New at CBA--Fingerings

[LibraryJoe]

Hi all,
I've been a member of the forum for about a year and a half, and have played the piano accordion off and on since the mid-1960s (though mostly on since the 1990s). I'll admit, like many accordionists of my age, an accordion sat safely tucked in the closet as I realized that as a bespectacled, small-ish, and not very athletic kid, I didn't want an accordion to help my image along, as it never was going to get me into the cool kids cafeteria table.

In the 1990s, safely married for some 15 years and the father of two, the accordion and I reconnected.

I purchased my first CBA accordion about a month and a half ago, and I'm finding the transition from piano accordion surprisingly easier than I expected. All my years of piano accordion haven't really hurt this 69 year old noobie, though I'm only finishing up book 2 of Palmer Hughes and getting ready for the William Tell Overture in boook 3. It's interesting to me that my accordion teacher Mr. Moeck dated the introduction of that song on January 31, 1966. I was quite a few months away from my first lesson including "Batter-Up!" on April 12, 1965. I seem to be progressing faster than I did at age eleven!

None of the above really has anything to do with the following request for help....

I've been using the Galliano and Maugain method books for learning CBA, and supplementing them with the Palmer Hughes early method books. I should begin scale studies and practice at this stage... but Galliano and Maugain use very different fingering. Which fingering should I follow? I imagine that if I concentrate on one over the other, the suggested fingerings in the respective songs are going to be different. And then, I have to ignore the PH fingerings which were written for piano accordion.

Any help at choosing Galliano over Maugain scale fingering would be appreciated. BTW, I'm playing a C system 62-72 CBA.
Joe

 

[Walker]

Hi @LibraryJoe, while you wait for a sensible answer to your button key conundrum, you have reminded me of back in the day when I was learning to play the piano accordion. My accordion teacher was a great man and a teacher of the absolute highest standard, he was actually a multi-instrumentalist (he played 9 instruments). Anyway, much of my learning was by working through tunes (from several sources) of increasing technical demand, mainly of the Scottish variety but also the occasional French musette and semi-classical, mid-century accordion pieces/arrangements for stradella bass accordion, you know, like Frosini, Tollefsen etc. My teacher would generally work out the fingering of the tunes (and I would gradually learn the principles). So the learning was all through the teacher, with the tunes and scales etc. as a bit of material to practice, but not following a published method.

What interests me is that button accordionists have a number of method books and that different sources give very different advice, maybe using different fingering or different 'rows' for the same scale or tune. This shows the flexibility of the button accordion. However, in some ways, it makes things a bit complicated and it's a shame that the flexibility can become confusing at times for some. With flexibility comes more choices. By contrast to your studies now, the books I used to study scales were not even written for the accordion. I used only two books (aside from all the tunes). Firstly, a Manual of Scales, Arpeggios and Broken Chords for Pianoforte. Secondly, Hanon - The Virtuoso Pianist. My teacher taught me the stradella bass scales himself and the practical application of them was through the tunes I played etc.

I guess what I am saying is that, I can see how trying to self-teach button accordion can be tricky when you don't have the guidance of a teacher. It also seems to me that by contrast there is a certain simplicity to the piano keyboard, that only has 1 key for 1 note. Sure, creative fingerings are available on PA, but the actual key position is where it is, no repeats in other rows, not like CBA. I suppose piano accordion is a harder instrument to master because of the inflexible keyboard, but maybe that's what makes it such an engaging challenge for me.

Regarding button accordion, I'm sure someone will be along in a while. I'd like to suggest you follow Galliano, as he is one of my favourite accordionists ever, but I don't think good advice really works like that... I would say the best thing might be to get a button accordion teacher and follow their guidance and the books may well come in handy from time to time.​

All the best.

W.

 

[skybrian]

I use the Galliano book and don't have the Maugain book, so I can't directly answer your question. But from what I've read online, there seems to be little consensus on how to finger scales on a C-system CBA. Also, I don't like the Galliano book's fingering for playing a C scale because there's an awkward jump from F to G. Perhaps there's a teaching purpose for it, but unless someone is able to ask Galliano what it's for, we don't know. We discussed this recently on Reddit, and someone suggested a fingering from a Swedish method book that I quite like so far.

I find most fingerings for actual songs in the Galliano book to be decent, although sometimes a little harder than seems necessary? And I've seen what appear to be mistakes where the fingering isn't playable. (Reversing 2 and 4 for a bass fingering.) So I think what it comes down to is, try the fingerings that the books suggest, but use your own judgement on whether the they make sense for you.

 

[dunlustin]

This may not be what you are looking for:
First of all, I'm not a great fan of Maugain - I find his books are very uneven.
(See also the post 'Is Maugain Pulling my Leg?')
I like Galliano.
It is often said that, unlike piano, the CBA is more about choices than rules.
Most people advise getting a good grasp over 3 rows and then explore how Row4 makes things easier/flow better.
Often the choice of fingering will depend on the notes either side.
Here are 3 methods that should be available on line:
Accordion Technique (elementary level) Gorka Hermosa
Méthode d’Accordéon Astier et Baselli
Metodo Berben
Maybe you could look at the opening lessons and see if they help you come to a decision?

