Musette or not?

[maugein96]

I know this subject has been turned over and over and much debate has arisen etc, etc, etc.

Here is a link to three clips of a French Maugein accordion being played. One clip features all three MMM reeds together (Apelouse), one features the flat tuned M and straight tuned M (Couramiaude), and the other gives the straight tuned M along with the sharp tuned M (Cantonaise).

I appreciate that the pieces being played are not the same, but does anybody have the ear to truthfully claim they can tell the difference? Mercifully, they dont give a sample of the flat tuned M along with the Sharp M.

https://www.mon-accordeon.com/neuf/maugein-festibal-trio

(You need to scroll down to the bottom left to play the clips, which are from the French mon-accordeon site. The box is a Maugein Festibal Trio with musette accentue tuning, which is up around 20 cents).

Depending on the nature of any comments received I think Ill need to sell one of my boxes to buy hearing aids.

 

[Blanik]

If you get a line on cheap hearing aids, I could do with a pair as well 'cos I could not discern any difference either.

 

[maugein96]

Hi Blanik,

Thanks for the reply.

I was born in Scotland, but 10 out of 16 of my great grandparents were from Ulster, and my mother was Irish. Maybe it's our Irish ears that are defective.

If you read the captions relating to the clips you tend to convince yourself that you can hear the difference, but the reality is the average person would probably have no chance, especially if they never had much experience of listening to accordions.

John McGarrigle, a relative of ours from County Donegal, used to play a big Hohner box with so called Irish musette tuning. There was no way I could tell the difference between the tuning of John's box and Scottish musette tuning. There probably was a difference, but only those endowed with very acute hearing would have been able to tell what it was.

I'll see what's the best deal on those hearing aids! If we end up as a separate entity after Brexit and they're cheaper on your side I'll just use my Irish passport to come over and get them, and give my relatives' address in Donegal. If Scotland gets independence from the UK I'll have to work out whether three passports will fit into my pockets or not!

 

[Blanik]

I agree with your views and had a good laugh in the mean time.

There is a tuning that I call "French", (I play the Roland FR8X), but I would not put a bet on it. I tend to get a liking for a particular sound and don't bother much with calling it a name.

I agree that the Irish and Scottish sounds are very similar. I think it is more in the style of playing that makes for a different sound ?? I just loved the Jimmy Shand sound and if I copied his style, listeners would comment on my Scottish tuning !!

Good luck with all your passports !

 

[maugein96]

In Scotland most players believe that Scottish musette fits all styles, and it probably does if you are used to it. The older Irish tuning was near enough identical, but I haven't really kept up with the times. Most Irish accordion music these days tends to be played with swing tuning, or so it would appear.

Jimmy Shand was obviously the big legend here and many players were influenced by him and others like him. A few of the lesser known players who played British Chromatics were also household names in Scotland. I don't know very much about Scottish accordion music at all, and just couldn't take to it at a time when most youngsters wanted to be in pop or rock bands.

By the time I got round to playing the box I was an old man of 32, and Jimmy Shand was unfortunately decidedly "uncool" by then. Most Scottish players by that time (1985) had cranked the tempo up a bit, but I always preferred the sound of Irish players on wet tuned accordions, who always seemed to play at a faster pace than they did here.

Having bounced out of various fourth rate rock bands I just couldn't play at that Shand tempo, and decided to go for French musette, where I reckoned a polka would be over and done with before Jimmy had finished playing one of those big long intro chords that feature in Scottish box music. I have also heard it happen in Irish music, but not very often. I had an old uncle from Donegal who said they played intro and exit chords in Scotland to remind people to leave the whiskey tumblers on the tables while they were dancing! I suppose where dancers are involved it is the cue that a tune is about to begin or has ended, but I much prefer the melodic intros and arpeggio type endings used by French and Italian players.

Turns out I'd have been better sticking with the mouth organ I played when I was a kid, as 32 was just too late for me to have retained that youthful type of enthusiasm you need to succeed with something as complicated as the box.

I still take lessons to correct the errors of self tuition, but since one of the cats died my audience has halved. My wife cannot abide the sound of anybody's accordion, especially mine!

I don't really know how many different types of musette there are or what they're called. Suffice to say I used to think that all accordions should be musette tuned, but I now regard musette tuned accordions as an aid to fitness in my old age. If I end up anywhere near one I run a mile!

 

[Blanik]

I never heard of the long intro's being there to "to remind people to leave the Whiskey tumblers on the tables". That's a new one for me. I always had it that the intro was to get the dancers settled and ready for the "off". ("You should be over here --- no don't hold her hand yet ---- it should be boy girl boy girl --- we need another boy --- etc., etc.")

