Moving from B/C to G/C button accordian.....

[billyboy]

Hi - i'm a beginner and currently have a B/C Saltarelle Nuage. i am thinking of getting a G/C button accordian, probably a 3 row, but on looking at right hand layouts, there's quite a bit of variety in the button/note layouts. i've been looking at the layouts on forum.melodeon.net and maker websites (like Castagnari).

What are the things i should consider in choosing a right hand layout? My current focus is on waltzes, mazurkas.

any hints or tips would be much appreciated.

thanks - Bill

 

[OuijaBoard]

Mnet is probably your best bet for this one----See if there's anything helpful in this melodeon.net thread--They really get into the weeds here Re different layouts.

G/C/Acc Layout

G/C/Acc Layout

forum.melodeon.net

As one who put in some serious time with semi tone bisonoric box but has been centered on CBA and PA for over a decade, I'm fascinated and curious to observe what seems to be increased interest in/preference for "quint" bisonoric systems such as G/D or G/C in recent years. Not sure what's driving the trend, but it's interesting. Best of luck!

 

[SteveBox]

Hi Bill,

I don't play a diatonic, although I have studied the various systems. A Saltarelle Nuage is a fairly high-end diatonic. If you are a beginner, as you say, then it sounds like you decided to start out with a high-quality (expensive) instrument. That's fine. Are you looking to switch systems already, or to just learn another one? If the latter, don't spread yourself too thin before you master the first system.

A G/C would, by definition, be a two row. A G/C/F would be an example of a three row. Moving from an Irish semitone-tuned B/C to a quint-tuned G/C or G/C/F would be a change in playing style. The Irish boxes are played primarily "across the rows" - you use both rows for most Irish tunes, which tend to be in the keys of G, D, and A, and relative minors (and rarely in the keys of B or C). With quint-tuned boxes, one mostly plays "on the row" - you mostly use only the one row that is tuned to the key you want to play in. However, you can certainly play your current B/C box "on the row" by playing tunes in the key of B or C. You don't need another box to try out this playing style and see how you like it.

I think any accordion would be suitable for waltzes and mazurkas, even the B/C. Your choice of keys for a quint-tuned box, if you get one, depends on what keys you want to play in. There are regional preferences. British Isles musicians usually prefer a D/G or an A/D/G. I understand that in France and some other countries, G/C is more popular.

I think most of the participants on this forum play chromatic accordions. For advice about diatonics, the melodeon.net forum might be a better place to ask your questions.

Good luck.

 

[billyboy]

Hi - thanks s much for all the info. lots to read and re-read.

I am a long time irish anglo concertina player and picking up the button accordian pretty quickly. i got the Saltarelle B/C as it seemed a good one for irish trad music. However in learning to play the Nuage, i'm now less interested in irish trad on it and more lured by all the wonderful other 'world' music. I was looking into a G/C as it seem a common tuning for many waltzes & mazurkas. on the Nuage, i am running into lots of push/pull/push/pull on every other note making it sound jaggedy. I've tried changing the key of the tunes with limited results.

My Nuage has 2 row treble and 12 bass buttons and i am thinking of 18 bass buttons, and maybe 3 row treble. I do like the sound of Castagnari boxes (at least what i hear on youtube) so am looking into those. and i don't mind spending some money to get a great sounding box.

Also, i am not exactly sure what is meant by 'semi tone bisonoric' or 'quint-tuned'.

Bill

 

[dunlustin]

B/C = semi tone bisonoric or rows a semitone apart, bisonoric = different note on push and pull - very often called diatonic
G/C =quint-tuned or rows a Fifth apart (C D E F G =Vth) Could also be called 4th apart if counting the other way.
You could say your Anglo is Quint tuned but nobody does afaik.

The prevalence of D/G boxes in UK is pretty much an accident of history.
The clever thing about G/C (or D/G etc) layout is that across the rows there 's lots of choice to avoid changing direction.
3-row (eg GCF) tend to be less 'nimble' than 2-rows. The G/C Acc as mentioned earlier is more flexible.
The tendency to play up and down just one row is much less common than it used to be.
Mainland Europe has a lot of tunes in Aminor - if you look at the G/C layout you will see almost the whole octave is available on the pul.
What you might aim for:



(Written 30 years before this on a modest Hohner G/C 2-row)

B/C boxes (+ C/C#etc) are not much used now outside of ITM.
That said, the history's there - look for recordings from early 20th C by the (Scots) Wyper Bros.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Hi - thanks s much for all the info. lots to read and re-read.

