Never too old to learn?

[maugein96]

OK, at 65 I'm just a youngster to some members on here, but just wondered if anybody about my own age had decided to take lessons after many years of playing without any formal instruction? Lack of a suitable teacher for CBA meant I had to teach myself to play, something that I found exceptionally difficult, and after 30 odd years on and off decided I had hit that brick wall where I just wasn't able to progress without guidance.

Now, I knew my playing wasn't great, and I would admit that I never paid as much attention to the left hand as I should have. Similarly, as a "play by ear" type, I have never been overly concerned about whether I'm playing the music precisely as it is written, and the "tempo" I choose depends on which version I prefer to listen to. Suffice to say that lack of a teacher has been an issue, and I recently decided to go and see what I was doing wrong. I'd like to point out that my playing seldom ever involves an audience. I just shut myself away and try to play tunes I like, without worrying about whether I'm making a decent job of them or not.

Lesson one took me way back to being an 11 year old student of the trumpet at school. I would play the tunes at home without any trouble at all, but as soon as I was put on the spot in the class, it all fell to pieces. The main problem was the tempo. Now, as then, I simply cannot play music note perfect by sight reading. It is a discipline that seems to be impossible for me to acquire. I can "read" the notes, but will invariably put the odd note in or leave the odd one out as the case may be. I put it down to some sort of "condition" whereby I'm just not comfortable with having to learn anything by rote, especially music.

Despite the best efforts of my teacher, I have been shovelling through the same relatively straightforward tune for weeks, without making much progress at all, and am just about ready to call a halt to the whole process, as the things he tells me in one lesson have largely been forgotten by the next.

I have been able to put some of what I've learned to use elsewhere, but am fast approaching the point where I'm not looking forward to the lessons at all. It should all be about enjoyment, and I'm sorry to say that just isn't the case.
Remember, I started playing when I was in my early 30s, so my first priority is a sort of "unlearning process". Faced with a revised fingering method and the requirement to do things strictly by the book, I'm pushing a very large wheelbarrow up a hill that seems to be getting heavier all the time. I am learning new skills, but it's a very slow and uncomfortable process.

In another thread Paul DeBra gave indication that in his experience some accordion beginners in the over 60 bracket had extreme difficulty with the learning process, and I just wondered if anybody else had experienced the same sort of thing. The eternal situation of old dogs and new tricks is perhaps a major factor.

 

[george garside]

When teaching ( folk/ trad /'jolly tunes not exams and grades stuff) I offer a free of charge initial assessment of anything up to an hour.
This enables both the would be student and myself

to weigh each other up and decide whether or not we can work together

to draw up an achievable set of goals ( that can of course be modified as we go along) taking into account previous instrumental experience, physical health, manual dexterity etc. . eg I would discourage a 70 year old with no instrumental experience and maybe a bit of arthritis in the fingers and maybe new to the box from thinking he could learn to play fast jigs and reels overnight. I might suggest we aim for some easy waltzes played well or maybe so sing along stuff etc.

I also agree a frequence for lessons and payment on a lesson by lesson basis rather than for a course of lessons and encourage students to pack it in if they feel it is not working. or becoming a 'chore'

I also reserve the right to to draw things to a close if I feel unable to help a student make furthur advances


If at the end of the initial assessment I feel I that the vibes between the student anad I are not quite right I ssuggest that I am not the right man for the job. To ensure that the would be student is genuinely happy to proceed I ask them to think about it anad phone me in a weelks time if they want to book a lesson or lessons.


This has worked well for many years , some students coming for a couple of years, others for just a few lessons and others joining my 'occsionals' list who just phone me as and when they feel the need to bat some ideas round or whatever.

With older students is all about tailoring the tuition to fit their individual aspirations and ability rather than ''working through books 1,2,3 etc!

george

 

[jozz]

time to change teacher!

don't give up, older people who try new things should be admired and cheered on

 

[maugein96]

Hi George,

The arrangement we have is more or less as you describe, with the only difference being that if I want to keep the lessons going then it would appear that I have to do things "properly", or not at all. My teacher was taught by a lady who was known to be a stickler for attention to detail, but he was taught as a youngster without having acquired 30 odd years of "accordion vices".

