Piano or cromatic accordion?

[losthobos]

I've been in amusement most of the morning considering conatations of Acker Bilk....and how long before it starts to fit in musicians rhyming slang.....i never really liked that New Orleans/dixie sound...doesn't swing enough for me

However i may now be able to whisper..."i'm quite partial to a touch of Acker Bilk on a sunday morning' ....or even shout 'Avoid him...He's a right proper Acker Bilk!!!'

As to the chordal thing i like the big bands and Harry Hussey explained to me the concept of imitating the horn sections on the right hand trying to lay them under the melodies....and as you say it's just a question of trial and error for the ears...though some patterns tend to recur nothing can be really relied upon....and it was the difference between these horn arrangements that stood the big bands way back apart from each other....my favorite for sound was Claude Thornhills Orchestra especially if he was using Gil Evans arrangements
Though id heard it said that Claude Thornhill could be a right proper Acker Bilk if his band had played sloppily the night before and would punish them by making them practice a Gil Evans arrangement....

 

[maugein96]

Terry,

His music was a bit on the slow side of laid back, but I was always looking for something a bit different, and that album seemed to fill a gap. Suffice to say I don't currently own any of his recordings.

I was into Johnny Meijer's music for a while and just about wore the buttons off the box I had at the time before I realised he played B system, like just about every one of my favourite players. He was just as well known for playing "amsterdamse schmalz", which is also a definite niche interest. Loads of big chords on even bigger boxes, all musette tuned to a pitch that keeps those windmills turning at speed. Another rough and ready style definitely out of favour with some, but I would challenge anybody to play those tunes the way Johnny did (when he was sober).

John Leslie's shop in London was about the only place on these rainswept islands we call the UK where you had any chance of getting a B system. He used to teach both B and C systems and I spoke to him on the phone a few times when I was considering a switch. The only boxes he had in stock at that time were either beginners instruments or top of the range ones that were more expensive than some top of the range cars. I think he taught B system from his own notes and couldn't recommend a book, so I gave it a miss. I therefore had to work on the elastic fingers you need for C system, using whatever method books I could get hold of.

The third and fourth of my developing elastic fingers literally twanged in 1997 in a car accident. The bonnet of the car came through the windscreen and my brain reckoned (stupidly) that my head was more precious than my right hand. I instinctively raised my right hand to deflect the metal bonnet, which embedded itself into the back of my hand and tore the tendons to my ring finger and pinky. I had multiple injuries and nearly never made it, but the surgeon decided to repair the hand just in case I recovered, and I'm glad he did. The driver was worse than me, but he survived as well.

It took me about two years of daily exercises to get those fingers moving again, and to this day I cannot really make a proper fist. However, I was determined that all the time and money I had invested was not going to be for nothing, so I kept at it. As time passed I realised that I wouldn't be able to get back to playing as well as I could, and that's the main reason why I often just pack the boxes away for months at a time. I was never going to earn a lot of money playing, but I wasn't too bad a player. I've never had much musical knowledge, but I do have a degree of natural ability that carries me through. I don't have any handicap with the guitar, as I only play plectrum style. If I had been a fingerstyle player it would have been the end of guitar playing altogether.

I got a compensation pay out for the accident and bought a second accordion with part of the money, just so that I wouldn't give up altogether. I made my mind up to stop playing a few months ago, as I was getting stale, but still take the boxes out of their cases occasionally, just to check they are still working!

 

[donn]

Ive been in amusement most of the morning considering conatations of Acker Bilk....and how long before it starts to fit in musicians rhyming slang.....i never really liked that New Orleans/dixie sound...doesnt swing enough for me

Ah ... just a minute, there. Listening to Acker Bilk is not how I would recommend we decide how we feel about New Orleans/Dixieland, or even New Orleans/Dixieland clarinet.