I am a long time irish anglo concertina player and picking up the button accordian pretty quickly. i got the Saltarelle B/C as it seemed a good one for irish trad music. However in learning to play the Nuage, i'm now less interested in irish trad on it and more lured by all the wonderful other 'world' music. I was looking into a G/C as it seem a common tuning for many waltzes & mazurkas. on the Nuage, i am running into lots of push/pull/push/pull on every other note making it sound jaggedy. I've tried changing the key of the tunes with limited results.

My Nuage has 2 row treble and 12 bass buttons and i am thinking of 18 bass buttons, and maybe 3 row treble. I do like the sound of Castagnari boxes (at least what i hear on youtube) so am looking into those. and i don't mind spending some money to get a great sounding box.

Also, i am not exactly sure what is meant by 'semi tone bisonoric' or 'quint-tuned'.

Bill

Hi,

"Semitone" boxes just means the rows are 2 major 8-note scales, a semi tone or half-step apart from each other. It is largely the Irish and sometimes Scottish traditions that use them. B/C, C#/D, D/D#, C/C#, etc.

"Quint" boxes means the rows are major scales a fifth apart from each other. A 30-button C/G Anglo concertina is two "quint" rows with a third row to furnish the accidentals missing from the C and G scales.

On "quint" button accordions such as G/C, missing accidentals sometimes are on a third row, other times tacked on at the far ends of the main rows. If you went over the mnet thread I linked, I'm sure you saw there is quite an array of available permutations, especially from Castagnari!

It's funny you've found B/C super "back and forth," because people who switch from B/C to a quint box often do so to get more "back and forth" sound and fingering. On B/C, the keys of C, F, and their relative minors finger and sound "back and forth" playing on the C row like a one-row C melodeon. But on B/C, keys such as D, A, E, G, and their relative minors finger and sound less "back and forth" and more smooth and flowing.

Why? Because on a B/C semi tone box, these keys fall more "between the rows," rather than along one row, giving longer runs of notes before you need to switch directions. That is also because those keys feature B/C's two "magic notes," that occur twice--once on the push and once on the pull. On B/C those notes are B and E. Adept players choose which they will use in a given phrase to get a longer phrase in one direction versus a choppier, more "back and forth" sound. On a B/C keys like A might sound almost as smooth as on a PA due to playing mostly on the pull--you do need to get good coordinating with that air button!!

If B/C is super "push-pull" for you in D, A, G, E, and their relative minors, could be you're not yet adept at playing "across the rows" using your "magic notes" strategically.

I'm not laying this out to talk you into B/C, just to make you aware--Quebecois and other folk players like the quint boxes for more "push-pull," not less. Sure, A few keys on a 3-row quint could be played super-smooth "across the rows" working that air button. But that's not usually why folk players use the quint systems.

 

[billyboy]

again, much thanks for the quick replies.

i wouldn't call it 'super' back and forth just more than i would like. eg: the tune Pellan by Florence Pindivic. I tried in Dm, then Em, both still seem choppy.

another seeming limitation of my B/C is that on the right hand, i can not play certain partial chords, eg: F# and A, G and D, etc. I am thinking a 3 row would help with that.

yes - there are lots of permutations of treble layouts.

also, it does seem like people have BA's in a variety of keys, i.e. they have multiple boxes in different keys.

the video link of 'Dimanche Matin' is very nice. is there sheet music somewhere?

 

[dunlustin]

If you like music from Diouflo, looks like you're after a decent G/C 2-row.

They have some great stuff on their site:

DIOU FLO - Vidéos et MP3 (Diato)

FWIW, I'd go for a 2-row with the most standard layout. After a while you will know what you want to explore further. At that point you should be better able to make a wise choice for the next step.
Oh and yes you're right, like pints of beer, diatonic accordions are (minimum) usually seen in pairs.

PS Dimanche Matin:

https://www.ggms.nl/GC/pdf/dimanche%20matin%20c%201%20pag.pdf

 

[tcabot]

Since I just very recently got myself a quart (quint?) box (and loving it!), I've been looking into various layouts.

