Question about learning curve and progress

[Carnivore Caveman]

In a respectful way, I tend to disagree.

You see diligence and practice implies decades of focused practice to attain a high level. While I 100% agree that diligence and practice is the best way to improve, how does one explain the 6 year old that can perform Mozart at professional levels in NY's Carnegie hall? How does it explain a 4 year old girl that can speak in 7 languages? There's been near ZERO time for them to practice and accumulate this info in a normal manner, which would take decades for others to reach.

The definition of genius is exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability... there is no doubt that it exists.

As for the rest... you've caught my attention and I will look in to it!

Dear Jerry, sorry but I disagree, that you disagreed my counter-opinion!
More precisely, I simply do not believe the stories you've linked. There are on the internet millions of stories like those two, but I believe neither of them. My opinion is that all of them only some urbanlegend-like thing.
Of course, I do not deny that there are some young kids who're __seems__ exceptionally talented, because they're able to_do/make/produce(etc) something which is very hard/difficult for the most adults too. This is real, okay.
But I think (deeply believe!) that in those cases/situations the sad reality is one from the following possibilities, or rather (most likely!), something mixture from each of them:
—The fortunate/unfortunate (choose something based on your personal taste...) kid is forced to learn and practice everyday 8 or more hours, he/she has no any "free/off time" therefore no any chance to live a "normal" childhood. And this had been started right off when he/she was born.
—Simply, the kid has Asperger-syndrome. If you do not know what is that, feel free to ask me because I ALSO has that syndrome, so, in short ("nickname") I am an Aspie. And an Aspie, if (s)he has interest towards something, does exactly what I've described in the previous point, just doesn't need any pressure/forcing by parents because (s)he is forced by his/her own "internal main tune" to learn/practice that special field of science or Art. Of course, the progress is far more quick if (s)he has a good teacher, however it is absolutely not impossible to "develop" something "genius" just from his/her own. This actually happened in my life, too: I learned programming just from my own, because I wanted to have my "own" programming language, that is, to create a new programming language, without any "external" help! I never learned programming in any school. Everybody told me, my goal is perfectly impossible, programming languages are developed by serious teams, professors in Universities. Well, I DID! (MADE. Sorry, I do not know did or made is the correct word in English in this context, both are the same in my native tongue...) Now, all scripts in my computer are written in MY OWN programming language, I use it everyday, and works weel perfectly!
So, okay, you may say there are indeed "talent", talent is exist... okay, but only if you label the Asperger-syndrome as "talent", because that syndrome gives the extremely strong resolutenes/determination, therefore the necessary diligence to practice something years-long, without pause, and for that special goal to sacrifice EVERYTHING ELSE in the life!
—The miraculous results/achievements are made not by that allegedly "genius" kid, but mostly by his/her parents. This happened for example by the young Mozart... most of his young "soundtracks" are written by his father, we can say it with serious likelihood.

To the rest: if you have any question about the Carnivore Diet, do not hesitate to ask me! If you think it is too offtopic here, just write me a private message. Don't worry, I am absolutely not angry or anything like that if you not agree my opinion about "genius", "being talented" and so on!

 

[fjsys]

And how many is necessary to play the "Second Waltz" ? (I think it is a bit easier, although when I suppose this it is not excluded that I am wrong).

Well if this is truly about "Waltz No. 2" by Shostakovich I can give you some insight on what it took me.
Some background: I am an intermediate/advanced 45 year old player who has been having lessons for 12ish years now. I can comfortably play out of the PH 7 and have made it through book 9 before. (there isn't anything good in book 10 in my opinion, so I stopped)

I was given an intermediate arrangement (Transcription) of Waltz No. 2 by my teacher (it was his transcription, and needed some help along the way) After about 3 months of daily practice (not the only thing I was working on, so about 10-15 min per day on it) I was able to play it well enough. Most of it is fairly easy, but there are some tricky transitions between as Jeff calls them "three different waltzes" and the second voices and harmony notes that my teacher added.