Just to clarify about the FR8X ----- It is a Digital or Virtual Accordion. Not a reed in sight !! -- but like computers, there is much more available in it than the average person would use. With the press of a button I can imitate nearly all the accordion sounds of the World. It also has nearly 200 orchestral sounds which can be selected.
If you would like to hear this Virtual accordion in action, there is an excellent player on You Tube called Richard Noel and he is well worth listening to. A far better option than going to my You Tube site.

Sorry to hear that half your audience let you down by dying. My own cat, when she was alive, used disappear when I would strike up.
I am lucky in that I attached myself to Social Clubs and Charity events. So a lot of people would have to die before I would lose my audience. But then I have been playing accordion since I was 18 --- some 62 years ago. At that time Jimmy Shand was tops and our own Dermot O'Brien was doing the Cinema Queues, with the little money bag attached to the top of his accordion.

I was taught formally and reached the dizzy heights of Higher Intermediate standard. I stopped just short of gaining Teacher standard, but then much like the "One Eyed man being King in the land of the blind", I did succeed in acquiring teaching positions because there were not many box players of my standard around at the time, and 3 or 4 piece "Combos" were the rage at Wedding and parties etc.. My instrument at the time was a Galanti Piano accordion, with hand made reeds, and I would have a Drummer and Clarinet and/or Trumpet player join me to complete the "Combo".

Regarding the Musette tuning. I have discovered that 99% of one's audience just likes what they likes, and are not very discerning. So I use the sounds that I think fits the tune I am playing. By and large, those sounds are very acceptable. Occasionally, the 1% will approach me after a performance and question my selection of sound for a particular tune, but that's OK 'cos it leads to an interesting conversation.

I love your "keep fit" exercise. Maybe you should think of patenting it ?
I can see it now, ---- you standing at one end of the street and when you strike up a Musette song, hoards of people go charging down the street away from you, getting fit at the same time.

 

[maugein96]

:lol:

Dermot O'Brien was possibly the best known Irish accordionist ever, and was very popular in our part of Scotland. I don't think I ever actually met John McGarrigle. He was related to somebody through marriage as they say, so his records were well played in our house. The "whiskey tumblers on the tables" was a joke. We were at a family celebration and had been listening to some Irish records. Somebody put a Scottish accordion LP on, and my Uncle Willie Duffy from Redcastle enquired as to why Scottish accordionists played the big chords at the beginning and end of each tune. As the night went on one or two of the Scottish contingent were visibly the worse for wear, and one of them fell over whilst dancing and spilled his drink. Willie then declared he had worked out why Scottish accordionists played the big chords, and everybody who was still sober enough to understand what he had said had a good laugh.

Over here, if your repertoire wasn't focused on Scottish material you weren't likely to get a hearing at all, which is understandable. I therefore retreated into my own little accordion world, where I've remained ever since. Our remaining cat will sometimes jump onto my shoulder, perch on the treble side, and try to catch the bellows as I'm pulling them out. I then have to stop playing and get him out of the room, as he's a big heavy beast and is doing my accordion no good at all. He's fearless and his other hobby is chasing the local dogs, which are terrified of him.

It would seem that most pro Scottish players began playing fairly young, before they were old enough to care what was fashionable and what wasn't, and just got on with the job of learning and playing without too many hang ups. I had spent 20 years dabbling with electric guitars before I decided I'd like to try the box, and it turned out to be too late for me at that age. I know some people don't start to play until they're 104, but I wouldn't have the enthusiasm now never mind at that age.

I've often wondered about a Roland. The guy I take lessons from has been playing for over 50 years and plays everything from melodions, PA, and CBA, as well as piano and bass guitar. He tells me that the PA version of the Roland is OK, but he doesn't like the treble keyboard on the CBA versions. I mentioned I had been considering buying one, but he advised me that the treble action on the French boxes I have would cause me to regret it. Setting up all the different options seems to be a major issue for some, and I have a digital guitar amp in the house rotting away as I've never been able to work out how to use it. I fear I'd have the same bother with a digital accordion, but I might try it some day.

 

[Corsaire]

.... too late for me at that age. I know some people dont start to play until theyre 104, but I wouldnt have the enthusiasm now never mind at that age.

Hmmmm, when is too late ?? I reckon were pretty much the same age ad Im itching to try something new - the diatonic !
I think it makes a difference that the diatonic is the box in Brittany, closely followed by the CBA. PA players like me are a rarity (must preserve us :lol: ).
Ive chosen the diatonic over the CBA because theyre incredibly light, will be like learning a new instrument with the pull-push, and also because I will find it much easier to find people to play with, groups to join etc. I did play with a really nice group during the summer - and was surprised to hear them playing OCarolan tunes. I havent played them for years but they came back after a fashion.