Rather than run through the obvious list, let me mention a young product of English soil who you might find in London, or occasionally New Orleans, Ewan Bleach. Ive seen him on youtube recordings of his group Man Overboard Quintet, and sitting in with the New Orleans street band Tuba Skinny.

 

[losthobos]

No offence intended....was merely playing on words with a joke from maugein earlier....
However I'm still not really a fan of Dixie/new Orleans though I often go to a trad jazz club Sunday evenings to dance....it'll do but still not really my bag....to many marches and straighter rhythms....
Now put a soprano clarinet in Sidney Bechets hands and we're really swinging....

 

[donn]

Now put a soprano clarinet in Sidney Bechets hands and were really swinging....

See, thats what Im talking about. Bechet was the real New Orleans original.

The music has gotten into kind of an awkward place. Likely there are parallels with musette and whatnot. Ideally, its a sort of high level popular music - lots of room for virtuosity and creativity. But jazz musicians looking for any kind of prestige have to follow some evolutionary path, so the cream of the crop go elsewhere. They arent going to try their hand at the old stuff and see if they can do it better than Louis Armstrong. The relatively dull musicians, meanwhile, arent going to excel at the old stuff, because its too improvisatory, thinly arranged - theyd be better off with larger swing bands - but the audiences dont seem to care a lot, so you get a lot of dull Dixieland. Though as I mentioned, there are some really good young players.

 

[maugein96]

Hi Donn,

Unfortunately I sort of created this "confusion" with an off topic joke.

Your mention of musette triggered off a (tiny) cell in my brain. In these days of worldwide media where we can all listen to each others music styles, a few years ago I discovered that French musette had become popular in Japan. They play French made accordions, the lot, and most of them are excellent musicians. At first my jaw sort of dropped when I heard some of these musette bands in action. However, inevitably they tend to copy what they have heard, as a sort of facsimile of the original tune, as played by the original artiste. Now, when you have listened intently to your own preferred genre(s) for many years, you start to pick up on things that most other people wouldn't notice, and as much as I like what those guys are trying to do, I would only listen to them for the novelty of it, as they are just short of the real deal (i.e. I'd rather listen to an album made by Jo Privat, than somebody trying to copy his every move).

In the accordion world, French musette is often "butchered" when it is incorporated into the repertoires of some musicians in other countries. In the days when I could play reasonably well I probably sounded French, but the chances are that a French accordionist would immediately identify me as a foreigner. Something would either be missing, or alternatively something was there that shouldn't be. In other words listening to those Japanese guys eventually made me realise that I was doing precisely as they were. Almost everything I do has been copied from players I've heard. Had I progressed up a few levels I may well have developed my own style, but that "Frenchness" would still be lacking to some degree.

I've heard some excellent pro players tell their audience, "Now I'll play a medley of French waltzes", and at that point I want to run away and hide. The audience will sit there awestruck whilst "fantastic" renditions of "well known" musette tunes are "neutered" by the player's interpretations of them. I consider that their appreciation is for the player, not the music. On occasion they'll hit their audience with their own musette compositions, which to my ears will sound about as French as Greek does.

I seem to be part of a growing? minority who are obsessed with learning musical styles and instruments alien to their own shores. Very very few such players have ever been able to totally encapsulate the "foreign" music of their choice, unless they go to the country concerned and integrate with native musicians who can show them the ropes.

In the accordion world I have seen a Dutch guy brave enough to perform Mexican music styles to a Mexican audience. The stares of the audiences involved were often extremely hostile, as though he had no right to play their music, but nobody killed him so he went back several times, and I now believe he either lives there, or at least returns there regularly.

Had I been able I may well have decided to take "time-out" in France so that I could work on my accordion "accent", which I believe is precisely what the young English guy you mention is all about?

If that young man has been accepted over your side as being a worthy exponent of what is a very established US style, with a host of knowledgeable critics, then he's done exceptionally well. There must be a (printable) word for those of us who turn our backs on our "native" music, but I've never yet found out what it is.