However this leads to the other issue that I have. At 45 I cannot memorize songs (trust me I have tried and it isn't worth the work in my opinion) and as I haven't played it in about a month when I sat down to play it before responding to this I have found that I have lost a good portion of it.
So the question of how long it takes depends, but I would say that as you get older it takes longer and that is OK. We are not looking to be virtuosos when getting a late start at this, just having some fun along the way. The more concerning thing to me is the loss from not playing something for even a month that happens at my age...

HTH
Ben

 

[Carnivore Caveman]

Well if this is truly about "Waltz No. 2" by Shostakovich I can give you some insight on what it took me.
Some background: I am an intermediate/advanced 45 year old player who has been having lessons for 12ish years now. I can comfortably play out of the PH 7 and have made it through book 9 before. (there isn't anything good in book 10 in my opinion, so I stopped)

I was given an intermediate arrangement (Transcription) of Waltz No. 2 by my teacher (it was his transcription, and needed some help along the way) After about 3 months of daily practice (not the only thing I was working on, so about 10-15 min per day on it) I was able to play it well enough. Most of it is fairly easy, but there are some tricky transitions between as Jeff calls them "three different waltzes" and the second voices and harmony notes that my teacher added.

However this leads to the other issue that I have. At 45 I cannot memorize songs (trust me I have tried and it isn't worth the work in my opinion) and as I haven't played it in about a month when I sat down to play it before responding to this I have found that I have lost a good portion of it.
So the question of how long it takes depends, but I would say that as you get older it takes longer and that is OK. We are not looking to be virtuosos when getting a late start at this, just having some fun along the way. The more concerning thing to me is the loss from not playing something for even a month that happens at my age...

HTH
Ben

Thanks for your reply dear Ben!
I can suggest you too, to switch to the Carnivore Diet... or at least to a "strict ketogenic diet"! (although, these both are almost the same...). Surely, your memory will get serious improvement!
As far as my goal are concerned: of course, I do not imagine that I become virtuoso, ever! Yes, I am too old that. But I believe I can achieve the level "good entertrainer". Something like those ones on the street, and play good music, with tons of improvisations...
So, when I mentioned for example the "Second Waltz" (yes, I meant by Shostakovich) then I have no any intention to play it absolutely precisely, each note of that, and so on... I want to play it just for my own happiness, or maybe, for a small group of others who will enjoy it... And this is my goal with every other pieces too. I do not want to play with anybody else together, in an ensemble or like that. So I do not even dream about a "professional level". But I deeply believe I can get the "good entertrainer" level.

 

[Dingo40]

CC,
Thanks for sharing some of your personal story:
Well done!??
Personally, I have had quite a bit to do with people with Asperger Syndrome, both through my work ( now retired) as well as with various members of my extended family.
It is good you have shared your story as it helps to spread the understanding and informs the public of the variety that exists in humanity.
All good !??

 

[Carnivore Caveman]

CC,
Thanks for sharing some of your personal story:
Well done!??
Personally, I have had quite a bit to do with people with Asperger Syndrome, both through my work ( now retired) as well as with various members of my extended family.
It is good you have shared your story as it helps to spread the understanding and informs the public of the variety that exists in humanity.
All good !??

Are you psychologist or psychiatrist?
Dear Dingo40,
the situation is that in the first months of this year I've finished my newest book (since I am author/novelist, too) which is actually my reminiscences... So, my "autobiography", but especially from the aspect of an Aspie... I write sci-fi in general, but this book is a "true story".
Of course, it is written in Hungarian (my native tongue) but just now is under translation to English...
Here is some of its first sentences:

A book about the minority of human beings who are still cruelly oppressed in every country on Earth: those with Asperger Syndrome.​