There's no doubt about it that my self taught approach hasn't really worked, as if it had I would probably have been playing at venues years ago, without worrying whether I'd be able to play anything more than a few tunes without too many mistakes. Seems some people are natural musicians, able to relax enough to be able to entertain an audience, and the rest are like me, who have the desire to do just that, but are just not of the right calibre.

Having said that, I've always had a lot of enjoyment out of playing various instruments at home, just for the benefit of friends and family, who know what my limitations are, and who aren't really going to notice my bad accordion technique.

My playing has improved slightly since I started out on the lessons, as I've been shown ways to minimise mistakes, and the door has also been opened with regard to the bass side of the instrument, which is still lacking.

A lot of people like myself with experience of playing other instruments reckon that the accordion will be easy. It probably is if you learn it as your first instrument, but if you're used to playing instruments that can only produce a single note at a time, then you cannot afford to skip through right hand chords and bass accompaniment, like I did during my period of self tuition. Bellows direction is another thing I cannot get quite right. I instinctively know when I need to change to avoid losing a note or part of a phrase, but I just cannot get the notion of playing a tune with exactly the same bellows movement each time.

Perhaps the accordion was not the best choice of instrument for me as a latish starter, as there can be just too much to concentrate on at times. I've got until 5th November to make my mind up whether to donate 4 boxes to the local bonfire club, or continue to thole the pain of trying to "improve".

I would love to try a change of teacher Jozz, but it took me over 30 years to find the one I've got. CBA was always a niche instrument here in Scotland, and in recent years it seems that it has become even less popular.

 

[Tom]

I'm another oldster on here, and agree that it is much harder to learn new things, but not impossible. You probably play a lot better than you give yourself credit for. Here's the thing, there are people out there that would really love to see you play, regardless of your ability, and this would be good for both you and them. I volunteer once or twice a month, I'm talking about churches, nursing homes, community centers, support groups, anywhere there are lonely people seeking an hour of enjoyment. I guarantee if you play in one of these low-stress situations an hour would equal 3 hours of lessons. It will do wonders for your self esteem as well as your musicality. Ask around to your friends that play this type of event, soon you will have more than you can handle.

Ok, don't beat yourself up. Build your REAL repertoire. Is there ONE song you can play through without looking at music or your keys? Play it every day. If you can't play one, start with one. Add one more, and one more after that. Play through your repertoire before you "mess around" with other stuff that you might want to learn. When you have 5 or 10 songs, get a volunteer job, you will be amazed how happy the people are and how good you feel about it.

 

[maugein96]

Hi Tom,

I can play a whole load of tunes right through, from the easier swing type numbers through to French musette, but mature Scottish audiences demand to hear local music they can recognise, and the younger set generally have no interest in any type of accordion music here. I have attempted to play Scottish accordion music, but just cannot get "into" the vibe you need to play it. The tempo is too strict for a player like me who prefers to swing most of the tunes I play, and that does not go down too well. I'll not go further into it as I've moaned my face off about the same phenomenon many times on here already.

Your advice is sound Tom, but I wouldn't get away with playing my own choice of repertoire here. I have also tried Irish music with some success, as the music is closer to my roots than Scottish music, but it has never really captured my interest enough for me to make a real go of it. In any case Irish music would not really be appropriate for the area where I now live.

It's a case of wrong instrument, wrong repertoire, and probably wrong player! I know I can play reasonably well, but there are a lot of rough edges I'm trying to smooth out. I was hoping to have moved to Ireland some years ago, but my wife isn't keen. Had I done so I would probably have switched to Irish music and just got on with the job of playing instead of complaining that I am trapped in the wrong country. Moving to France would give me more scope, and I'll still be an EU citizen next year when my Scottish wife isn't. If they threw her out of France I'd need to follow (to make sure she got on the plane!)

