Should I be learning CBA?

[Rosie C]

Hmm, I've much to think over at the moment. I started out playing melodeon but quickly decided that the time it would take to learn to play well would be limited to folk music in a small number of keys. Not knowing such a thing as a CBA existed I plumbed for piano accordion, initially a cheap 12 bass then a pair of Hohner 72 bass models. We had a wassail on Saturday - accompanying dancers at a number of locations around town. Carrying my instrument all the time and on my feet 6-7 hours. Sadly I opted to play mandocello as it's only maybe 2lbs and slings over my back. But that wasn't the point of learning PA - to leave it at home on the biggest folk event in our calendar.

Then this morning I've read a comment by @dak about the Amati IIIM CBA, and I recalled a poll by Tom about how many keys we typically play in - to which I answered 5 - F, C, G, D, A. I got a 72 bass so I could play in all keys. I had hoped to join a local Oktoberfest band, which would have meant playing in Eb, Ab etc. but there seems to be a thread of anti-accordion feeling there.

So I find myself looking at the photo of the Amati and thinking that 5 or 6 months in, maybe I should be learning CBA instead of PA. Or maybe I just need a cheap 12-bass PA to take to outdoor events. Or maybe I need to hit the gym and stop moaning about the Hohner being so heavy!

 

[dak]

We had a wassail on Saturday - accompanying dancers at a number of locations around town. Carrying my instrument all the time and on my feet 6-7 hours. Sadly I opted to play mandocello as it's only maybe 2lbs and slings over my back. But that wasn't the point of learning PA - to leave it at home on the biggest folk event in our calendar.

6–7 hours will likely warrant comparatively good straps with any kind of accordion.

Then this morning I've read a comment by @dak about the Amati IIIM CBA, and I recalled a poll by Tom about how many keys we typically play in - to which I answered 5 - F, C, G, D, A. I got a 72 bass so I could play in all keys.

Ok, cross your heart and hope to die: what's with B minor? If that's a semi-frequent occurence with your music, the 48-bass will not deliver the chord. In contrast, the bass set is complete (due to the counterbass row) but of course comes with some awkwardness if you need to "wrap around" and/or jump to an "unrelated" counterbass. The jumping distance is not all that large: one can manage with practiced pieces.

I had hoped to join a local Oktoberfest band, which would have meant playing in Eb, Ab etc. but there seems to be a thread of anti-accordion feeling there.

A♭ again is out on the 48bass. Of course it depends on whether you are allowed to play bass/chord at all.

So I find myself looking at the photo of the Amati and thinking that 5 or 6 months in, maybe I should be learning CBA instead of PA. Or maybe I just need a cheap 12-bass PA to take to outdoor events. Or maybe I need to hit the gym and stop moaning about the Hohner being so heavy!

With CBA fingering, there is also the accordina. It doesn't have the toy look of its PA cousin, the melodica, and is reasonably light as it does not carry the bass side which you might not be wanted for in a band setting.

I hung the Amati IIIM off a bale scale. If I add back in the pound that it is showing in the negative without weight, the Amati clocks in at 6kg. That's not really melodeon weight I'll admit, but you are a lot more flexible regarding the keys you can play in.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Learning, orcattempting to learn, CBA seems to be a trend, at least here. But trends don’t have to dictate what an individual wants or needs. You should make a list, at least mentally, of the advantages and disadvantages of learning CBA AS YOU SEE IT in your current state of development with PA and answer that question for yourself.

 

[Ben-jammin]

I believe the consensus is the cba design is an improvement over the pa for its layout making key translations easier and more notes to height of instrument. For those reasons I think it makes sense to consider switching.

I’m less sure if the weight factor would be a significant improvement for a given feature set. If left hand accompaniment is being used the key range is more determined by the left hand arrangement. I know it’s not a universal opinion but I would like more rows than strictly the ones needed for the keys I expect to play so I’m not making big jumps for bass runs when I am on the ends of a smaller layout.

 

[Tom]

Hmm, I've much to think over at the moment. I started out playing melodeon but quickly decided that the time it would take to learn to play well would be limited to folk music in a small number of keys. Not knowing such a thing as a CBA existed I plumbed for piano accordion, initially a cheap 12 bass then a pair of Hohner 72 bass models. We had a wassail on Saturday - accompanying dancers at a number of locations around town. Carrying my instrument all the time and on my feet 6-7 hours. Sadly I opted to play mandocello as it's only maybe 2lbs and slings over my back. But that wasn't the point of learning PA - to leave it at home on the biggest folk event in our calendar.