So motivation is the key,. and its much harder to get motivated on your own with no particular goal.

I had a go on a Roland PA a while back and it was scary. Everything was so different, including the bellows, and it was very heavy.

 

[donn]

I suppose the question is whether one can hear a characteristic difference between the two two-reed musettes, and naturally that's a hard one to say for sure with just snatches of two fairly different tunes as examples. (And of course it depends on how the bass reeds are tuned - I have to assume they're tuned strictly to the juste standard, but it's all out the window if the two accordions are different there.)

Anyway, to me, the flute haute results in a more appealing sound, more lively and in tune. The other is of course practically the same, but I guess I must hear pitch in the lower reed, because this sounds a bit flat to me. Accidentally perhaps the second tune lands on a note or two where the tuning is a little too much, and that happens less in the first tune, but overall they both work fairly well for me - I'd play that accordion.

The two three-voice tunes are the same tuning, apparently? I wouldn't give up on three-voice musette just on the basis of this example, but it seems to me possible that a good tuning for two voices, is too far out for three, the upper and lower being twice as far apart (as in the mercifully omitted flat & sharp combination.) A tune with any sustained notes would suffer badly here.

 

[maugein96]

.... too late for me at that age. I know some people dont start to play until theyre 104, but I wouldnt have the enthusiasm now never mind at that age.

Hmmmm, when is too late ?? I reckon were pretty much the same age ad Im itching to try something new - the diatonic !
I think it makes a difference that the diatonic is the box in Brittany, closely followed by the CBA. PA players like me are a rarity (must preserve us :lol: ).
Ive chosen the diatonic over the CBA because theyre incredibly light, will be like learning a new instrument with the pull-push, and also because I will find it much easier to find people to play with, groups to join etc. I did play with a really nice group during the summer - and was surprised to hear them playing OCarolan tunes. I havent played them for years but they came back after a fashion.

So motivation is the key,. and its much harder to get motivated on your own with no particular goal.

I had a go on a Roland PA a while back and it was scary. Everything was so different, including the bellows, and it was very heavy.

Sally,

The fact that you already play an accordion and associate with others who play diatonics means youre off to a flyer, and your age probably wont make as much difference as it would to those taking up an accordion of any type for the first time.

By 32 I had played a handful of instruments that were only capable of producing a single note at a time. When suddenly faced with a full sized accordion I felt like a one man band with an arm and a leg missing. It is a whole lot of things to learn at the same time, especially if you havent got a teacher. All I did was rush through the melodies and got fairly proficient at those in a relatively short space of time. However, right hand chords, and bass runs were for other people, as I just couldnt discipline myself to learn them properly. My right hand chords came eventually, but were formed like a jazz guitarist, maybe only making do with two or three notes at a time. Reading chords to me was like reading nuclear science theory as a 6 year old.

Then there were the bellows. All we self taught types end up running out of arm at the wrong time, and we need to learn how to avoid that. To say any part of it other than melodic lines came naturally would be a lie. Had I started out early it would certainly have been easier for me, although we are all different (I think).

If you are influenced and encouraged by other local musicians then youll get on fine, as youve already decided you want to do it. If you still lived in Scotland and decided to start on diatonic then I think my opinion would be different. If they put all the still extant diatonic boxes end to end here, a Smart car would be longer than the whole string.

Way back in the 60s I told the school I wanted to play bassoon in the school orchestra, as my music teacher said it was a popular orchestral instrument. My request was denied on the basis that the teacher should have said it was once a popular orchestral instrument. Youre lucky to live in an area where ancient musical instruments are still played. 55 years later Ive never yet met anybody who plays the bassoon, or who has even seen one!

 

[Corsaire]

As I mentioned on the Italian topic, we lived for 18 years in the Loire Valley and after a couple of years, I lost enthusiasm as there was zero interest in the accordion. And that was despite having a superb accordion workshop in Saumur. People came from far and wide for repairs. I had my lessons with Michael Richard in a tiny little backroom behind his tiny workshop cum 'reception' area.

This area is far better though the further west you go, the better. Whilst there are some good on-line tutorials, I would definitely opt for lessons to start with.

I won't be giving up the PA though .......
I regret not learning the fiddle when I was younger - now that would be a challenge now :lol:

 

[maugein96]

Donn,

I actually gave up on three voice musette over 20 years ago, as I was never able to find an instrument so tuned that I actually like the sound of. I do appreciate three voice musette, just so long as it isnt too wide, and from time to time I sometimes wonder what they sound like these days.