Essentially, from what I gathered so far, you have your minimalist 2-row 8-bass "standard" box. There might be small variations (gleischton, Dutch reversal, 3-button vs 4-button start, Anahata) but essentially it's still the same 2-row instrument that requires a fair bit of push-pull action.

Once you start adding voices, register switches, more basses, more notes, the box size & weight increases, which makes nimble push-pull difficult or impossible. To counter this, there is a huge variety of 2.5 systems with extra row of buttons for reversal (to replace bellows reversals with cross-row fingerings. Remaining reed "slots" are filled with accidentals to give you more notes and allow you to play in other keys (assuming your bass side can cope with it). You can also move into a "real" 3-row (then 4- row & 5-row) steirische harmonika, but it does a similar thing as the 2.5 instrument: expands the options for reversals and other keys, just does it differently by adding an extra quart row instead of a random-looking selection of buttons.
Unless you go for the minimalist 2x8, the choice of the system and basses seems to depend entirely on what you want to play vs what you are able to buy.
It's a bit of a bugger if you ask me, as to get a feel for the instrument and figure out your target repertoire, you need to get some proficiency on one system...Just to have to re-learn if you decide to switch in the future.
Or just stick to the surprisingly capable 2x8.

Having said that, if you already play the accordion, the bigger 2.5 and 3-4 row boxes have a very similar bellows action feel to them. Playing smaller instruments, I believe, is different in that you'd use more of your arm movement and less of your back & shoulders.

 

[SteveBox]

i wouldn't call it 'super' back and forth just more than i would like. eg: the tune Pellan by Florence Pindivic. I tried in Dm, then Em, both still seem choppy.

another seeming limitation of my B/C is that on the right hand, i can not play certain partial chords, eg: F# and A, G and D, etc. I am thinking a 3 row would help with that.

Bill,

I don't want to talk you out of choosing one of the diatonic systems. I think they are cool. However, the limitations that you express causes me to think you might want to consider a small melodeon-sized chromatic button accordion (CBA). Most people probably don't know this is an option. They are no larger or heavier than a three-row diatonic. You can play in any key, with no inherent limitations on combinations of notes you can play, and you are never forced into a choppy bellows reversal, other than reaching the end of the travel. The fingering and playing style is different, of course, and so it would take a few years to master. If you are already far down the diatonic path, you may not want to start over. Also, some might prefer the "diatonic sound" you get from the frequent bellows reversals. BTW, my observation is that diatonic playing becomes less choppy sounding after much practice and experience.

I had been playing one of the larger CBAs (the 60-bass Castagnari in my profile photo), but a few years ago had been contemplating taking up the Irish-style diatonic to have a small instrument for trad sessions. Then I discovered these small chromatic accordions. To get the small size and weight, they replace the 60-120 button Stradella system common on larger accordions with the smaller Darwin 24-bass open chord system. The Darwin system is fully chromatic, and is even becoming popular on diatonic accordions, because it eliminates the restrictions of the diatonic bass.

To my knowledge, these are currently only being made by a few small French accordion makers. Here is the one I have:

GRAET E BREIZH, 24 basses

C’est un modèle polyvalent, qui peut aussi bien être chromatique que diatonique. En effet, bien qu’il soit le plus souvent proposé en chromatique, il est possible de le fabriquer en système mixte (main droite diatonique, et main gauche chromatique) ou bien complètement diatonique.

www.atelierloffet.com

Though I would mention this, in the interest of you being fully informed as to what choices are out there. There are so many accordion systems! Good luck with your decision.

 

[OuijaBoard]

again, much thanks for the quick replies.

i wouldn't call it 'super' back and forth just more than i would like. eg: the tune Pellan by Florence Pindivic. I tried in Dm, then Em, both still seem choppy.

another seeming limitation of my B/C is that on the right hand, i can not play certain partial chords, eg: F# and A, G and D, etc. I am thinking a 3 row would help with that.

yes - there are lots of permutations of treble layouts.

also, it does seem like people have BA's in a variety of keys, i.e. they have multiple boxes in different keys.

the video link of 'Dimanche Matin' is very nice. is there sheet music s

Bill,

I don't want to talk you out of choosing one of the diatonic systems. I think they are cool. However, the limitations that you express causes me to think you might want to consider a small melodeon-sized chromatic button accordion (CBA). Most people probably don't know this is an option. They are no larger or heavier than a three-row diatonic. You can play in any key, with no inherent limitations on combinations of notes you can play, and you are never forced into a choppy bellows reversal, other than reaching the end of the travel. The fingering and playing style is different, of course, and so it would take a few years to master. If you are already far down the diatonic path, you may not want to start over. Also, some might prefer the "diatonic sound" you get from the frequent bellows reversals. BTW, my observation is that diatonic playing becomes less choppy sounding after much practice and experience.