Then this morning I've read a comment by @dak about the Amati IIIM CBA, and I recalled a poll by Tom about how many keys we typically play in - to which I answered 5 - F, C, G, D, A. I got a 72 bass so I could play in all keys. I had hoped to join a local Oktoberfest band, which would have meant playing in Eb, Ab etc. but there seems to be a thread of anti-accordion feeling there.

So I find myself looking at the photo of the Amati and thinking that 5 or 6 months in, maybe I should be learning CBA instead of PA. Or maybe I just need a cheap 12-bass PA to take to outdoor events. Or maybe I need to hit the gym and stop moaning about the Hohner being so heavy!

Sounds like it was a good day, Rosie! I can’t say offhand that the weight difference between your 72 bass and a small CBA would be enough to make a big difference over 6 - 7 hours. That’s a lot of accordion carrying. Plus I imagine you already have good straps and a back strap.

Maybe you could consider playing some accordion and some mandocello on the long days? Or look out for a light, 2 treble voice 48 bass pa, and play mostly bass/counter bass when needed?

I believe you could make the switch to CBA if you wanted to. Seems like it should be done out of desire to play CBA, though, not weight.

Only you know what is best for you and I hope it works out. It’s been fun following your journey.

 

[Ventura]

how would switching to a button box affect your potential
to play from memory and by ear ?
(things you also have an interest in)

i don't have a clue because to me, Piano Keys, the notes go up
in that direction and go down in the other, so anything i hear
is pretty easy to guess where to find it since up and down
is a concept that fit inside my head easily..

can buttons be just as easy for stuff like that ?
or do you really need to memorize where all the notes are
on top of memorizing what notes to play

 

[dak]

how would switching to a button box affect your potential
to play from memory and by ear ?
(things you also have an interest in)

i don't have a clue because to me, Piano Keys, the notes go up
in that direction and go down in the other, so anything i hear
is pretty easy to guess where to find it since up and down
is a concept that fit inside my head easily..

CBA goes up one direction and down the other as well (incidentally, the same direction as with a PA). When everything is in C Major, the piano accordion is conceptually simpler, but then a melodeon might do the trick as well.

For playing by ear, CBA is better than PA once you cannot expect a particular key. For playing from memory, PA repertoire and CBA repertoire will be completely separate (you have to relearn everything) unless you are playing both at a level where you wouldn't be asking such questions.

can buttons be just as easy for stuff like that ?
or do you really need to memorize where all the notes are
on top of memorizing what notes to play

Not sure how you memorize things. The note-to-button map mostly comes into play when playing from score sheets. My fingers remember more what they do than what note they play on either instrument. The left hand memory tends to be bothered more with note names, maybe because it tends to jump around more. But they still come mostly into play when setting up to play.

PostScriptum: this is super embarrassing. I took the Amati up and checked how it plays using several bars from my current workpiece, and it was really awkward regarding the hand angle, like almost a different instrument than my normal C system instrument. I finally figured out that it might work better by putting the treble side on the right and the bass side on the left.

What that says about how I memorize what notes to play, I have no idea. Probably nothing good.

 

[Rosie C]

So many replies, thank you!

Ok, cross your heart and hope to die: what's with B minor? If that's a semi-frequent occurence with your music, the 48-bass will not deliver the chord.

I checked, in our 20 dance repertoire there are two dances in the key of Em and they feature Bm chords. I might be able to substitute G, but
a B note on the counter row could work.

A♭ again is out on the 48bass. Of course it depends on whether you are allowed to play bass/chord at all.

Having reflected, I think if they were keen for an accordion they'd have said something like "you've missed the rehearsals for this year, but we'll give you a shout next summer".

With CBA fingering, there is also the accordina. It doesn't have the toy look of its PA cousin, the melodica, and is reasonably light as it does not carry the bass side which you might not be wanted for in a band setting.

I hung the Amati IIIM off a bale scale. If I add back in the pound that it is showing in the negative without weight, the Amati clocks in at 6kg. That's not really melodeon weight I'll admit, but you are a lot more flexible regarding the keys you can play in.

Thanks! Not as much weight saving as I'd like, but 1kg all day would be noticeable.