I came across the advert for that Maugein, and decided to listen to the sound samples, which I admit do not really offer much scope for comparison. The high flute can just about be discerned over the low one, but the captions tell us they are so. Id challenge anybody to walk into a room cold, and immediately identify what reed combination was being used on that particular accordion. As far as Im aware the clips actually feature two accordions, one MMM, and one LMM, but the ones I highlighted appear to refer to the same MMM box.

After listening to those clips I had formed the opinion that, provided the two MM reeds were tuned sufficiently wide, they could pass for musette tuning, on the basis that I couldnt detect any real difference between MM and MMM on that particular instrument. My own preference is for a light americain of about 7 cents apart, and that wouldnt sound anywhere near to three voice musette.

The French have turned the tuning of LMM accordions into a fine art, from unisson two straight tuned MM reeds, right up to musette accentué, which can be as wide as 24 cents on those two reeds. The question has to be Do we actually need three M reeds when possibly two will suffice? There may be an argument for flat tuned reeds balancing out the sharp tuned ones, but that is beyond my knowledge or experience.

Check out the sound clip of the Maugein Mini Sonora Segurel in this link. Round about 0.59 a sound that I was convinced had to be three voice musette kicks in, but it cannot be so, as that box is LMM, so what we are hearing is just two MM reeds. Confused? I still am.

https://www.accordeons-maugein.com/en/galerie-de-sons/

(scroll down to the red accordion with black buttons)

 

[maugein96]

As I mentioned on the Italian topic, we lived for 18 years in the Loire Valley and after a couple of years, I lost enthusiasm as there was zero interest in the accordion. And that was despite having a superb accordion workshop in Saumur. People came from far and wide for repairs. I had my lessons with Michael Richard in a tiny little backroom behind his tiny workshop cum reception area.

This area is far better though the further west you go, the better. Whilst there are some good on-line tutorials, I would definitely opt for lessons to start with.

I wont be giving up the PA though .......
I regret not learning the fiddle when I was younger - now that would be a challenge now :lol:

Sally,

It would certainly appear to be the case that the accordion is present in some regions in France, but totally absent in others. I do believe that is also the case in Scotland, but as Ive never really taken to the music then I wouldnt know. What I can say is that Ive never seen an accordion in a music shop window anywhere in the UK for over 20 years. I know such shops do exist, but even then they dont tend to have any CBAs that would suit my requirements.

Were now dependent on word of mouth, viewing by appointment and online buying if were really desperate.

When I worked on the Glasgow Corporation Transport buses, one or two of the conductors were excellent on the fiddle, but most of them were caught!

 

[Corsaire]

I have visited two accordion shops in the UK - one in Sunningdale where I bought my Excelsior over 20 years ago and the other in Southampton, Hobgoblin, where I bought my secondhand Delicia. Both pleasant experiences with people who knew what they were talking about. They have other branches in England.

Out of the big cities, accordion shops aren't two a penny in France but we're not badly served in Brittany - there 3 or 4 within an hour and a half's drive from here.

But a shop may not have what you want, if you're set one a particular make/model so how do you try it out ?

 

[Alan Sharkis]

My acoustic is LMMM so I have access to all combinations of the MMM reeds, INCLUDING the sharp and flat. If I want to be super-technical. I'd say that the difference in musette sounds kind of depends on the degree of detuning.

As far as my own ears go (and yes, I do use hearing aids and they're not cheap) it really doesn't make much of a difference. I can interchange them to play songs of various cultures and nobody tells me it's the wrong musette for the song.

My Roland FR-4x can do just about what a Roland FR-8x can do with regard to different musettes, although not as conveniently. So, when I play it, I just grab the most convenient musette and it works just fine.

Alan Sharkis

 

[donn]

Check out the sound clip of the Maugein Mini Sonora Segurel in this link. Round about 0.59 a sound that I was convinced had to be three voice musette kicks in, but it cannot be so, as that box is LMM, so what we are hearing is just two MM reeds. Confused? I still am.

https://www.accordeons-maugein.com/en/galerie-de-sons/

(scroll down to the red accordion with black buttons)

Its sure not like the three-voice recordings for the Festibal Trio.

I cant say Im really hearing 3 different pitches in the Festibal tunes, its more like theres a sort of static or centered quality to the musette. Where two voices makes a clearer dissonance that leans out from the center - so it can sound more flamboyant or acute in a way, than the three-voiced which kind of cancels out its disharmonies. Or something like that.

 

[maugein96]

Hi Donn,

The Festibal was probably a bad example for comparison. Basically, it's taken me over 30 years to realise that some of the musette I've been moaning about as being too wet, was actually very wide tuned two voice MM, and I couldn't tell the difference.

