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Bill V
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The LH has Gm chords,playing accordion chords the Bb be included .Is this a piano copy or in American accordion notation[they don't write out the chord in full.]
Scales - I'm still confused!
- Thread starter knobby
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quote
"The LH has Gm chords" - can't see a C does that mean you'd question the Am chord?
quote
".Is this in American accordion notation" "Copyright New York" is a bit of a give-away.
The tune could be seen as having a gapped scale - unlikely to have been written for accordion so I reckon anything that keeps the minor feel is valid.
And you may well be playing an instrument that can remove the Thirds on the L-hand.
"The LH has Gm chords" - can't see a C does that mean you'd question the Am chord?
quote
".Is this in American accordion notation" "Copyright New York" is a bit of a give-away.
The tune could be seen as having a gapped scale - unlikely to have been written for accordion so I reckon anything that keeps the minor feel is valid.
And you may well be playing an instrument that can remove the Thirds on the L-hand.
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Bill V
Guest
Written as it is suggests a piano copy,I tried it with a single note bass as I can't manage stride piano on my accordion,[full bass register gives you a few octaves]it retains the minor feel,seems equally ok with accordion chords.For those interested the American Accordion Association on google tells you about their accordion notation .I am quite happy with the Am chord in fact with all of them,is their a problem?
donn
Prolific poster
Bill V said:
Dont know, but if I had to guess Id say someone added chords to a piano arrangement. In any case, the chords likely werent called out the composer! But indeed, the Gm chords are a perfect test of whether theres a Bb in the scale. Compare with G major and see which sounds right, if its Gm then theres a Bb.
There are many types of music which have gapped scales. The best known is probably the Pentatonic.
If a note is absent, how do you know if it is supposed to be there. Some would argue that the Gm does not respect the gapped scale as if Bb is never in the melody, it shouldn't be in the accompaniment.
I think that's a bit strong but it's an argument - and then the Gm could be a misprint for Gmajor - or Eminor come to that.
As it's the Sixth which (partly) decides which type of minor is being used, in its absence we can't know if the Sixth is flattened or not.
Leaving all that on one side:
A common solution to this is to use Open (Guitar = Power chord) chords which omit the Third of the chord - GD not GBbD
Simple rule: If the Third of the Scale is minor then it's in a minor key (A b C: Amin or E f G: Emin or D e F: Dmin) - but first you have to know which key the tune is in - that seems to be a familiar question.
If a note is absent, how do you know if it is supposed to be there. Some would argue that the Gm does not respect the gapped scale as if Bb is never in the melody, it shouldn't be in the accompaniment.
I think that's a bit strong but it's an argument - and then the Gm could be a misprint for Gmajor - or Eminor come to that.
As it's the Sixth which (partly) decides which type of minor is being used, in its absence we can't know if the Sixth is flattened or not.
Leaving all that on one side:
A common solution to this is to use Open (Guitar = Power chord) chords which omit the Third of the chord - GD not GBbD
Simple rule: If the Third of the Scale is minor then it's in a minor key (A b C: Amin or E f G: Emin or D e F: Dmin) - but first you have to know which key the tune is in - that seems to be a familiar question.
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simonking
Guest
This has all gone way overcomplicated and off topic. The piece has one flat in the key signature. By convention, this tells you that it's in either F major or its relative minor key, D minor. In this case it's obvious that the piece is in a minor key from the sound and the fact it ends on a D minor chord also indicates it's in D minor. No key signature would imply C major or A minor, neither of which would agree with what the tune and the chords are saying.
Just an idea, do we perhaps need a "Music Theory" section? Many questions like this are not really accordion specific at all, and would fit better all together in such a catergory.
Just an idea, do we perhaps need a "Music Theory" section? Many questions like this are not really accordion specific at all, and would fit better all together in such a catergory.
donn
Prolific poster
dunlustin said:
It isnt much of an argument until someone would admit to taking it seriously. A melody doesnt have to touch on every note of the scale its built on.
donn
Prolific poster
simonking said:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but I say that this is already overcomplicated! The first statement is enough: the piece has one flat in the key signature. After that, the elucidation of which scale it belongs to, is where the discussion goes down the rat hole. I honestly never know for sure whether the stuff I play is in [one of the] minor scales, or major, and it makes no difference at all to me. If you cant hear the scale, then this avenue of inquiry becomes very important, but I suppose musicians naturally understand the scale theyre playing in, and at any rate knowing its name wont really help. The key signature has one flat.
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Jack Campin
Guest
There is a vast body of folk tunes in gapped scales, and the gaps are used in systematic and often very ingenious ways. It isnt fluke when a tune with a 9-note diatonic range manages never to touch one of those notes in 64 bars. The reason it leaves that note out is because the scale its built on doesnt have it.
I have loads of examples of how gapped scales are used in my modes tutorial.
The single most important reason why you want to know the tonal centre of a tune, and not just its key signature, is if you want to improvise on it (which is what most of the worlds musical traditions do). Tchaikovsky is doing something similar: the tune quoted here is used as the starting point for a complex polythematic form that goes all over the place tonally, and it retains a symbolic function as a folkloric element contrasting with all the sophisticated figuration and counterpoint. He underlines that role by keeping the tune as simple as possible , completely unvaried, while all hell breaks loose around it.
