Piano or cromatic accordion?

[Waldo]

DISCLAIMER: I have never played piano or piano accordion

OPINION: Improv is in the mind. The task is to convert the imagination into the music via whatever instrument is chosen. To that end, we practice a lot. All instruments lend themselves to improv.

CAVEAT: The CBA will permit fingerings that would be more difficult on PA, but that's a design issue, not an improv issue.

Press on, Waldo

 

[JEBrown]

OPINION: Improv is in the mind. The task is to convert the imagination into the music via whatever instrument is chosen. To that end, we practice a lot. All instruments lend themselves to improv.

Fully agree. You need to be comfortable enough with your instrument to let your fingers do the work of converting whats in your head into music without having to think about it too much. Its difficult to think and work out chords and harmonies fast enough to play along. I think you also need to have confidence to be able to improvise - being tentative doesnt work. And practice really helps - seems odd to say it but practicing improvising, having some common chord patterns or shapes in your right hand means you can just pull these out subconsciously when you need to.

 

[lucaluigi72]

Thanks a lot!

 

[Waldo]

Luca,
From your posts, is appears you have chosen the CBA over PA. Being as you also had concerns about improvisation, I thought I'd add some of my experience on this subject. Others may disagree, but my approach has yielded results for me.
My major objective in my music path is to be able to improv at will, and sound good doing it. When I started CBA-C, I started with scales [chromatic 1st.] while perusing the i-net for direction. Most advice was to learn to play on the outer 3 rows first, then move onto the remaining 2 rows. I followed that advice for my first 10 months, while learning songs I knew from my past [not condusive to improv].
I then made a radical change. Having observed many players [and good one's, too] only using the 3 outer rows when playing, I thought it a waste of two perfectly good rows. One of the greatest advantages to the CBA is the versatility/options for fingering. The piano has one way to play two successive notes. The CBA has four ways to make the same passage if you use all five rows.
I stopped playing/learning songs, and instead went back to basics. I focused on two things: mastering the scales [still working on this one] and "centering" my playing on the middle 3 rows. While I learned the 3 scale patterns necessary to play all 12 scales on the outer 3 rows [recommended], "centering" on the middle 3 rows only requires one pattern. This approach also positions notes that fall out of the "center" pattern to be easily accessed on rows 1 and 5. When a big step is required to stay "centered", often the note is right at hand on 1 or 5. The fingering is also usually easier when "centered". I find I use 2-3-4 the most, with row 1 a close second. I use row 5 occasionally compared to the others. I also found I had a hard time converting/moving my already learned songs over to the "center". That muscle memory has a very strong influence. A good reason to get it right the first time.
When doing repetative scale practice, I now start with straight scales, running the full length of the keyboard, not just one octive. Moving between octives can be a challange at first. Then, after 15-30 mins of straight scales [chromatic, all 12 keys, various pentatonic, blues], I start to mix up the scale order, looking for interesting, good sounding combinations of notes. When I discover some combination I like, I then repeate them over and over in the hopes I'll remember them next time I play. I have been doing this for the last 3-4 months and I am more than satisfied with the results. I can't play any more songs than I did 6 months ago [although I play them much better], but, I can sit down and just "play" the thing. And it sounds pretty good, too. This is improv. It's a very satisfing feeling to play what's in your head, however simple.
It is crucial to know where the proper "sound" is located on your keyboard. Not necessarily the name of the note, but the sound [tone]. If you read music, DON'T!!! Improvisation will only come thru instinctively knowing where to go. I have read many posts by people who have played an instrument for many years, but lament they are lost without "the dots" to guide them. Their only shortcoming is they never learned where the proper "sound" is found to fill their imagination. That comes from messin' about as described above.
While I believe a skilled dot reader can learn to improvise, I also believe it is much better to learn to improvise before learning to read music. Improvisation requires freedom, the opposite of the regimentation of "the dots".
One last bit of "advice". I wish I had learned the bass side before learning the right hand. It's not all that difficult, despite the number of buttons. I now believe it would have been easier to get the "rhythm" side down first, then add the "lead". Your piano experience should be of benefit here as you have experience with the two hands doing different things at the same time.
You will not likely find a mainstream teacher who will agree with my approach. I don't have a teacher, so I am unencumbered by tradition. The biggest difference would be "centering", instead of learning the outer 3 rows first. [BTW: The outer 3 row approach prepares the player to adapt between 3-4 & 5 row boxes. Not an issue for me as I will only be playing 5 row].
Good luck on your decision to go squeezy. The CBA is a fantastic instrument with it's design centered around playability. You will discover many nuances associated with the CBA not found in any other instrument. I love it and haven't looked back.
Press on...
Waldo