There are three offerings of the Maugein Mini Sonora accordion, and I own one of them.

That Segurel Mini Sonora box was made to the specification of the Auvergnat folk hero, Jean Segurel. It is LMM with the two MM reeds tuned very wide, and that also affects the sound of the master LMM.

Normal Mini Sonora which I have is LMM but my MM reeds are only 8 cents apart so the master sounds different from the Segurel box.

To confuse the whole issue they also offer the MIni Sonora as a completely straight tuned LMH, and all versions have the bassoon reeds only in a tone chamber. The LMH version is by special order only.

The big 4 and 5 voice Cavagnolos have up to 10 different register combinations. Some of them have double bassoon reeds, with one set in the tone chamber and one out. I listened to a demo of one and reckoned I could only pick out about 4 of the 10 combinations. I dare say each combination has its uses, perhaps in the recording studio, but for ordinary guys like me that's a lot of extra weight and cash just for 6 extra registers that I'd probably never have any use for.

My Cavagnolo Vedette 5 has 3 double function treble couplers that give 6 possible register combinations, and my wife's favourite one is the highest lever in the up position, which switches all the treble reeds off!

 

[maugein96]

My acoustic is LMMM so I have access to all combinations of the MMM reeds, INCLUDING the sharp and flat. If I want to be super-technical. Id say that the difference in musette sounds kind of depends on the degree of detuning.

As far as my own ears go (and yes, I do use hearing aids and theyre not cheap) it really doesnt make much of a difference. I can interchange them to play songs of various cultures and nobody tells me its the wrong musette for the song.

My Roland FR-4x can do just about what a Roland FR-8x can do with regard to different musettes, although not as conveniently. So, when I play it, I just grab the most convenient musette and it works just fine.

Alan Sharkis

Alan,

I think what Ive just discovered is that as long as the box sounds OK, it doesnt really matter what the register is actually called. Musette tuning is definitely not an exact science. Ive mentioned this before, but I once picked up three identical accordions from a shelf that were all brand new, and they all sounded different from each other.

 

[Corsaire]

I wonder if our preference for different registers has any connection with age and our ability to hear, or not hear so well, higher or lower pitch ? Does our hearing range change or reduce ? I'm sure it does and perhaps that influences what sound w like to hear.

 

[maugein96]

Sally,

A year or two back I was concerned that I may have a degree of tone deafness, and being the skinflint I am I decided to undergo a few free online tests. The test consists of comparing the tone difference between two sounds, and you have to state, higher, lower, or the same, relating to the pitch of the second sound. Depending on your age, you cannot hear the higher pitches at all, and I had to start about a third of the way through the test, as I just couldn't hear the pitches at the beginning. My hearing is OK. I'm not tone deaf, and I don't need hearing aids, and my inability to pick up the higher tones was normal for my age.

So, you are perfectly correct that your perception of pitch change diminishes with age, and some of us will obviously lose it quicker than others. I think I'm one of many who liked wide tuned musette in my younger days, but now cannot put up with it for long, and I do believe it is to do with my hearing becoming less able to hear three treble reeds all vibrating at the same time. Add 5 bass voices to that and your ears are having to deal with 8 different sounds from the same instrument. In the case of a Scottish tuned LMMM in window smashing master mode, you can make that 9 sounds (or 10 if you count the sound of the windows breaking).

It should be the case that your ears should become less sensitive to wide pitch variations as you age, but I don't know enough about how it all works. The fact that I cannot tell a wide tuned MM from a wide tuned MMM means nothing at all, as I'm now not really sure if I could discern such a difference even 30 years ago.

Some people must just grow accustomed to very strong musette, but maybe my ears are over sensitive, as I don't like it at all. I know there are other members on here with the same issue. I never play a radio in the car as I like to hear the sound of the engine so that I know when to change gear. A legacy from my bus driving days perhaps.

If I've worked it out correctly (I seldom do), then what would have been three distinct reed sounds when I was 20, has gradually turned into just a "noise", that isn't pleasant to listen to. The stronger the musette the greater difficulty my ears have separating the three different reed sounds. No doubt there could be a medical and/or technical explanation for it all, but all I know is I could no longer go back to playing an accordion with wide tuned musette. If I'm playing guitar along with another stringed instrument and one of us is slightly out of tune with the other then it's game over (for me) until we synch the tuning. I tend to learn tunes by ear and if the track concerned is not in tune with my box then I usually cannot work the tune out by ear. With guitar I'd just tune it up or down to match the recording. If they ever made an accordion with that facility I might be interested.