I've always loved to travel (around Europe) and learn about the cultures and music of other countries, probably because I was unhappy with the surroundings where I grew up in the dank industrial area of North Lanarkshire in Scotland, where the only claim we had to "mountains" were those created by the immense slag heaps and shale "bings" which were by-products of the now defunct mining industry. However, in some parts of France their coal and shale deposits make bigger mountains than ours, so I cannot quite work out my own logic of choosing French musette? I've never made much inroads with the language and the last time I visited France was in 1995, so I'm not one of those Brits who take the whole culture on board and pretend to be French. I just love the music, pure and simple.

As usual it has taken me a million words to make a short statement. Maybe some other members have gone through a similar phase, which in my case has lasted over 60 years, since I first remember hearing French accordion music on radio here in the UK.

 

[losthobos]

Fair point Donn....there is a large picture of Sidney Bechet in the club I go to...the only musician picture too
Sadly I've yet to see a band there make the decent leap from funeral marches and when the saints to some real hot swing.....apparently its the oldest trad jazz club in the UK too...
On another note....who am I too judge...if people come see the hot clubs I've played for I'm sure they walk away saying we ain't quite Grappeli or Rheinhart either....<EMOJI seq="1f609">?</EMOJI>

 

[Geronimo]

Your mention of musette triggered off a (tiny) cell in my brain. In these days of worldwide media where we can all listen to each others music styles, a few years ago I discovered that French musette had become popular in Japan. They play French made accordions, the lot, and most of them are excellent musicians. At first my jaw sort of dropped when I heard some of these musette bands in action. However, inevitably they tend to copy what they have heard, as a sort of facsimile of the original tune, as played by the original artiste. Now, when you have listened intently to your own preferred genre(s) for many years, you start to pick up on things that most other people wouldnt notice, and as much as I like what those guys are trying to do, I would only listen to them for the novelty of it, as they are just short of the real deal (i.e. Id rather listen to an album made by Jo Privat, than somebody trying to copy his every move).

I think the reigning yodeling champion last time I looked was Japanese. As sort of revenge, the reigning Sumo wrestling champion was from the U.S.

Things are somewhat different with Square and Line Dance traditions originating in Ireland and Scotland (and probably some neighboring regions) but having seen much of their maintenance in the U.S. They are not as much copies of the original rather than separately evolved forks, taking roots in the same traditions but having developed an identity as well as identity-reaffirming purpose of their own.

Part of what is making evolving styles genuine rather than copied or ossified is the lack of the musicians worrying about being genuine. In France, youd be busy trying to think up new elements to bring onto the table of musette in order to keep the audience entertained. In Scotland, youd be more focused trying to copy established elements in an authentic manner. And in some ex-French settlements, people would likely be obsessing about the traditional manner of doing things.

Ive heard some excellent pro players tell their audience, Now Ill play a medley of French waltzes, and at that point I want to run away and hide.

Usually one can start running right after the word medley, no matter of what comes next.

A favorite of mine are also 20 classic songs you must have heard, romantic edition, which to a large degree are neither songs nor music from the classic period, nor romantic and more often than not are single movements ripped out of larger pieces and cobbled together without rhyme or reason.

 

[maugein96]

Hi Geronimo,

Yes, I think you have the concept worked out. Natural players of any genre will simply play in the style they are used to without having to worry about whether they sound genuine.

Also, where established "colonies" of musicians exist outside of their home territory, the music gradually shifts away from the original without any apparent conscious effort by the players. Probable cause is exposure to other more local styles.

With some reluctance I'm going to talk about Scottish accordion music, and hope my tin hat still fits me! The music tends to be centred around "traditional" dances, and the musicians have (or had) little scope for much experimentation, as audiences expect all renditions to be the musical equivalent of "word perfect", even where no dancing is taking place. At least that's the way it once was, and I do believe that a very few younger players these days have dared to abandon the very strong Scottish musette tuning, and also improvise (gulp!), as they have been doing in Ireland for some time now. Maybe an example of "exposure to other styles", which are not really local, but close enough to have an impact.