This is a book about those people—in a broader sense—who "suffer" from what is called Asperger Syndrome.
The word "suffer" is deliberately in quotation marks in the above sentence, and I shall explain why later.
Those with Asperger Syndrome are a subset of the target audience of this book, however I did not write it primarily for them but for those who, in sharp contrast with this previous group, do NOT have Asperger Syndrome, the so-called "normal" people.
For the remainder of the book, however, I will not use the word "normal" when I mention them, but the term: neurotypical.
....
I have mentioned above that for my Aspie readers, the primary goal of this book is to increase their self-confidence. But aside from this it also includes an abundance of "stories" from my own life, personal experiences and adventures—both cheerful and sad. And I believe that upon reading these stories, these situations will be very familiar to Aspies, and they will realize that they are not alone as they once thought, as they have many comrades in their misfortune!
And for my neurotypical readers, the aim of this book is to introduce them to "our world".
The World of Aspies... a world that is definitely NOT ours, because the neurotypical majority has arranged it to be torture for us.
Although this should not inevitably be the case.
In fact, it is extremely disadvantageous even to the neurotypical majority that the World is such an unsuitable place for us Aspies.
Because we possess a wealth of incredible and astonishing talents, and consequently if a smart businessperson were to pay some attention to our special requirements, they could profit from us to a staggering degree—I would not be exaggerating to say even billions of dollars!
And meanwhile us Aspies would be having a whale of a time!
I will address in a later chapter of the book what I believe the best method for doing this is.
The point now is only to present to You, my Neurotypical Readers, how an Aspie generally sees the World, human society and the neurotypical people living in it.

So, English translation of this book is in progress!
In case you like to read sci-fi, then behold: here is my (English) webpage with some free downloadable English works of me(don't worry, it is in GOOD English because I have native English Publisher's Reader... Who lives in Australia... ):
My English webpage
(Yes, "Harold King" is my English pen-name).

 

[Dingo40]

CC, or Harold,
All very good: stick at it!?
To answer your question: for the last 41 years of my working career, I was a psychologist with the state department of education.?

 

[Pipemajor]

I land somewhere in the middle. Yes, there are people who "get" things faster/quicker than others. Certain people have a knack for certain things.

But, to quote the title of a book by Geoff Colvin, "Talent is Overrated". That is, it exists, but it's not really the main thing behind excellent performance. Most (not all, but most) of what we look at and call "talent" really is the end result of a lot of work. And the majority of people we consider to be talented aren't really any more exceptional than anyone else, apart from the passion they have for their craft and the deliberate work, over a long period of time, that passion inspired.

Even child prodigies, despite their obvious gifts, did some work to get to where they are. They were all born equally as dumb as any of us were. That piano kid starting poking around on the piano at two, apparently, then took formal lessons at 4 1/2, and practices some three hours a day. Granted, I don't think I'd be where he was even if I followed that same curriculum. Just pointing out that even he had to punch the practice clock (as did his idol Mozart too, by the way).

This is one of my pet soapboxes (is that thing?), because I feel like a lot of people give up on their own creative pursuits--or never even start them--because they've bought into this idea that they don't have "talent". Everywhere they look they see amazing performances, but seldom see the long process that resulted in the ability to create that performance. So it gives the illusion that so-and-so is "just good at" whatever--that they're "gifted". It follows then that if it doesn't come easy for you, well there's something wrong with you and you should just throw in the towel! Why bother if you don't have the "gift"?

(And don't get me started on the whole "if you can't be amazingly great at something, why bother?" idea, which so often goes hand-in-hand with the "talent required" myth. Grrrr...)

There is also "natural ability" which must be taken into consideration, which explains why some Olympic atheletes get gold medals and others, who I'm sure must train just as hard do not.
Usain Bolt may be the fastest sprinter but if he were to enter the marathon would he come first?
Also the desire to play pays a big part. My wife (she doesn't follow this forum so I'm safe!!) won't put any effort into learning. She wanted to play the accordion so I got her a small suitable one which lasted about 2 weeks before it was consigned to the wardrobe and eventually given away. She then said she had always wanted to play the violin. I got her one and she went for lessons for about a month until, one day, I picked it up and messed about with it for 10 minutes finding out how the strings were pitched, and after another few minutes , managed to scrape out a recogniseable tune. She heard me and angrily announced that there was no point in her continuing and the fiddle was consigned to the wardrobe where it remains to this day.
On the other hand a chap came to the pipe band I was running saying he had wanted to play the pipes all his life, but had never found anywhere to learn. For the next 6 years he practiced religiously every day, going out into a field so no one would hear him.
His goal was to be able to play "Auld Lang Syne" at midnight one New Years Eve for his neighbours without stopping or making mistakes.
He never made it. He could play the tunes on a practice chanter providing he had the music in front of him, but, without the music, he could only play a couple of bars, then had to stop to think what came next.
The obvious thing would be to gently tell him that he wasn't cut out to play the pipes, but his dedication was such that we didn't have the heart to tell him.
Another peculiarity was that, although he had been a paratrooper in the army, he couldn't play and march at the same time. He could do one or the other, but not together. Sadly he died before his wish was fulfilled.
A rambling story, but it shows that you need dedication, practice, and a modicum of natural ability to tackle most things in life.

