left -most-note" is low C ( C2) and also-the pitch goes UP-as I move to the right of the Dallape-"bass reed block"- ( "right-most bass note is B2") . Currently, the Bayan reed block left-most note is E2 and the pitch goes DOWN as I move to the right. The bayan reed block "right- most Bass note" is F1( lowest bayan bass note). Bottom line- The order of bass notes on both bass blocks ( moving from left to right ) is opposite. OY!
So, if I am to use the "bayan bass reed block" , I must shift the bayan bass reed plates around , carve out larger windows - (to accommodate the larger reeds plates) and fill up some of the larger windows -on the bayan reed block-so as to accommodate the smaller reed plates. Any suggestions as to what kind of material I should use to fill up the larger windows ( Bees wax, wood filler, hardened epoxy-??)

 

[JerryPH]

Wow, those look huge! OK, while I know nothing about nothing in this kind of endeavor, it terms of making holes bigger that's not a big problem, but I am sure it comes with it's own set of challenges. However, when discussing making big holes smaller, I'd be very careful. Every reed needs a ton of air to move and if the box cannot give them what it needs due to restriction, decrease in airflow channels or too many kinks (remember, air velocity drops 50% for every 90 degree bend... at least that is the rule for flow concerning automotive exhaust... lol) and low velocity means a partial or no functioning setup... and those big reeds need a lot of air to be budged.

 

[accordmosh1]

Just sharing an update to my " Wild goose Chase" project of substituting Bayan reeds into my Dallape Supermaestro accordion.
I have disected the bayan "3 bass reed block" cluster, and separared the 3 reed blocks. ( see pictures -attached). As Paul correctly suggested, I only need the center ( double sided ) reed block- 12 Bass reeds-one side, 12- Tenor reeds- other side. As luck would have it, the "windows into the the resonator chambers"- geometry happens to match quite closely with the Dallape reed block ( see pictures-IMG_20230227_091811) !! I have also removed the bayan rusty reeds. They are presently soaking in a rust remover bath ( using - Evapo-Rust). When they come out , I plan to use a steel brush to clean up the remaining rust. Does anybody see a problem with that ? Then , I plan to glue back the original valves ( reversing them- so as to use the cleaner side)-with the boosters and tune the reeds. Instead of the old rusty boosters - I plan to use my B guitar string (18 AWG).
Can anyone recommend a good free Tuner App that I can download into my Android cell phone ? I have "Pano -Tuner app but I am not too happy with it. I need to see "tunning" accuracy pointer and also "cents"- detuning -number. Again, i welcome all inputs and suggestions

 

[Mockie]

I have played the piano accordion all my life.
Luckily, I learned ( from Aldo Mencaccini - Bell Accordion- NY)-how to take them apart , fix them and put them back together.
I have always loved the deep bass sound of the Russian bayan.

I currently have a Dallape Suprmaestro and I would like to remove the current Bass Reed Block ( 12 bass notes- one side -and 12 Tenor notes- other side) and substitute a complete Russian bayan bass block ( they call tem -"resonator).

I realize the problem with the height ( bayan bass block is taller). I can order taller bellows ( with more bellow folds- from Libery Bellows- Philadelphia, PA, USA).
The bigger problem is with geometry of the air holes at the bottom of the reed block. The Dallape bottom and the bayan bottom are probably- completely different.

Has anybody ever tried this?
Any ideas ?

Also- does anybody have a "4 reed bayan bass block" for sale ( picture attached). ?

All ideas, hint , suggestions are very welcom!

Thanks

Just sharing an update to my " Wild goose Chase" project of substituting Bayan reeds into my Dallape Supermaestro accordion.
I have disected the bayan "3 bass reed block" cluster, and separared the 3 reed blocks. ( see pictures -attached). As Paul correctly suggested, I only need the center ( double sided ) reed block- 12 Bass reeds-one side, 12- Tenor reeds- other side. As luck would have it, the "windows into the the resonator chambers"- geometry happens to match quite closely with the Dallape reed block ( see pictures-IMG_20230227_091811) !! I have also removed the bayan rusty reeds. They are presently soaking in a rust remover bath ( using - Evapo-Rust). When they come out , I plan to use a steel brush to clean up the remaining rust. Does anybody see a problem with that ? Then , I plan to glue back the original valves ( reversing them- so as to use the cleaner side)-with the boosters and tune the reeds. Instead of the old rusty boosters - I plan to use my B guitar string (18 AWG).
Can anyone recommend a good free Tuner App that I can download into my Android cell phone ? I have "Pano -Tuner app but I am not too happy with it. I need to see "tunning" accuracy pointer and also "cents"- detuning -number. Again, i welcome all inputs and suggestions

Sounds like a Frankenstein job, 'interfering nature'