I don't have enough knowledge of Scottish or Irish music to make any definitive statement on either, but things seem to be changing. Perhaps modern amplification is working towards obviating the necessity for loud sounding accordions, but again I'm not sure. Whilst the dance music in Scotland has been around for a very long time, I wonder what people's reactions were when the new upstart "foreign" accordion was introduced as a major component, and whether the dancing style had to be altered to accommodate the accordion intruder.

Suffice to say that I am probably one of the majority of the general Scottish populace who do not particularly care for the music at all, but one of a very small minority of Scottish accordion enthusiasts who has failed to embrace it. In the days before TV it was certainly more popular as a form of local "self-entertainment", but an accordion is still a major investment to pursue a minority music genre, a situation that is not confined to Scotland.

As an example of "identity re-affirming" that you mention, there are a lot of people of Scottish ancestry in Canada, and a former work colleague of mine toured Canada as part of a Scottish Pipe Band. Everywhere they went "Scottish" Canadians would shower them with praise and wax eloquently about their Scottish ancestors. As a tribute to the band, a leading dignitary in one of the towns where they played called to his townspeople to sing a tune he referred to by the title "Shouldaulda". The band members looked at each other in puzzlement, until they heard the people singing "Should auld acquaintance be forgot....." The tune is known in English speaking countries worldwide as "Auld Lang Syne", or "Zyne" if you are from England or North America.

Now, I was born less than 40 miles way from the famed Scottish poet, Robert Burns, the guy who wrote the lyrics to that song in the old Scottish dialect known as Lallans. The first two words still form part of everyday speech in my home area, but to us "syne" or more commonly "sine", means to "rinse out". So my literal translation of Auld Lang Syne is "Old long rinse out", or "Wash-out" . Even allowing for dialectal differences and the modern trend towards use of standard English, that title causes problems even in the very area where it was written. Those who profess to know the real meaning of the title say it is a drinking song to celebrate old bygone days, but I think Burns must have been drinking more than singing when he wrote it down! If people living on his doorstep have trouble, that leaves the Canadians with absolutely no chance of comprehending its meaning.

They say music is an international language and I used to believe that. Maybe that's why I prefer instrumental stuff.

 

[donn]

Had I been able I may well have decided to take time-out in France so that I could work on my accordion accent, which I believe is precisely what the young English guy you mention is all about?

If that young man has been accepted over your side as being a worthy exponent of what is a very established US style, with a host of knowledgeable critics, then hes done exceptionally well.

I dont know him, but I do know a local who went south to sit in the very same seat, i.e. clarinet in that band. Im sure part of the attraction is that kind of musical growth, but not in a particularly calculating way. When you start to feel like you could play with that crowd, eventually you will scrape up plane fare and go and play with them. I suppose for most us its rewarding to play with good players, so its just a natural process of concentration, once you have a central hot spot where it could happen. Thats also New York for jazz, but a very different scene there. Anyway, the Englishman, Ewan Bleach, I would say is just one of many very decent players - who also has an engaging performance personality and the apparent ability to make things happen, so hes probably better off at home in London leading a band, than sitting in someone elses band in New Orleans.

Anyway, those of us who take an interest in this type of music cant really afford to be snobbish about national origin. Traditional jazz goes back to a day when it wasnt traditional, of course, it was a new and exciting musical form - invented and performed mostly by black men, and thats one thing you dont see much of, in traditional jazz today.

 

[Geronimo]

Anyway, those of us who take an interest in this type of music cant really afford to be snobbish about national origin. Traditional jazz goes back to a day when it wasnt traditional, of course, it was a new and exciting musical form - invented and performed mostly by black men, and thats one thing you dont see much of, in traditional jazz today.