 

[Tom]

I believe in varying ability to learn accordion. My advice to you, CC:

1. A competent teacher will help.
2. Start simple. Learn easy tunes and perfect them.
3. Listen and watch a lot of accordion music. Figure out what you really like.
4. Understand the difference between practicing (learning) and playing.
5. Read about effective practicing and understand that 20 minutes of effective practice beats 4 hours of ineffective practice every day of the week.
6. Shoot for one tune a week. If the tunes are too hard, pick easier tunes. Combine this with effective practice of 1 or 2 tunes you "really want to learn" that will require more than a week.
7. Play for people.
8. Record and listen to yourself.
9. Learn to sing.
10. Learn to read at playing speed.
11. Play songs you love every day, at least 10 minutes.

 

[JeffJetton]

I believe in varying ability to learn accordion. My advice to you, CC:

1. A competent teacher will help.
2. Start simple. Learn easy tunes and perfect them.
3. Listen and watch a lot of accordion music. Figure out what you really like.
4. Understand the difference between practicing (learning) and playing.
5. Read about effective practicing and understand that 20 minutes of effective practice beats 4 hours of ineffective practice every day of the week.
6. Shoot for one tune a week. If the tunes are too hard, pick easier tunes. Combine this with effective practice of 1 or 2 tunes you "really want to learn" that will require more than a week.
7. Play for people.
8. Record and listen to yourself.
9. Learn to sing.
10. Learn to read at playing speed.
11. Play songs you love every day, at least 10 minutes.

This is a very good list, Tom!

 

[Valski]

I believe in varying ability to learn accordion. My advice to you, CC:

1. A competent teacher will help.
2. Start simple. Learn easy tunes and perfect them.
3. Listen and watch a lot of accordion music. Figure out what you really like.
4. Understand the difference between practicing (learning) and playing.
5. Read about effective practicing and understand that 20 minutes of effective practice beats 4 hours of ineffective practice every day of the week.
6. Shoot for one tune a week. If the tunes are too hard, pick easier tunes. Combine this with effective practice of 1 or 2 tunes you "really want to learn" that will require more than a week.
7. Play for people.
8. Record and listen to yourself.
9. Learn to sing.
10. Learn to read at playing speed.
11. Play songs you love every day, at least 10 minutes.

Great list!

I would also add, challenge yourself from time to time by learning a different style. If you always play a certain style change it up by learning a different kind of song but don't make it too difficult. You want to have fun but if you only play one type of music your audience will not enjoy your repertoire.

Learn the old favorites and make your performance a great success. ?

 

[Carnivore Caveman]

Great list!

I would also add, challenge yourself from time to time by learning a different style. If you always play a certain style change it up by learning a different kind of song but don't make it too difficult. You want to have fun but if you only play one type of music your audience will not enjoy your repertoire.

Learn the old favorites and make your performance a great success. ?

My first goal to play those Hungarian folk songs on accordion which I can whistle with my mouth. Then, to play certain waltzes...
Anything else comes just after these twos...

 

[Bobo]

That piece sounds pretty simple. I literally just 10 minutes ago received a book that I ordered. "The Mighty Accordion" by David DiGiuseppe.
It's dedicated to the left hand only. Starts very simple and doesn't look like it ramps up too terribly.