 

[Tom]

I understand where you're coming from, John, but I still wonder about the "captured audience" there. That is to say, the older crowd that are starved for entertainment. Maybe it's different there, and older folks are actually treated with respect, and have many entertainment options. I find that they are so happy to hear music, they like any style I play.
Really, I'd just rather see you with playing options rather than burn your accordions! I believe one should play music you want, rather than what you think people want. And if you play with emotion and passion, you will find an audience.

 

[maugein96]

Tom,

It seems to be a fact that audiences in certain parts of the world are very selective in their listening material, especially where the accordion is "tagged" with a certain genre.

In other places that is not the case, and the accordion turns up in all sorts of music, as it should.

I've tried hard over the years on the forum to convey that phenomenon to those who live in countries where the accordion has a free rein, but have now concluded that you'd need to actually live here to appreciate what I'm talking about.

I'll get there eventually, and thanks for the words of encouragement. Don't worry, I won't burn the accordions. I keep a big 10lb hammer in the cellar that would give me more satisfaction.

 

[Tom]

Thanks John, it's an interesting phenomenon and maybe I will get to visit someday......

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Hi John,

The obvious question you must ask yourself is: "who am I trying to please?"

The only thing that matters is that YOU have fun playing your accordion(s). It doesn't matter much to amateur players who else likes their music.......leave that to the people who are being paid to entertain others.

You know more about the venues I play than most people on here, and you also know that I only play music I like. It just so happens that others seem to like what I play, but that is merely a happy coincidence.

I may hold a note a little longer, or clip a note here and there. I like to call it "my arrangement", though it is really just the way I like to play a particular tune.

All The Best, Old Scout.

Stephen.

 

[maugein96]

Hi Stephen,

Missed this as the post slipped down the leaderboard.

I'm probably in two minds over whether I want to improve my knowledge of theory. I've always had a very casual approach to music of any kind, and re-learning the theory is one thing, but having to rigidly stick to the scores and tempo is possibly not really what I want to achieve. As you say it's all a question of who you're trying to please. In my case that means, me, myself, and nobody else.

It's not as though I'm suddenly going to break out of isolation and take centre stage at an accordion festival. For so long as I don't play the local music on an accordion tuned for the purpose then it's always going to be my music room packed to capacity for every performance. The dog died a few years ago, and we've only one cat left. He sits with me when I play the guitar and even has a go if he can manage it. He gets between my left arm and the fretboard and away he goes.

However, when the accordion is being played he refuses to sit through the performance and cries to get out. Maybe if my playing got better he could manage a few minutes of listening before I had let him out.

Gordon seems to take the view that music is for serious study, and if I was honest I would probably like to meet him somewhere in the middle. If that's not possible then I doubt I'll last very much longer. Maybe if I was 10 years younger and thought it was time to learn to play properly it would be different. However, 6 weeks of trying to play the same tune until I get it note perfect at my age isn't my idea of enjoyment. I will say that I have learned quite a bit in the 6 or so lessons I've had, and perhaps there will come a time when I feel there's not much more to be gained out of battering my head against the wall.

The moral of the story is if you're going to get a teacher, get one when you first start. If you wait for 35 years it's not a music teacher you need, it's a magician.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Hi John,

It doesn't matter a damn what Gordon likes or wants. You and I are too old to be serious about things ....... it is pleasure we seek, not drudgery.

Tom made a brilliant point a few posts back. He plays at local community events, and, as Tom says, it really does improve your playing.

I know that there are Folk Clubs near you that don't play all the sectarian stuff you don't like. One such club is the Rolling Hills Folk Club, Smith Memorial Hall, Darnick. Give it a spin ...... what have you got to lose?

Kind Regards,

Stephen.

 

[Corsaire]

time to change teacher!
dont give up, older people who try new things should be admired and cheered on

Absolutely right. Theres no doubt that its easier for some people than others, but that could apply whatever your age.

The moral of the story is if youre going to get a teacher, get one when you first start. If you wait for 35 years its not a music teacher you need, its a magician.