In the early days of Cool Jazz, Dave Bruberg actually routinely cancelled several concerts when it became clear that the hosts were trying to make sure that the audience did not see too much of Eugene Wright, the black bassist being part of the Brubeck quartet (otherwise a bunch of white guys with thick rimmed glasses looking like physicist caricatures) for about a decade. Either by asking for having a different bassist altogether or by wanting to place him off camera or similar.

I like this no-nonsense kind of not accommodating what doesnt make sense but of course its hard to have much of an idea about what it meant at that time judging from this time and place and filtered information available to go by.

 

[maugein96]

Anyway, those of us who take an interest in this type of music cant really afford to be snobbish about national origin. Traditional jazz goes back to a day when it wasnt traditional, of course, it was a new and exciting musical form - invented and performed mostly by black men, and thats one thing you dont see much of, in traditional jazz today.

I completely agree Donn, and what youve said has got me thinking.

Jazz, in all its variations, is nowadays a worldwide phenomenon involving players of many different nationalities, whereas French musette is essentially a folk type genre which has crept into the repertoires of some accordionists worlwide, by virtue of its association with the accordion.

The Parisian chanson style attracted various US composers, like Gershwin, and two of the most famous numbers were composed by non-French nationals. Georges Ulmer was a Danish national who composed Pigalle, and sang it in his Danish accent, or at least the accent came through. Domino was composed by Louis Ferrari, an Italian, who was also one of the very few PA players who made it into musette. Compared to jazz the chanson era was brief, but it did have international popularity for a while.

After a rethink I should probably be grateful that some people play still play the French musette style at all, and just accept the fact that everybody is entitled to have a go in whatever manner they think is appropriate, consistent with their own playing style and audience.

I would certainly never know whether a jazz player had made a decent job of a number, because I woudnt know what I was looking for, and I would just appreciate the efforts of the player, even if it was not his/her usual offering.

Im putting my hands up to being a French musette snob, and considering my lack of proficiency on the instrument, I should maybe take the blinkers off when players of other genres decide to have a go, as they will probably and ultimately make a better job of it than I could. After all, unless Im at a live venue, there are two buttons on most media players that can cure any disapproval I may incur. The people who invented mute and off buttons are high on my list of heroes. If they were invented by the same person, do you know what that God is called?

 

[donn]

I like this no-nonsense kind of not accommodating what doesnt make sense but of course its hard to have much of an idea about what it meant at that time judging from this time and place and filtered information available to go by.

There was some of that all along, I know Benny Goodman had integrated bands in the 30s. But thats rather the opposite of what I was talking about. Charlie Christian, Lionel Hampton etc. were taking their spots at the top there. The whiteness of the traditional jazz world is more a case of black players not interested in pulling up a chair at the bottom. Or maybe its a revival from a time that doesnt seem very romantic to them. Whatever ... anyway, we white guys arent really in a good position laugh at a Swede or whatever, or complain about cultural appropriation.

 

[Morne]

I find it sort of funny to see how much of a CBA zealot Ive become. Im almost personally offended when seeing someone from France or Russia play piano accordion: they have no excuse for doing so. Of course that may just be the usual zealot deal at work here: if your own example does not cut it, preach to others.

My perception is the other way round: I find that CBA makes inroads into countries traditionally just playing PA, possibly because of the Internets ability to spread grassroots propaganda, giving zealots such as myself more visibility than they might get elsewhere. At the same time, I do see more piano accordions than I expect in those countries known to be button accordion country.

For some reason, in Russia women appear to be seen more often playing piano accordion than men. Is it due to the uncompromising weight of the Russian bayan?

A bit late to the discussion, but I have a hypothesis for the situation in Russia.

At the high end concert level I would agree that weight might be a big contributing factor, since those bayans are heavy. However, at the other end of the spectrum I dont think its a big factor. From what Ive seen, a typical 2 voice, 55 note bayan is around 8kg. Im not sure whether thats considered heavy or not and what youd get from a similar, or lower weight PA. I believe there is a huge amount of those 2 voice bayans floating around, so I also dont think the price of a PA vs a bayan would sway one to the former.