 

[Siegmund]

I can tell you how I practice my scales (on B system, so the exact fingerings are different but the principles are the same):

Why do we learn scales? To make us better at playing real music.
If you only learn one fingering for a scale, you're IMO learning something (nearly) useless. In real music, scales don't always start on C and don't always run for exactly 1 or 2 octaves. Suppose you learn the pattern that goes "CDEF - move your hand - GABC". Now what happens when you see C-B-C-D in your music? Are you really going to put your hand in the GABC-position, play 3 notes, and then move your whole hand to play the D?

You may notice that in the major scale, there are a total of four different four-note patterns. One goes whole step - whole step - half step, and makes a V-shape on your keyboard: in C major, CDEF and GABC look like this. Another goes whole - half - whole and makes a zigzag on your keyboard: DEFG and ABCD look like this. A third goes half-whole-whole, and make a V shape in the opposite direction to the other V shape: EFGA and BCDE look like this. And finally, FGAB is whole-whole-whole, and either puts all 4 fingers in a diagonal row, or you leap between the front rows and the back rows at some point.

For each of those 4 4-note figures, there are just a couple of hand positions, with just a couple reasonable fingerings, that you can reasonably use for them.

When I play scales, my goal is to get my hand used to all 4 of these hand positions, and used to moving between them. What I DONT do is play a multi-octave scale in alternating groups of 3 and 4 notes, and repeat the same fingering in each octave, whether it's 123 1234 123 1234 like a pianist might learn, or a pattern out of Person X's accordion method.

I do one of these:
(Pattern I) CDEF (move hand ) GABC (pattern II) DEFG (move hand) ABCD (pattern III) EFGA (move hand) BCDE (pattern IV) FGAB (pattern I) and going back down: CBAG (I) FEDC (IV) BAGF (III) EDCB AGFE (II) DCBA GFED C.

(I) CDEF (III) EFGA (I) GABC (III) BCDE (II) DEFG (IV) FGAB (II) ABCDC..... and down: (I) CBAG (III) AGFE (I) FEDC (II) DCBA (IV) BAGF (II) GFED (III) EDCBC.

(I) CDEF (II) DEFG (III) EFGA (IV) FGAB (I) GABC (II) ABCD (III) BCDE and down: (I) CBAG (IV) BAGF (III) AGFE (II) GFED (I) FEDC (III) EDCB (II) DCBA C.

My goal is so that when a real piece of music comes along and I see any little fragment that sits within the range of a fourth, my fingers are ready to play the pattern that covers it.

 

[LibraryJoe]

Hi @LibraryJoe, while you wait for a sensible answer to your button key conundrum, you have reminded me of back in the day when I was learning to play the piano accordion. My accordion teacher was a great man and a teacher of the absolute highest standard, he was actually a multi-instrumentalist (he played 9 instruments). Anyway, much of my learning was by working through tunes (from several sources) of increasing technical demand, mainly of the Scottish variety but also the occasional French musette and semi-classical, mid-century accordion pieces/arrangements for stradella bass accordion, you know, like Frosini, Tollefsen etc. My teacher would generally work out the fingering of the tunes (and I would gradually learn the principles). So the learning was all through the teacher, with the tunes and scales etc. as a bit of material to practice, but not following a published method.

What interests me is that button accordionists have a number of method books and that different sources give very different advice, maybe using different fingering or different 'rows' for the same scale or tune. This shows the flexibility of the button accordion. However, in some ways, it makes things a bit complicated and it's a shame that the flexibility can become confusing at times for some. With flexibility comes more choices. By contrast to your studies now, the books I used to study scales were not even written for the accordion. I used only two books (aside from all the tunes). Firstly, a Manual of Scales, Arpeggios and Broken Chords for Pianoforte. Secondly, Hanon - The Virtuoso Pianist. My teacher taught me the stradella bass scales himself and the practical application of them was through the tunes I played etc.

I guess what I am saying is that, I can see how trying to self-teach button accordion can be tricky when you don't have the guidance of a teacher. It also seems to me that by contrast there is a certain simplicity to the piano keyboard, that only has 1 key for 1 note. Sure, creative fingerings are available on PA, but the actual key position is where it is, no repeats in other rows, not like CBA. I suppose piano accordion is a harder instrument to master because of the inflexible keyboard, but maybe that's what makes it such an engaging challenge for me.

Regarding button accordion, I'm sure someone clever will be along in a while. I'd like to suggest you follow Galliano, as he is one of my favourite accordionists ever, but I don't think good advice really works like that... I would say the best thing might be to get a button accordion teacher and follow their guidance and the books may well come in handy from time to time.​

All the best.

W.

Thank you Walker for your thoughtful message. I will definitely take out some of my piano accordion books and experiment-- I own a Hanon for the accordion, and at least a couple of arpeggio and scale books. Your response really helps me feel I'm not unique in experiencing fingering questions. I do think the Galliano book is pretty good, but does get difficult pretty quickly-- but it's a start.

