Piano Accordion v Button Accordion

[wirralaccordion]

A question I have is that if you were listening to an accordion being played, and could not see it, would you be able to tell whether it was a piano accordion or a button accordion based only on what you were hearing?

 

[debra]

It depends on models, because some CBA's are identical to their PA counterpart except for the keyboard, whereas other models may be specific. During a performance it may be hard but if you can just hear every note (in the standard 41 key range) separately then maybe it could sometimes work. On larger CBA instruments with cassotto I can even hear whether they are C-system or B-system just by listening to the notes.

 

[maugein96]

As a CBA player who has had no experience of any type of piano keyboard, Ive very occasionally mistaken PA players for CBA, but not the other way around, as several of the more advanced PA players can get whatever sound they want for all but the odd specific fingerbusting CBA compositions.

Here is the Italian musette tune Chimere, played firstly by Walter Giannarelli on PA:-



Then by the author, CBA player Carlo Venturi on C system CBA:-



There are one or two minor differences when Venturi runs into some phrases with a chromatic intro, and at the very end when he finishes with an extended chromatic run, but I could listen to either player playing that type of music all day. You have to remind yourself that Venturi and Losi are/were both virtuosi players, so relatively few CBA players would be capable of doing what Venturi does on this track.

In this particular tune the difference is fairly minor, but there are others where the difference may be more, or less, apparent.

Short answer is, yes you can tell the difference, especially if you are a CBA player, where you can identify certain tricks that are very difficult to replicate on a PA.

As a final treat here is Walter Losi playing the polka Anna, written by Venturi for CBA, but if you have the skill you can do it!



He gives the game away with one or two PA style glissandos, but if I could play like that on a PA I wouldnt even look at a CBA.

Here is Davide Borghi playing the same number on a CBA (without the jazzy bit). You should be able to hear the CBA buttons rattle differently to Losis PA keys. Both instruments have their limitations, even in the hands of guys like this, and these two clips perhaps show a greater variation in the way the tune is executed by the PA and CBA players concerned. Listen for the staccato machine gun like fire of the CBA compared with the smoother movement of the PA keys, and you should start to get a feel for how to tell the difference. In this track he also plays higher than the usual 41 key PA can reach, so that would also be a way to detect it is a CBA.

 

[debra]

Interesting... Maugein96 interpreted the question as: can you hear from how the instrument is played whether it is PA or CBA whereas I interpreted the question as: can you hear from the sound of the instrument (when exactly the same notes are played) whether it is PA or CBA?
Not sure what Wirralaccordion really meant... but indeed there are two ways to identify the type of instrument: by what is played (certain runs are impossible on PA and others on CBA, and some are very easy on PA and others very easy on CBA, and certain chords or jumps are impossible on PA) or by the sound you hear, as especially some CBAs produce a sound that no PA makes or vice versa, and a C-system CBA may sound different from the same CBA in B-system... In theory we can combine all that knowledge to identify what type of instrument we hear.
We can also go one step further: can you hear from the instrument being played which brand of accordion it is? Perhaps not with all brands, but say just with a concert instrument from Pigini, Bugari, Victoria, Hohner or Jupiter, can we distinguish between the sounds each of these make?

 

[wirralaccordion]

Just to clarify - I meant by the sound you hear.

 

[maugein96]

Paul,

Like yourself, I wasn't really sure what the OP was trying to ascertain. He has responded while I am typing this and I'll put another post on.

Maybe a better comparison would have been to hear the same player tackle the same tune on two different instrument types, reading from the dots. I never considered the possibility that two players playing Italian musette would attempt to play exactly the same notes, so maybe it wasn't the best example, but as you say I interpreted the OP differently.

I wasn't savvy enough to be able to state that certain things were impossible on one instrument or the other, as I have no experience of PA whatsoever, but I know what you mean.