 

[lucaluigi72]

Yes, now I'm nearly sure I will chose CBA accordion.
I have been very surprised to reed your answer because I started learning CBA accordion as you explain: not learning position of notes and reading scores but just trying to play (without seeing what I was doing at the beginning). I though that was too much complicate beginning trying to visually remember position of notes and that it would be faster to do all the work to my unconscous. As now I do playing the recorder.
As you, I started with 3 first lines but the reason was different: I though they were the foundamentals and in some cases the only one present and so I decided to start learning only with that 3.
Now as you said I will try to move to the 2-3-4 lines because I really think you are right: it can be better in future if I will have a 5 lines accordion.
Of course I think it is important also to learn to read scores but just after your mind have understood positions of sounds.
I also think that all type of instruments influence in some way the type of improvvisations and you will do different music with different system. I think CBA accordion will be interesting for me also for this reason: changing system stimulate you a new way to play and allows you to find new combinations of notes

 

[debra]

...
As you, I started with 3 first lines but the reason was different: I though they were the foundamentals and in some cases the only one present and so I decided to start learning only with that 3.
Now as you said I will try to move to the 2-3-4 lines because I really think you are right: it can be better in future if I will have a 5 lines accordion.
...

It is still a good idea to learn with just rows 1-3 and use the extra rows only when it makes life easier. When I started learning CBA I initially did not think of giving up PA but was doing it in preparation for playing the accordina (which has only 3 rows). Its also good practice to use rows 1-3 for when you start learning to use the convertor for the left hand. That has only 4 rows and when playing an MIII system (3 extra rows of bass buttons instead of a convertor) there are only 3 rows.

Im sure there are advantages to different ways of learning the CBA but using rows 1-3 is the most universal one that prepares you to tackle anything with a button keyboard that is the same system as what you have. You could even play a Finnish CBA which is also like C system but the C is on the 3rd row so when using rows 3-5 on a Finnish accordion its like using rows 1-3 on a normal C system.

 

[Waldo]

Have you decided on B or C yet? There is some good advice on the forum about the two. I play C system. I like the way the CMajor scale cascades down the buttons on C. Playing chromatic scales is easier on B, but that is the only benefit I see {although there may be others]. One of the most useful things I've discovered, is that the treble side is laid out around the circle of 5ths., same as the bass side. Also, it's useful when improvising, to know the interval between buttons, based on what direction you move. One direction will yield a 1/2 step [1 degree], another direction yields a full step [2 degrees] and the third direction yields a step and a half {3 degrees]. An illustration of this is available at <thecipher.com>, a useful site for CBA [mostly C system] but B info, too. There are excellent finger charts there as well; Scales, spellings, intervals, chords, etc. I printed all the CBA stuff out, slapped them into plastic protective sleeves and collected them into a zippered notebook folder. I can toss the book into the car and it survives well. Gives me a constant reference for when I need it.
Another useful thing was I printed out a bunch of the blank button board forms available at The Cipher. I then took all the scales I have found [chord patterns, too] and sat down with a keyboard illustration showing the treble button notes. I then plotted out all possible fingerings for every scale and chord [up to 7th.], connecting the "pattern" with a solid line. I found that I rarely refer to these "maps", mostly because the act of finding the notes on the keyboard and then transcribing them to the blank button board printout was enough for me to assimilate the info. A quick glance and I can finger what I see there. Not everyone learns this way, but it may help.
Once you get up and running, be sure to practice the full length of the keyboard, not just an octive, and work in all scales. Not looking at the keyboard when learning scale patterns is a very good approach. I looked at first. I was then playing a french style box with all white buttons. I then went over to a box with black and white buttons and It caused a host of problems. Why, you may ask? Ihe visual disruption of the black keys screwed up my perception of the buttons, and I didn't know where to go. It took some time for me to adapt. Interestingly, the tunes I knew well, I could play "blind", and if I did so, I played them just fine. It's the learning of the pattern that is the solution to being able to move from musical key to musical key efficentally. Looking only distracts from the brain/muscle coordination.
One last thing. I wish I had learned the bass side first, and then the treble side.
Enjoy your new path, I know I do!
Press on...
Waldo