There's a Palmer-Hughes book called "Adventures in Bassland." It has you playing full songs, melody and accompaniment, all with the left hand.

When I played piano accordion I never got to the point where I could make big confident jumps across the bass keys. I'm hoping to woodshed with this book. That is, after I get new batteries for my accordion.

 

[Carnivore Caveman]

That piece sounds pretty simple. I literally just 10 minutes ago received a book that I ordered. "The Mighty Accordion" by David DiGiuseppe.
It's dedicated to the left hand only. Starts very simple and doesn't look like it ramps up too terribly.

There's a Palmer-Hughes book called "Adventures in Bassland." It has you playing full songs, melody and accompaniment, all with the left hand.

When I played piano accordion I never got to the point where I could make big confident jumps across the bass keys. I'm hoping to woodshed with this book. That is, after I get new batteries for my accordion.

Hi friend, BIG THANKS for the idea: I ordered the abovementioned two books immediately, it was a no-brainer decision!

 

[Bobo]

 

[Tom]

So, CC, it's been a couple of months, how's it going? I hope you've been able to make some progress on the waltzes.

 

[OuijaBoard]

There's no need to descend into a debate about how far people starting well into adulthood can get when taking up accordion, because this piece is quite elementary, and few people yearning to play accordion, and this tune specifically, would be too far along in life to be able to get it.

This is probably around "Book Three" level in the venerable ten-book Palmer-Hughes accordion tutor series. Maybe even "Book Two" level.
And stuff like this sounds fab on the accordion regardless of its simplicity. I don't mean this dismissively, to me the minor-key Eastern European folk waltzes, horas, etc., are some of the best accordion music. This also goes for the Hungarian folk waltzes the OP mentions--some of my favorite accordion music.

If starting from scratch, one does need to get working learning the basics of notes and rhythm, and the principle of practicing hands-separately before hands-together, etc. Lessons are highly advisable, though the good news is these days you can get them by Zoom, online, etc.

For a beginner, one does want a simplified accordion arrangement of this tune set into an "easy" or "white piano key" key. This tune would sound wonderful in A-minor, d-minor, e-minor. It's a very simple, elementary melody arrangeable for a hauntingly lovely accordion version with basic rhythmic basses, and someone starting literally from zero should be able to play it in a couple of years at most. If one has any music background, that could be significantly less.

 

[Carnivore Caveman]

So, CC, it's been a couple of months, how's it going? I hope you've been able to make some progress on the waltzes.

Oh, it is not the time to play waltz me yet... In these days I practice my favorite (mostly but not exclusively) Hungarian folk music.
The bass side is still extremely hard. Almost no progress... But yesterday I ordered 2 books about this important topic, when I'll get them I hope I can achieve something result on that side too.
But no problem, anyway, since this is just an amusement me. There are no intention of me to become a famous accordionist... The main thing is that I feel good when I have some time to play on it.

 

[Tom]

Oh, it is not the time to play waltz me yet... In these days I practice my favorite (mostly but not exclusively) Hungarian folk music.
The bass side is still extremely hard. Almost no progress... But yesterday I ordered 2 books about this important topic, when I'll get them I hope I can achieve something result on that side too.
But no problem, anyway, since this is just an amusement me. There are no intention of me to become a famous accordionist... The main thing is that I feel good when I have some time to play on it.

Glad to hear you are enjoying it! One thing that might help you is to keep your basses very simple to begin with. It's not necessary, for example to play alternating basses from the start. You can also simplify by playing only one or two chords per measure, even without the bass notes. As you gain more familiarity, you can work on playing the basses as written. Good luck!

 

[Bobo]

"The Mighty Accordion" book has you jumping from F to A by about page 30. But it doesn't actually get started with playing until page 19. So it's moving along.

When I watch really accomplished players on YouTube they don't feel their way around the bass buttons. Their fingers hover in the air and they just hit them. Blows my mind.

 

[Dingo40]

"When I watch really accomplished players on YouTube they don't feel their way around the bass buttons. Their fingers hover in the air and they just hit them. Blows my mind."
Practice makes perfect!??