Learning, orcattempting to learn, CBA seems to be a trend, at least here. But trends don’t have to dictate what an individual wants or needs. You should make a list, at least mentally, of the advantages and disadvantages of learning CBA AS YOU SEE IT in your current state of development with PA and answer that question for yourself.

I like the idea of making a list! Great idea!

I believe the consensus is the cba design is an improvement over the pa for its layout making key translations easier and more notes to height of instrument. For those reasons I think it makes sense to consider switching.

I’m less sure if the weight factor would be a significant improvement for a given feature set. If left hand accompaniment is being used the key range is more determined by the left hand arrangement. I know it’s not a universal opinion but I would like more rows than strictly the ones needed for the keys I expect to play so I’m not making big jumps for bass runs when I am on the ends of a smaller layout.

Our band leader plays the melody line on violin or mandolin, so mainly I focus on chords and bass accompaniment.

Sounds like it was a good day, Rosie! I can’t say offhand that the weight difference between your 72 bass and a small CBA would be enough to make a big difference over 6 - 7 hours. That’s a lot of accordion carrying. Plus I imagine you already have good straps and a back strap.

Maybe you could consider playing some accordion and some mandocello on the long days? Or look out for a light, 2 treble voice 48 bass pa, and play mostly bass/counter bass when needed?

I believe you could make the switch to CBA if you wanted to. Seems like it should be done out of desire to play CBA, though, not weight.

Only you know what is best for you and I hope it works out. It’s been fun following your journey.

Thanks Tom. Certainly accordion and mandocello could work. But I will need a trolley to haul everything around. It's a thought though.
Regarding CBA, it's not just the weight. A PA with fewer bass notes and smaller keyboard would tick a lot of the boxes. There's also a style thing too. It's easy during winter practice to think I'll buck the trend and not play melodeon, but on Saturday there were 9 Morris sides on Saturday and nearly all had a melodeon player. No PAs! Of course I can just work on my playing technique and dress boldly and be known as the crazy lady who plays PA at Morris events. I suppose another thing I'm thinking is I'm only 6 months in. In 5 years time that will be very distant, and in any case most of what I've been working on is the stradella. (NB: I have no plans to move to free bass, the stradella just works too well for what I play)

how would switching to a button box affect your potential
to play from memory and by ear ?
(things you also have an interest in)
...
can buttons be just as easy for stuff like that ?
or do you really need to memorize where all the notes are
on top of memorizing what notes to play

An interesting question. I know that I can learn tunes on accordion, recorder or viola, then be able to play them on one of the other instruments straight away from memory. So I'm not remembering finger positions.

 

[Ventura]

interesting

i had been wondering, but other than poking a bit
on the old Tula Mechta bayan in a clueless way, really
had no curiousity until all the different discussions you
all have about buttons and related stuff

 

[Tom]

Lots and lots of people play melodeon and accordion. ….just sayin’….

I have a beautiful B griff I gotta get to one of these days. Got plenty of free basses in the Roland. So many systems, so little time…..

 

[dunlustin]

Don't know if still out there but 48 LH Stradella used to exist as 4 X 12 (and not 8 X 6) so all keys
This drops the '7th' and 'dim' rows - not a big problem for (at least) Folky stuff.

 

[dak]

Don't know if still out there but 48 LH Stradella used to exist as 4 X 12 (and not 8 X 6) so all keys
This drops the '7th' and 'dim' rows - not a big problem for (at least) Folky stuff.

Frankly I don't know the point of those smaller sizes: the smallest size Stradella already needs all bass and all chord notes. More buttons just add more mechanics, but not more reeds. So there really is little point in not filling up the bass side with enough buttons to cover the available area.

 

[Squeezebox Of Delights]

As always I will sing the praises of the Hohner Imperial range. The Imperial III has 48 bass arranged 4x12, and 34 treble keys, but the keyboard is only 35cm so the entire thing is very compact. In fact, I think it's probably got the best amount-of-accordion-to-size-of-accordion ratio out there. They come up for sale every now and again, but they're obviously all 1940s or earlier so may need some work. I have a Rauner Regent which is a similar box built in Saxony, and it's amazing how small and light it is. I can't comment on how it plays though, because it's in very poor shape : (

 

[brna]

how would switching to a button box affect your potential
to play from memory and by ear ?
(things you also have an interest in)