P.S. I also agree with what Paul says above with respect to being able to play other similar instruments. I mentioned in another post that at 68 [saturday], I wasn't really interested in being wholly accordion capable. I have my two CBA's, and that's gonna be it. Others may have different goals and getting proficient on 3 rows makes sense. It was watching these accomplished players on Utube, playing 5 row CBA's, but only utializing 3 rows, and then my experience having difficulties moving my already learned songs to a "centered" approach that convinced me it was a better approach for my limited time available with this challenging instrument. Alas, I don't expect to ever make it to Finland, although I'd like to.

 

[debra]

Have you decided on B or C yet? There is some good advice on the forum about the two...

I believe Luca is from Italy and in that case there isnt a real choice: Italians play C system.
In other areas (like where I live) there is a mix of systems, but in Italy its all C system (like in France).

 

[donn]

Another possible advantage to learning 1/2/3 and ignoring the other rows to start with - this is in the "do as I say, and not as I do" category, or "learn from my mistake" - I've belatedly noticed that my weak spots on musical instruments are often the notes that may be played either of two ways, and this is one of them. The fingering might be easier if I go to the 4th row for a particular passage, but that choice has taken me the longest to get used to, it adds a level of complexity that really may not be worth the savings - especially since often enough, the benefit is really negligible.

 

[george garside]

not sure about the benefit of using the 4th ( and 5th) rows as being negligible but agree with you that is best to learn using just the outside 3 rows getting the hang of the 3 scales required for all 12 as against the one that is possible using 5 rows.
One of the reasons for using just 3 rows to begin with is that , to me, some key changes in or between tunes is easierer to finger if you are familier with the 3 scale patterns.

Similarly I recommend would be British Chromatic players to learn initially just using the two outside rows

george

 

[donn]

not sure about the benefit of using the 4th ( and 5th) rows as being negligible

Note that its negligible and often enough, its negligible are two very different assertions. So you should not be surprised if we agree on the above as you stated it.

 

[Waldo]

I'd just like to point out that in my previous post, I recommended learning the three key patterns necessary for the 3-row only approach, which seems to be the main argument for said approach (excepting tradition, of course). I really don't see any benefit to it, other than to be able to play 3-row instruments requiring use of the 3 key patterns.
It's one thing to learn the scale patterns and move those patterns around the keyboard, and quite another to learn the pattern of a song and then move that pattern around [at least in my experience]. This is my main argument for the "centered" approach.
Press on....
Waldo

 

[donn]

I have to admit that I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not myself a major advocate of the 3/5 transposing principle, just because for myself transposing doesn't seem like that considerable of an issue. But my limited experience suggests it should work fine, and you're saying it doesn't? That it works for scales but not songs? Why not?

 

[maugein96]

Hi Luca,

Been off the forum for a while and just picked up on this thread.

You don't mention whether you are interested in playing popular Italian accordion music, and if you had I would recommend you watch people like Davide Salvi, Tiziano Ghinazzi, or Massimo Budriesi for inspiration. All three of those guys are wizards on fisarmonica cromatica, and there are many more like them, but those three are from Emilia Romagna where CBA is popular, and I appreciate that the cromatica may not be the most common instrument where you live.

I've never been able to play a piano keyboard and went straight to C system chromatic when I started. I'm not a very great player, but at least I can manage the buttons on the CBA when I just cannot cope with a piano keyboard.