Heres a different evolution of the same tune. A described in the Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marche_Slave
it was originally a Serbian folksong, here given a tamburitza-band accompaniment:
This version seems to have the same underlying tune, but its so buried under Turkish-influenced melodic elaboration its almost inaudible as such:
With that last one, the harmony is almost irrelevant, but you need an absolutely definite idea of where the tonal centre and other melodic reference points are if you dont want to lose control completely.
Searching on YouTube for the Serbian folk originals of the tunes Tchaikovsky used in this piece and following related links gets you VERY quickly into the twilight zone of nationalist nutters in combat fatigues and weird beards waving AK-47s.
donn
Prolific poster
Jack Campin said:
Do you mean to say that applies in the present case, and the Gm chords are bogus? I dont see any Bb, but we havent got to 64 bars yet. Among the several possibilities - the 6th note is Bb; its B; its C# and there is no 7th - only the first seems to make any sense, and its to a scale that would be familiar in recent western classical music.
Its fun to talk about the crazy stuff that happens with scales, and theoretical matters like this. The Sunce Jarko stuff was interesting, Im going to have to listen to the Cicvaric rendition again. I just want to make sure we dont walk away with simple rules that dont really work, like basing the scale rigorously on an inventory of the notes used in the melody, or maybe inflated expectations that a crude major/minor assessment of a tune is going to suffice to improvise on it.
I'd like to have another go at answering the original question.
The flaw in the reasoning is that a Bb in the key signature makes it in F because we need to add
"or its relative minor: Dminor."
That way when you see a key signature that you recognise you ask is this in the (major) key I recognise or its minor?
eg one sharp (F#): Is it in G or (count back 3 semitones) Eminor
Others have suggested ways of working out if its major or minor - not a problem if chords are suggested.
Why is Marche Slave particularly confusing?
Because there are no Bs or Bbs - but the key signature is just that: it tells you the key and therefore something about the chords you choose (or another way, how you harmonise the tune.)
The key tells you how the tune moves around - most simply if it's in D (minor or major) it will (often) end on a D.
Also there are other odd notes - that's why it's called Slave I guess.
For a simple arrangement just start from the standard I IV V chords for the key in question.
Despite the assertions of others, gapped scales do exist and are not uncommon in Folk Music (including the British Isles).
You may choose to ignore that to no great detriment - but it won't make them go away.
For the still confused:
The core of this is very straightforward. (The detail less so but you can do quite well without it.)
If it is not clear then those of us who have tried to explain and failed have simply not been clear enough.
It's the explanation that's a problem- not the question.
The flaw in the reasoning is that a Bb in the key signature makes it in F because we need to add
"or its relative minor: Dminor."
That way when you see a key signature that you recognise you ask is this in the (major) key I recognise or its minor?
eg one sharp (F#): Is it in G or (count back 3 semitones) Eminor
Others have suggested ways of working out if its major or minor - not a problem if chords are suggested.
Why is Marche Slave particularly confusing?
Because there are no Bs or Bbs - but the key signature is just that: it tells you the key and therefore something about the chords you choose (or another way, how you harmonise the tune.)
The key tells you how the tune moves around - most simply if it's in D (minor or major) it will (often) end on a D.
Also there are other odd notes - that's why it's called Slave I guess.
For a simple arrangement just start from the standard I IV V chords for the key in question.
Despite the assertions of others, gapped scales do exist and are not uncommon in Folk Music (including the British Isles).
You may choose to ignore that to no great detriment - but it won't make them go away.
For the still confused:
The core of this is very straightforward. (The detail less so but you can do quite well without it.)
If it is not clear then those of us who have tried to explain and failed have simply not been clear enough.
It's the explanation that's a problem- not the question.
Theo
Member
Jim the box said:
Yes it makes a big difference to the chords you would use to harmonise the piece. If the tune was in C major you would typically use chords of C, F and G. Using those chord in a piece in Dm would sound bad.
But if you are just playing what is written, including chords that have been worked out for you then it doesnt matter.
Flash of understanding:
From Knobby
"Whether it is in D Minor, F Major or C Major it would sound exactly the same"
And you are absolutely right!! Because you have all the information in the sheet music.
So why a key signature?
If you only have the melody (eg fiddle tunes) it's a step towards working out the chords, including major or minor
or
More generally it tells you what to expect which helps with fingering/positions on a neck/guitar shapes etc.
I'd really like to know if the 48 posts have helped anybody at all?
From Knobby
"Whether it is in D Minor, F Major or C Major it would sound exactly the same"
And you are absolutely right!! Because you have all the information in the sheet music.
So why a key signature?
If you only have the melody (eg fiddle tunes) it's a step towards working out the chords, including major or minor
or
More generally it tells you what to expect which helps with fingering/positions on a neck/guitar shapes etc.
I'd really like to know if the 48 posts have helped anybody at all?
Mine would have !
S
smdc66
Guest
dunlustin said:
Yes, especially the last few posts, thanks for the clarification and not giving up trying to explain as I now see the clear flaw in my personal reasoning anyhow:!:
I like the back to basics approach
I dont want to take anything away from the other posters as that was valuable info but for me at my theory level for another day....
:ugeek:
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