I play several quite different instruments and at some party I sometimes switch instruments depending on the target song. I'm less confused if I don't even think about where a note is, but just relatively try to play the right scale.
I was hoping that by playing multiple instruments I would be able to play the melody directly from my head, but most of the memory is still in my fingers. For fast songs, this is probably the only way.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Hmm, I've much to think over at the moment. I started out playing melodeon but quickly decided that the time it would take to learn to play well would be limited to folk music in a small number of keys. Not knowing such a thing as a CBA existed I plumbed for piano accordion, initially a cheap 12 bass then a pair of Hohner 72 bass models. We had a wassail on Saturday - accompanying dancers at a number of locations around town. Carrying my instrument all the time and on my feet 6-7 hours. Sadly I opted to play mandocello as it's only maybe 2lbs and slings over my back. But that wasn't the point of learning PA - to leave it at home on the biggest folk event in our calendar.

Then this morning I've read a comment by @dak about the Amati IIIM CBA, and I recalled a poll by Tom about how many keys we typically play in - to which I answered 5 - F, C, G, D, A. I got a 72 bass so I could play in all keys. I had hoped to join a local Oktoberfest band, which would have meant playing in Eb, Ab etc. but there seems to be a thread of anti-accordion feeling there.

So I find myself looking at the photo of the Amati and thinking that 5 or 6 months in, maybe I should be learning CBA instead of PA. Or maybe I just need a cheap 12-bass PA to take to outdoor events. Or maybe I need to hit the gym and stop moaning about the Hohner being so heavy!

Just so I understand--Are you wondering about CBA based on weight concerns? Or playing-in-all-keys concerns? Or both? I'm reading both concerns to be involved here, but feel free to set me straight if I've not grokked it right.

Starting with Weight: If I recall correctly, your Hohners are a 2-voice MM and a 3-voice LMM, right?

a. 3-Voice CBAs: You won't get a 3-voice LMM CBA weighing less than an LMM Hohner Concerto III. Some weigh more, actually. Well, the Saltarelle and Castagnari LMM CBAs might be around 7 kg, so a tad lighter than a Concerto III . . . but at shocking, eye-watering prices. The 7 kg Saltarelle Bourroche LMM is $8,000.00 US and it doesn't even have a bass register.

b. 2-Voice: I'm guesstimating a Hohner Concerto II MM 34/72 weighs about 14.5 to 15 pounds (6.577 kg to 6.8 kg), so . . .

30 Key MM PAs: An Italian 30-key would probly weigh close to your Concerto II. The little Weltmeister 30/60 Rubin 2-voice MM with slimmer keys in a 26-key size chassis is billed at 6.0 kg (12.6 lbs). Figure 6.3-ish kg. You could try one of these? Emilio always has them, I think.

26 Key MM PAs: A good Italian 26-key will of course be smaller in dimensions than your Concerto II. But some of the ones with classic, thick, sturdy-chassis Italian construction might not feel like they weigh much less, even with 48 basses. I had a Bugari 26/48 for about six months--it had a big, sturdy, thick chassis and it wasn't really "light" feeling. But a Weltmeister Perle 26/48 or an Asian Hohner Bravo 26/48 might indeed feel somewhat lighter. Maybe about 5.5 kg.

MM CBAs: The smallest, lightest MM CBA I know of that is still audible for an outdoor band setting is the unique 31-treble 3-row/48bass Asian Hohner Bravo II 48. 5 to 5.2 kg-ish. I bought one specifically to play at outdoor festivals involving dragging stuff across huge parking lots and around the fair between booth tent to stages and back, etc. It's so light and it does everything I need . . . for that specific use-case.

I've only seen Italian MM CBAs with 72 or 60 basses. The Pigini Preludio C30 72-bass is around 6 KG, the Asian Hohner Nova II 60A 4-row weighs about the same. The Weltmeister Romance MM model 72-bass weighs more than those. Around 7KG.

 

[TomBR]

Lots of good replies already. A few thoughts
I assume you weren't in playing mode all day - get a nice trolley/shopping trolley/"folding sack truck" to carry your accordion from stand to stand?
PA - round here, S/W Oxfordshire there's nothing remarkable or unusual about people playing PA for morris.
Weight - I don't think weight saving is a convincing reason to change to CBA - there are very few significantly lighter CBAs. A Loffet box maybe, but rare! (There are good reasons to change to CBA, but weight isn't one of them!)
B minor - If you have an 8 x 6 48 bass you have all the reeds in there, it's just a matter of getting someone to move them all along one place and to move the indented C button. You gain a B row but you lose your Eb row (I think.)
Lighter PAs - how about that little Weltmeister with slightly small piano keys - I can't remember what it's called.