Yes, its much easier to have lessons right from the start of anything you want to learn. Having to effectively re-learn something youve been doing for years is much harder and can be very frustrating. Ive spoken German for years but never had a lesson, and certainly couldnt start now !
Finding the right teacher is vital - there needs to be a good teacher-student rapport. If you arent enjoying your lessons, you are less likely to progress in the way you want.

I agree with Tom and Stephen that playing to oldies is really enjoyable because you see them come to life, and it does help you advance. I dont think I could play for people who had fixed ideas of what should be played and how it should be played. It stifles creativity. As for that sectarian nonsense .....

Yep, give the clubs a go - playing with others really does get you going, and you might find you learn something new from other accordion players.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Stephen!

I agree with you and Corsaire. John, what have you got to lose? I played solo today and so refreshing to see the people tapping their feet and clapping. I played some new tunes (for me) and made a few mistakes and came away that much more knowledgeable.

It's true John, there is little you will gain at your point in music trying to play perfectly as written. I think that's really only for the strictest classical set anyway. I think you should plan a trip over here and we can play together, whatever songs you want. People will love it!

 

[george garside]

In the folk/trad world most play 'by ear' or perhaps just use the dots to provide a bare bones outline of a tune. As to playing a tune correctly 'as written' whose version of the dots is ''correct'' ( unless written by whoever thought up < sorry composed., the tune in the first place. Most are some individuals ''arrangement'' of somebody elses tune!

To me the key test of the ''correctness'' of a tune is
.
is it recognisable as such and such a tune.

does it sound good to those listening

an example of this was an occasion when I was asked to 'play something we can jive to'' which was way out of my normal comfort zone.. The only tune I could think of as possibly suitable was Lonne donegans putting on the style. I started of and half the people in the hall were up dancing. I watched their backsides ( instead of normal watching the feet of dancers) to get the rhythm right and then changed into ken john peel and road to the isles keeping the same jive rhythm. MOre people got up and I played to the movement of their arses '

Later I looked up the dots for putting on the style and what I had been playing was an absolute travesty of the tune aprart from the first few bars. in other words I made it up on the hoof but it nmot only did the required job - it did it well.

Maybe it was putting on the style (arrangement george garside) - Maybe not! but it did the job!

My advice to older students is don't worry about achieving note perfect perfection , play what you enjoy playing but do aim to play whatever it is with good rhythm, dynamics and phrasing (RDP) which is , to me what transforms the right notes (ish) in the right order into something ''musical'

george

 

[Corsaire]

My advice to older students is dont worry about achieving note perfect perfection , play what you enjoy playing but do aim to play whatever it is with good rhythm, dynamics and phrasing

Thats the bottom line !

George - I was about to write what you said in your first para ! Music is often handed down/passed on to people from memory rather than written down. Certainly this would be true of folk music where players may not have been able to read and write. Notes misheard, a slightly different arrangement, transposition ... and of course when a tune travels to another country, it can suffer a sea-change !

Its like your favourite Christmas pudding recipe which has been handed down over generations. I bet it isnt quite the same as the original ! But then who knows what the real original was like ?

 

[maugein96]

Having read the very helpful posts on the thread I think I need to discuss the whole issue with the "teach", as it would appear that we're possibly at odds over what we're trying to achieve. He is a very patient man, but sometimes it appears obvious to both of us that my progress is disappointing.

He's heard me playing outside of the lessons, and acknowledges that I "don't have far to go". Well, actually I have, as it's a 100 mile round trip to get the lesson. That aside, I think he's shown me what my main faults are, and I have some inkling as to how to "fix" my lazy left hand. I now know that I could manage the missing bass runs with a little bit of application, and just need to concentrate a bit more to avoid my left hand "missing" the odd beat.

I've started to revise music theory, which is part of the lesson, and I know I can also manage that myself if I so desired.

Thanks to everybody who has posted comments, as they have all given me a lot of food for a lot of thought.