You could always tell a 50s/60s Fratelli Crosio with 3 voice French musette tuning, as they had a very distinct sound. Similarly the two voice "americain" sound of a Cavagnolo was/is pretty unique, but with all the digital sounds now available it's getting rather difficult to tell whether that "distinct" Cava sound is acoustic or digital.

The Maugein "Segurel" tuning is also another unique sound, which I believe involves tuning one of the two flute reeds slightly flat rather than sharp, but I'm not entirely sure how they do it on the LMM instruments concerned. Maugein's website now requires you to register in order to download their catalogue, which contains a sound sample of the instrument concerned, and I cannot find any suitable track where Segurel plays solo, otherwise I'd have posted a clip. Most of his recordings feature two accordions with the other one being a three voice musette, and there are the usual cabrettes and other instruments all making a very distracting din.

It's possible that the flat flute reeds were to compensate for the (very) sharp cabrettes used in the Auvergne/Limousin area, but I'm not sure of that either. At one time I thought I had a Segurel tuned instrument, but thanks to your link to Dirk's accordion tuner I discovered that my off tuned flutes were sharp.

Sorry, most of this post has nothing to do with PA/CBA comparison at all.

EDIT:- Bit the bullet and downloaded Maugein's catalogue. They have taken all the sound samples off but I can confirm the Segurel tuning is one flute sharp and not flat as I have suggested. As usual I made an uneducated guess and got caught out. The only apparent difference between their Segurel and ordinary Mini Sonora model that I have is that the Segurel has 5 rows of treble buttons arranged in Segurel's preferred fashion, and it only has 80 basses instead of 96. Segurel's accordion sounds different from mine, but I've still no idea what that Segurel tuning is.

 

[maugein96]

Just to clarify - I meant by the sound you hear.

Hi,

Were the clips I posted of any use to you, or did I not pick up on what you were asking correctly?

Was it maybe the case that you were just talking about listening to one single accordion being played and being able to tell whether it was a PA or CBA? I think that would be very difficult unless the player performed one of the playing techniques mentioned by Paul De Bra, which would immediately identify the accordion type.

Can you tell the difference between the sound of an automatic and a manual car gearbox? Its very easy if you know what to listen for, but most people wouldnt have a clue.

 

[debra]

I finally managed to listen a bit to the posted video links. From the sound I'm hearing I could not tell whether it was PA or CBA. From the style, maybe if I were paying attention to the types of runs being played. The range of notes can indeed also be a give-away, but not necessarily. A jazz accordion sometimes has a keyboard going from G to high C, that's 42 notes. I learned that having the high notes is more important than the low notes because the L register is used a lot with high notes. But these instruments would not have the musette used in the videos.
To really hear the difference between the instruments (not the players) slow music works better.

 

[TomBR]

Just wait for the C major glissandi, then you know it's PA!

 

[jozz]

A question I have is that if you were listening to an accordion being played, and could not see it, would you be able to tell whether it was a piano accordion or a button accordion based only on what you were hearing?

Of course :!:

with 50% accuracy :ch

 

[Morne]

A question I have is that if you were listening to an accordion being played, and could not see it, would you be able to tell whether it was a piano accordion or a button accordion based only on what you were hearing?

If we exclude the genre of music and things physically possible only on one or the other instrument - i.e. a non-musical test - then it should be possible to identify a proper bayan (CBA) by the bass. There are some modern Russian PAs with a more bayan-like sound, but statistically I would still guess bayan.

However, if you allow the genre of music to bias the answer - i.e. what players typically play certain music with in certain areas - and you allow an MM register, then it makes it a little easier. I dont listen to much West European CBA, but if I heard that machine gun like staccato in the context of a (faux) French or Italian piece then I would guess CBA. However, maugein96 has shown some good counter examples. If we go over to Russia I would personally guess the following:
- no tremolo -> bayan
- with tremolo and lots of characteristic diatonic decorations -> garmon
- with tremolo and fewer decorations -> PA
Those are the most pronounced things for me that I can write down as far as post hoc theorising goes.