I do believe that most members on the forum would rather play chromatic accordion, although there are many old timers (even older than I am) who have played piano accordion all of their lives and wouldn't change now.

You are still at the stage where you can make a choice and if you are in any way inclined towards chromatic then that's what to go for. If you are passionate about Irish folk music on CBA, rather than the more traditional diatonic "boube" check out Brendan Shine or Fintan Stanley on You Tube. Both of them play C system CBA, and even if you don't like their style you should see other Irish players on chromatics on You Tube. Modern Irish folk music has tended towards what is known in the UK and Ireland as "dry" tuning, but I do believe that the old fashioned musette tuning will still be there for some time.

Depending on the style of Irish music you prefer, you may have to make the choice between a chromatic with "musette" tuning or dry tuning but I'm sure your friends in Stradella will keep you right on that one.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[Waldo]

Donn,
What I meant is, for instance, Ashokan Farewell played (in C) on middle 3 rows has fingering options that aren't available when AF played on the outer 3 rows only. The fingering pattern from the outer 3 rows will transpose to the middle 3 rows, but key changes will require different patterns, even on the center 3 rows [asuming the player sticks to the outer 3 row patterns]. Centering on the middle 3 rows allows the same fingering in all keys. I'm sure you're aware of this already. My main point in all this discussion is, I fail to see the advantage in learning on the 3 outer rows only, and then bringing the upper two rows into play as needed. It's a lot easier to just learn the extra 2 patterns (which I find I don't use that much anymore) for the other keys (scales) and move on. Maybe I'm missing something, but if I am, it hasn't been explained such that I understand it.

This horse may have succumbed..... Different strokes for different folks.
Press on....
Waldo

 

[donn]

What I meant is, for instance, Ashokan Farewell played (in C) on middle 3 rows has fingering options that aren't available when AF played on the outer 3 rows only. The fingering pattern from the outer 3 rows will transpose to the middle 3 rows, but key changes will require different patterns, even on the center 3 rows [asuming the player sticks to the outer 3 row patterns]. Centering on the middle 3 rows allows the same fingering in all keys. I'm sure you're aware of this already.

No, really I have no idea ... maybe someone who actually does this regularly can guess what you mean, but for me you'd have to actually explain it, rather than just make these assertions. If you really need to use different patterns in different keys and can't move 3-row tunes around the keyboard to transpose them to different keys, then we should certainly put an end to that erroneous notion.

 

[Mityr]

No, really I have no idea ... maybe someone who actually does this regularly can guess what you mean, but for me youd have to actually explain it, rather than just make these assertions. If you really need to use different patterns in different keys and cant move 3-row tunes around the keyboard to transpose them to different keys, then we should certainly put an end to that erroneous notion.

I have a limited experience with cba-b - keep this in mind while reading - but I think I can refute.
If you look at http://www.thecipher.com/CBA2123_CnBsys_Spell-7585.gif, what you can see is, that the 2 extra rows are put upon the top of the outer 3 rows in a thought out way, as the chromatic pattern isnt repeated directly above, but shifted to the right. What this means - if you have troubles understanding my sometimes lacking English - is that the intervals and spacial orientation is preserved: yes, you can just move the starting note and play in another key!

Cheers,
Mityr

 

[george garside]

in other words you get 12 keys for the price of one on a 5 row continental box or 12 keys for the price of 3 on a 3 row continental. on the unrelated british chromatic 3 row you get 12 keys for the price of 5.

Which ever way you look at it there is a lot less learning required on the so called 'chromatic' boxes to enable playing in 12 keys than there is on a piano box ( which of course is also 'chromatic!!!)

george

 

[JerryPH]

No. If you know where the notes are, why would it be more difficult? As a matter if fact, on a button, you have more notes in a smaller area, that should make it a small advantage, not a disadvantage.

That said, this would pertain to the expert/virtuoso level. For the beginner, intermediate or some part of the advanced levels, it makes no difference at all.

 

[lucaluigi72]

I have decided to continue and to learn the button accordion.
I am going tu buy the Excelsior that I was playing and that my friend lent me this month. He asked me 800€ and Im sure is a great priece