 

[Rosie C]

Just so I understand--Are you wondering about CBA based on weight concerns? Or playing-in-all-keys concerns? Or both? I'm reading both concerns to be involved here, but feel free to set me straight if I'm not understanding.

1. Weight: If I recall correctly, your Hohners are a 2-voice MM and a 3-voice LMM, right?

a. 3-Voice:You won't get a 3-voice LMM CBA weighing less than an LMM Hohner Concerto III.

I suppose my thinking started from seeing the photo of the Amati and thinking it was more like a melodeon than a PA is. More in keeping perhaps. In parallel I was thinking that while my Hohners are great for indoor events, for outdoor mobile events perhaps I've made an error in not having a smaller instrument.
The two things are separate really. I don't need a lot of voices, an MM with wet tuning would be enough for an outdoor event.

Yes - I have a MM and an LMM Hohner. The MM has a slightly smaller keyboard so I've not played it recently as I was trying to adapt to the LMM. That said, it would have been an option on Saturday - but I didn't think of it at the time.

 

[Rosie C]

Lots of good replies already. A few thoughts
I assume you weren't in playing mode all day - get a nice trolley/shopping trolley/"folding sack truck" to carry your accordion from stand to stand?
PA - round here, S/W Oxfordshire there's nothing remarkable or unusual about people playing PA for morris.
Weight - I don't think weight saving is a convincing reason to change to CBA - there are very few significantly lighter CBAs. A Loffet box maybe, but rare! (There are good reasons to change to CBA, but weight isn't one of them!)
B minor - If you have an 8 x 6 48 bass you have all the reeds in there, it's just a matter of getting someone to move them all along one place and to move the indented C button. You gain a B row but you lose your Eb row (I think.)
Lighter PAs - how about that little Weltmeister with slightly small piano keys - I can't remember what it's called.

Ruben or something?

The format was there were 9 sides. We split up into groups of three and had three areas around town. Within our three we'd do a dance each, for about 45 minutes. Then we'd move to another location and meet up with two other sides. So yes, there was a 15 minute changeover when I could move it with a trolley. Also I could take a folding chair and sit with it on my lap when I'm not playing.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Playing in all keys:

PA: How often does the music you play reach below the "middle B" that is the lowest note on a 26-key PA? It would be frustrating to downsize to a 26 only to find you are often playing music that really needs to be able to go down to "fiddle G," as on a 30-key or a 34.
I can do Irish trad fine and dandy on a 26/48 PA. The small minority of tunes that go below "middle B" might hit a note lower than that but they don't linger. So one can arrange around a missing note. But Scottish, klezmer/Balkan, Paris musette, Quebecois . . . some of these tunes linger below the "middle B" that is the lowest note on a 26-key. For that, I sometimes use an LMM 26/60 with the LM or LMM switch in play, keeping my hand in the range where I do have enough keys. But with a 3-voice 26-key your weight goes back up to the range of your 2-voice MM 34-key Concerto II.

CBA: An MM CBA with 30 notes lets you play in any key whatsoever with no black-key awkwardness in a smaller keyboard size than on a 30 or 34 key PA. But see, the weight considerations in my post above.

Basses (PA and CBA): How important is it for your use-case to have complete basses? In a band setting, do you need basses at all? Though, IIRC, some of your audio samples here have consisted of you providing basses and chords? If this is often your role . . . really, seems to me you want a bass setup that goes 12 across with at minimum major and minors, as with a 12X4. Though Artful Dodgers certainly manage most folk music with an 8X6. A 60-bass might be a nice compromise. I just don't know how much weight it shaves off for you.

If you thought 26 treble could suffice, there is the Hohner Starlet 26/40 PA. Renowned for its light weight:

 

[OuijaBoard]

Another thought:


Honestly, if weight and bulk are really getting to you . . . you might consider English Concertina. Seriously. I believe in the folk use-cases you've described here, EC is welcomed and loved. They are light, portable, and playable in all keys. Huge chordal possibilities as well. Classic Morris instruments, too! The system is no harder to learn than CBA, and you could keep your PAs in your life.