 

[Stephen Hawkins]

Hi John,

The way to learn is by being with other musicians. By far the safest way to do this is to visit a Folk Club. You need not take an instrument for your first visit, as you may wish to just blend into the background for a while.

Most of the Old Folk's Homes we play in are great, and the audiences are very appreciative. We print out song sheets for communal singing, and it works a treat.

The home we played in today is not so good, as a few visitors and one or two of the staff are disrespectful. One extremely large lady insisted on talking throughout our performances. It wouldn't have been quite so bad had her voice not been similar to the cartoon character, "Foghorn Leghorn." This woman's huge voice was exceeded in size only by her bloated body. At the end of the afternoon, her husband (lucky chap) said, "See you next time." To which I replied, "Not bloody likely, mate." I think I got my point across.

Anyway, John, I think you need some exposure. Somewhere to play alongside other amateur musicians, where mistakes are laughed off, and no-one sits in judgement of what you play or how you play it.

If you lived near me, I know the perfect place. A good friend of mine runs a music workshop for the over 50's, and it is usually well attended. I have never been myself, but Dave is a cracking musician and a really decent guy.

Kind Regards,

Stephen.

 

[Robert Watters]

Hi John,
Interesting discussion as I'm 67 and just starting. I never had a teacher on any of the instruments I play badly, but with enjoyment and even occasionally have entertained others. Mainly as I was brought up in a family that couldn't afford me to have music lessons and so I relied on self tuition and other scruffy kids in a similar position to swap tips.
Still fairly skint but managing to keep my hobby going.
Good tips from the other members. Keep going! YouTube is good , especially if you understand even a little French.
Definitely find other amateur musicians. They don't have to play the box, just like some of the music you do.
I live in Norfolk which seems to be a folk music desert (I'll get trolled now!) but am beginning to find a couple of like minded players of other instruments after being here 36 years.

Best wishes
Robert

 

[maugein96]

Hi Robert,

Part of my problem is I blow hot and cold with the accordion, as I also play various other instruments, mainly electric guitar. I can rarely give equal attention to both, and quite often one gets mothballed in favour of the other. I've been playing musical instruments since I was about 7 years old, and realised very early on in life what stage fright was.

By the time I began to play the accordion I was still young enough (about 32) to believe I could possibly break out of my shell and make a serious go of it on a "new" instrument, but at various times I lost the "bug" and packed it in. In my early 40s I was involved in a serious car accident, and temporarily lost the use of the third and fourth fingers of my right hand. It took me about three years to be able to use them again, and by that time I had lost the will to try playing. I had achieved a fair bit before that, and knew I'd never be able to play like I once did. After the accident I put all my musical effort into playing guitar, and had decided the accordion was going to be a tall order. I had also suffered a fractured sternum and 7 broken ribs, and playing tended to be a bit of an ordeal until I broke through the pain barrier.

However, friends and family encouraged me to try and re-learn the box, and I bought one with part of my compensation I received from the accident. I had to start from page 1 lesson 1 again with my right hand fingers and that isn't easy. However, by the judicious use of kiddies' playdough I got the fingers moving again, although they still do occasionally have minds of their own, usually at a crucial part in a tune!

My latest foray into lessons is probably a final attempt at staying the pace with the box, and I've now reached the stage where playing with other musicians and/or before audiences is no longer very important to me.

I've learned a lot from You Tube. I often have problems with the fingering used in the videos, as my hand just doesn't work the way it used to, but the good thing with CBA is there is usually more than one way to get by. I have no feeling at all across part of the back of my right hand, but I can feel the fingers OK , and there is still strength in them. It's a bit of a strange feeling, but at least I can play again.

At various times I did associate with fellow amateur players who shared my interests, but they are no longer able to play, as their current state means they are lying down all the time, or their ashes have simply blown away.

I'm thinking of going to Optimism classes, but am frightened that something bad will happen on the way!

I'll keep the lessons going until I reckon I've reached the point where I feel I cannot help the teacher with his playing any more. He's only been playing CBA for 8 years, being a convert from PA, and I think he finds my fingering "interesting".