 

[george garside]

not sure what this thread is really about but to muddy the waters one way of identifying a british chromatic box by sound is that it is impossible to play a full G maj chord on the treble G and D being in opposite directions and so it is impossible to come and go at the same time. So where a G maj chord is required eg as an introduction to a dance tune in G you have to make do with GBG. and of course the full G maj chord on the bass,
george

 

[maugein96]

Not really sure where this thread is now going either, but I used to be able to tell whether an old Glasgow Corporation bus with a Daimler engine was fitted with a BSA turbo transmitter from over a mile away. I honed that particular skill because, as well as the distinct musical qualities, it also served to indicate that I was about to take over a bus that was capable of 50mph instead of the usual 38 mph for that type of vehicle.

However, Im afraid that skill is of no use at all in the music world, as I cannot now remember what approximate key would apply to each gear.

Here is what these flying machines looked like. Accordion connection? This bus is a case in point in telling the difference between a PA and a CBA. The ones without turbo transmitters were Pathetic Attempts at being decent buses, whereas these were Considerably Better Attempts, and you could tell the difference between them just by listening.

The backdrop is the particularly picturesque Parliamentary Road in Glasgow outside the old Dundas Street Bus Station. It actually looked better when they finally demolished the lot. This fast bus would typically be right behind the slower one in front, as there was a 4 minute headway. :lol:

 

[george garside]

presumably the 'turbo transmitter' was some sort of torque converter rather than the normal Daimler fluid flywheel and preselector box
g

 

[debra]

not sure what this thread is really about but to muddy the waters one way of identifying a british chromatic box by sound is that it is impossible to play a full G maj chord on the treble G and D being in opposite directions and so it is impossible to come and go at the same time. So where a G maj chord is required eg as an introduction to a dance tune in G you have to make do with GBG. and of course the full G maj chord on the bass,
george

That would be a diatonic box, not chromatic. A chromatic accordion (PA or CBA) has all notes available, on the same key or button, in both directions.

 

[debra]

Further to my earlier statement that I can distinguish between a (large) CBA with C-system and one with B-system, it is about subtle differences in sound. When you play the single M register it is most noticeable. The first three rows of buttons (the other two are just repeats) correspond to three reed blocks in the cassotto and three reed blocks outside of the cassotto. The reed block for the first row is deepest inside the cassotto. The block for the third row is closest to the "exit", and the M reed closer to that exit than the L reed. The result is that the M register is more mellow (more cassotto effect) for the first row than for the third row. So all I need to hear is for instance a G# and an A in the standard octave (A=440). On a C-system CBA the A is more mellow than the G# and on the identical B-system CBA the G# is more mellow than the A.
The effect is much less pronounced with the L register, which is why many (and I too) prefer to use the L register over the M register.

 

[maugein96]

presumably the turbo transmitter was some sort of torque converter rather than the normal Daimler fluid flywheel and preselector box
g

George,

We only had 5 of these buses, which were two pedal semi-automatics with what was known as Daimatic control. Fluid flywheels, but with semi-automatic rather than pre-select gearboxes. The turbo transmitters appeared to work on a similar principle to modern turbo diesel technology, and after complaints about drivers speeding (47mph in a 30mph limit) and poor fuel consumption (often discovered when they ran out of fuel in service as no reliable fuel gauges in those days), the fitters disconnected the turbo transmitters. However, somebody blew an engine and they discovered the warranty was void as the transmitter had been disabled. They therefore had to connect the other 4 back up until they decided to whip out the Daimler engines and replace them with Gardners over a year later. The other 45 buses in the batch looked identical and had the same transmission, but were very much slower, as they had no turbos.

We did have over 200 of the pre-select Daimlers you mention, but they were a bit older, and a lot slower than their Leyland and AEC stablemates from the same era of the 50s/60s. The last buses I drove before I retired in 2016 could often do 70 mph if they never had speed limiters on them, and we often had to make use of their speed (illegally)in an effort to keep to time. Mind you, they were so light we had trouble even keeping the single deckers on the road in high winds.