My hypothesis is that it has to do with the sound. In Russia, when you get your hands on a CBA it is extremely likely that youll get a bayan with the typical dry sound. If you want a French/Italian/German tremolo, youre more likely to find that sound in a PA. Even when a bayan has some tremolo, its still not near whats common across Europe. As far as the availability of non-Russian instruments in Russia, I have a feeling that there are more older PAs with tremolo than older CBAs with tremolo. If that is not the case, then maybe its just that the CBA has a certain stigma due to the typical bayan sound, and so the wetter PA is considered more interesting. So if your interest is in that sound, perhaps the path of least resistance there is to go with a PA?

Of course, this all looking from the outside in, so I might be way off.

 

[donn]

Could be something more obvious, too - if there's a cohort that picks up the accordion at a somewhat later point, after learning one or more other instruments, then there's a good chance that many of them will have prior experience with the piano keyboard.

Anyway, for me it's a good sign for the accordion world. If people are picking up PA in button country - and vice versa - that tells me players are making their own choices and ending up on accordion, not just a the usual kids saddled with an accordion on the unlikely chance that a few of them might go on to play it as adults.

 

[maugein96]

Here in Europe the situation tends to be that players are more parochial in their choice of instrument, and I would reckon that the vast majority of them seldom stray from the styles of music that are popular in their own countries, and sometimes even regions of those countries. There are exceptions, but in my experience that is the case.

There is a host of national and regional European styles which often hamper a player's ability to diversify, as it may take them years to become proficient in their "local" genre before they can contemplate another.

What I have noticed on the forum is that members from outside of Europe are often more eclectic in their choice of playing material, and unless they are playing Cajun or some distinct regional music their repertoire is likely to be pretty varied in content.

I don't think CBA will ever overtake PA in popularity in the English speaking world, as if you ask anybody to draw an accordion in those countries it will inevitably be a PA. Only accordion owners and players would know that CBAs existed at all, and in all likelihood if the average person was to be shown a CBA the word "accordion" may not necessarily be how they would describe it.

Even in most of Italy, arguably the cradle of the accordion, "bottoni" accordions are a bit of a rarity. Only place I know of where they sort of hold their own with PA is Emilia Romagna in the north.

 

[andrewjohnsson40]

Personally, I think PA is a better choice. The reason: it has piano keys so playing melodies on the PA will help with playing melodies on the piano.

There are very few people renowned for playing both organ and piano well in spite of both of them having piano keys for both hands. And a PA has piano keys only on the right hand.

Can you name a few people renowned to be good on both piano and piano accordion?

Well there is yann tiersen, not the most impressive music but certainly renowned and a less famous guy named dave thomas. He started out as a yann tiersen imitation but has his own music now. But agreed i dont know many. Most youtube artists i see who play piano as a first instrument play the accordion rather static.

Bengt Hallberg, Ander Larsson, Benny Anderson, Phil Cunningham have recordings of both piano and PA on youtube.
Sone Banger studied organ at school it is said.
Buckwheat Zydeco played organ as well.
I am only mentioning those famous people I can assure you play both pianoorgan and accordion.
It is very easy to find people who play both.
I have met people who play both and nothing is strange about it!

 

[Waldo]

In the interest of factual accuracy;
Sidney Bechet played soprano SAX, not clarinet. A straight, Bb Buescher (pronounced "Bish-er") model.

Waldo

 

[donn]

Bechet played clarinet, too - catch him on Sweetie Dear, 1932.  Granted, the soprano sax was more his signature instrument.  Also he would be by far the most famous player of the contrabass sarrusophone, given that this is probably the sole recorded example of that instrument featured in popular music: Mandy, Make Up Your Mind.  Its technically a double reed instrument, but there were single reed mouthpieces for them that would have been similar to a soprano sax mouthpiece.

 

[Waldo]

You're right! An Albert system, too boot.
Waldo