 

[LibraryJoe]

This may not be what you are looking for:
First of all, I'm not a great fan of Maugain - I find his books are very uneven.
(See also the post 'Is Maugain Pulling my Leg?')
I like Galliano.
It is often said that, unlike piano, the CBA is more about choices than rules.
Most people advise getting a good grasp over 3 rows and then explore how Row4 makes things easier/flow better.
Often the choice of fingering will depend on the notes either side.
Here are 3 methods that should be available on line:
Accordion Technique (elementary level) Gorka Hermosa
Méthode d’Accordéon Astier et Baselli
Metodo Berben
Maybe you could look at the opening lessons and see if they help you come to a decision?

Thank you for your suggestions! I will spend some time tomorrow exploring. There's actually more out there than I thought. This forum really provides a service!

 

[LibraryJoe]

I can tell you how I practice my scales (on B system, so the exact fingerings are different but the principles are the same):

Why do we learn scales? To make us better at playing real music.
If you only learn one fingering for a scale, you're IMO learning something (nearly) useless. In real music, scales don't always start on C and don't always run for exactly 1 or 2 octaves. Suppose you learn the pattern that goes "CDEF - move your hand - GABC". Now what happens when you see C-B-C-D in your music? Are you really going to put your hand in the GABC-position, play 3 notes, and then move your whole hand to play the D?

You may notice that in the major scale, there are a total of four different four-note patterns. One goes whole step - whole step - half step, and makes a V-shape on your keyboard: in C major, CDEF and GABC look like this. Another goes whole - half - whole and makes a zigzag on your keyboard: DEFG and ABCD look like this. A third goes half-whole-whole, and make a V shape in the opposite direction to the other V shape: EFGA and BCDE look like this. And finally, FGAB is whole-whole-whole, and either puts all 4 fingers in a diagonal row, or you leap between the front rows and the back rows at some point.

For each of those 4 4-note figures, there are just a couple of hand positions, with just a couple reasonable fingerings, that you can reasonably use for them.

When I play scales, my goal is to get my hand used to all 4 of these hand positions, and used to moving between them. What I DONT do is play a multi-octave scale in alternating groups of 3 and 4 notes, and repeat the same fingering in each octave, whether it's 123 1234 123 1234 like a pianist might learn, or a pattern out of Person X's accordion method.

I do one of these:
(Pattern I) CDEF (move hand ) GABC (pattern II) DEFG (move hand) ABCD (pattern III) EFGA (move hand) BCDE (pattern IV) FGAB (pattern I) and going back down: CBAG (I) FEDC (IV) BAGF (III) EDCB AGFE (II) DCBA GFED C.

(I) CDEF (III) EFGA (I) GABC (III) BCDE (II) DEFG (IV) FGAB (II) ABCDC..... and down: (I) CBAG (III) AGFE (I) FEDC (II) DCBA (IV) BAGF (II) GFED (III) EDCBC.

(I) CDEF (II) DEFG (III) EFGA (IV) FGAB (I) GABC (II) ABCD (III) BCDE and down: (I) CBAG (IV) BAGF (III) AGFE (II) GFED (I) FEDC (III) EDCB (II) DCBA C.

My goal is so that when a real piece of music comes along and I see any little fragment that sits within the range of a fourth, my fingers are ready to play the pattern that covers it.

Yes, I see your point that learning a scale in one position is nearly useless. I will begin exploring during tomorrow's practice session. Your explanation is thoughtful and allows me to understand the reasoning behind this technique, which is new to me. Thank you for your response, Joe

 

[losthobos]

For what it's worth I never practiced scales, but I have practiced chord shapes and arpeggios...
For me it's important to know where a tune is heading chordally....and then find the shapes that capture this leaving the melody note on top of the shape...avoid forked fingers..
Also try the phrase with different fingerings till you find the one that sounds smoothest and dynamic...this is the fingering you need for this piece and will change tune to tune...
As a general tip if the melody is rising I may start on the first row and the climb diagonally along and up the keyboard to the fifth row if need be...similar rule when the melody is falling I may start on the fifth row and fall diagonally along and down the keyboard back to the first row...
Just ideas...but most importantly listen to the sound of the phrase..
Good luck

 

[dunlustin]

Just a note of caution:
Exercises designed to 'master' the piano keyboard are not necessarily best suited to a button accordion, whatever the layout
(C,B,3rd row C, diatonic...).
Simple example: A chromatic scale

 

[LibraryJoe]

For what it's worth I never practiced scales, but I have practiced chord shapes and arpeggios...
For me it's important to know where a tune is heading chordally....and then find the shapes that capture this leaving the melody note on top of the shape...avoid forked fingers..
Also try the phrase with different fingerings till you find the one that sounds smoothest and dynamic...this is the fingering you need for this piece and will change tune to tune...
As a general tip if the melody is rising I may start on the first row and the climb diagonally along and up the keyboard to the fifth row if need be...similar rule when the melody is falling I may start on the fifth row and fall diagonally along and down the keyboard back to the first row...
Just ideas...but most importantly listen to the sound of the phrase..
Good luck

Makes good sense to me!

 

[dunlustin]

LJ: "Makes good sense to me!"
Does this mean you are no longer concerned about your scales?