Old buses were like old accordions, they lasted forever. We usually managed to trash the modern £200,000 piles of junk in a few years.

 

[maugein96]

presumably the turbo transmitter was some sort of torque converter rather than the normal Daimler fluid flywheel and preselector box
g

George,

We only had 5 of these buses, which were two pedal semi-automatics with what was known as Daimatic control. Fluid flywheels, but with semi-automatic rather than pre-select gearboxes. The turbo transmitters appeared to work on a similar principle to modern turbo diesel technology, and after complaints about drivers speeding (47mph in a 30mph limit) and poor fuel consumption (often discovered when they ran out of fuel in service as no reliable fuel gauges in those days), the fitters disconnected the turbo transmitters. However, somebody blew an engine and they discovered the warranty was void as the transmitter had been disabled. They therefore had to connect the other 4 back up until they decided to whip out the Daimler engines and replace them with Gardners over a year later. The other 45 buses in the batch looked identical and had the same transmission, but were very much slower, as they had no turbos.

We did have over 200 of the pre-select Daimlers you mention, but they were a bit older, and a lot slower than their Leyland and AEC stablemates from the same era of the 50s/60s. The last buses I drove before I retired in 2016 could often do 70 mph if they never had speed limiters on them, and we often had to make use of their speed (illegally)in an effort to keep to time. Mind you, they were so light we had trouble even keeping the single deckers on the road in high winds.

Old buses were like old accordions, they lasted forever. We usually managed to trash the modern £200,000 piles of junk in a few years.

This was the Glasgow bus, par excellence. Leyland PD2 with semi auto transmission, also known as the wee Leyland. Went like the proverbial stuff off a shovel, and no Daimler could ever hope to keep up with them, turbo transmitter or not. The acceleration on these was phenomenal (for a bus), and their short length meant they were ideal for city bus work. Pneumo cyclic transmission (2 pedal semi-auto).

 

[george garside]

not sure what this thread is really about but to muddy the waters one way of identifying a british chromatic box by sound is that it is impossible to play a full G maj chord on the treble G and D being in opposite directions and so it is impossible to come and go at the same time. So where a G maj chord is required eg as an introduction to a dance tune in G you have to make do with GBG. and of course the full G maj chord on the bass,
george

That would be a diatonic box, not chromatic. A chromatic accordion (PA or CBA) has all notes available, on the same key or button, in both directions.

we must be using different definitions of chromatic. According to the Oxford dictionary chromatic is defined as of or having notes not belonging to a particular diatonic scale

That makes the British Chromatic definitely chromatic . the fact that it also has 3 diatonic rows does not in any way exclude it from that definition. It has 2 of every note exept GDA of which it has only one.

5 scales worth of learning are required to play in 12 major keys.

george

 

[Geronimo]

not sure what this thread is really about but to muddy the waters one way of identifying a british chromatic box by sound is that it is impossible to play a full G maj chord on the treble G and D being in opposite directions and so it is impossible to come and go at the same time. So where a G maj chord is required eg as an introduction to a dance tune in G you have to make do with GBG. and of course the full G maj chord on the bass,
george

That would be a diatonic box, not chromatic. A chromatic accordion (PA or CBA) has all notes available, on the same key or button, in both directions.

we must be using different definitions of chromatic. According to the Oxford dictionary chromatic is defined as of or having notes not belonging to a particular diatonic scale

That makes the British Chromatic definitely chromatic . the fact that it also has 3 diatonic rows does not in any way exclude it from that definition. It has 2 of every note exept GDA of which it has only one.

5 scales worth of learning are required to play in 12 major keys.

The arrangement is diatonic, but then so is the arrangement on a piano accordion. So this may be one case where using the terms unisonoric and bisonoric instead of chromatic and diatonic might help for ending up talking about the same things.