I had been playing one of the larger CBAs (the 60-bass Castagnari in my profile photo), but a few years ago had been contemplating taking up the Irish-style diatonic to have a small instrument for trad sessions. Then I discovered these small chromatic accordions. To get the small size and weight, they replace the 60-120 button Stradella system common on larger accordions with the smaller Darwin 24-bass open chord system. The Darwin system is fully chromatic, and is even becoming popular on diatonic accordions, because it eliminates the restrictions of the diatonic bass.

To my knowledge, these are currently only being made by a few small French accordion makers. Here is the one I have:

GRAET E BREIZH, 24 basses

C’est un modèle polyvalent, qui peut aussi bien être chromatique que diatonique. En effet, bien qu’il soit le plus souvent proposé en chromatique, il est possible de le fabriquer en système mixte (main droite diatonique, et main gauche chromatique) ou bien complètement diatonique.

www.atelierloffet.com

Though I would mention this, in the interest of you being fully informed as to what choices are out there. There are so many accordion systems! Good luck with your decision.

]]]I don't want to talk you out of choosing one of the diatonic systems. I think they are cool. However, the limitations that you express causes me to think you might want to consider a small melodeon-sized chromatic button accordion (CBA).[[[

Ha, I didn't get into my own status since I wanted to respond to the OP's questions, but . . . This was my evolution, though I played PA before my bisonoric period. But I've come full circle and now play any folk/trad I want on small CBAs and PAs. Don't think I need the Darwin system, as small 60 and 48 bass boxes are working out dandy for my uses, but I'm sure the Darwin design is suiting others elegantly. I do still play Anglo concertina, but also play the unisonoric English system and find it misunderstood and unfairly disdained for Irish music, but that's a different discussion.

 

[tcabot]

While smaller CBAs sure must fit somebody's purpose I think they are not in the same category as the diatonics.
With the diatonics you chop off all the "unneccessary" stuff and you leave the most important notes & chords, arranged in a very ergonomic manner. While you lose the ability to play in any key, you gain a lot for the remaining capabilities - i.e. certain things that it's designed for are very easy to play. For instance, playing arpeggios as fast as you want is so easy, you can do it the moment you pick up the box for the first time. Good luck doing that on a CBA (esp 3-row) without months of studying and regular (daily) practice.
If you castrate a CBA, you lose a lot of a full-sized CBA capabilities but I don't see what you gain from musical point of view apart from perhaps very slight improvement in bellows articulation. Smaller & lighter box - yes.

 

[nico79]

I have been plaing diatonic for a while. Playing traditionnal music...then I wanted to play all kind of world music. So I wanted to keep a diatonic with all notes...which is not diatonic anymore.
And then I wasted so much time and energy with these spaceships "diatonic" accordions with 3 rows-keyboards from "milleret pignol" or "heim", I had the mas from castagnari, I loved the handry from them too, I tried the serafini's but it totally blocked me in my progression in music.
At the end I switched to a 5 rows chromatic button accordion.....what a wonderful world !!!
For the major scale: one path to know, the same in all tonalities just have to change the starting note....in the world of diatonic accordion we are speaking of 36 pathes to know each tonality in push, pull and pull-push....and with notes missing in push as I remember.

 

[tcabot]

@nico79 funny, I am on an exactly reverse path it seems.

 

[tcabot]

in the world of diatonic accordion we are speaking of 36 pathes to know each tonality in push

Surely, just 1 pattern and 36 accordions in different keys will do the job much better

 

[nico79]

I am still very angry because of this waste of time.
I see so many beginners thinking that the small diatonic accordion is far more simple to learn.....no !!! it is just smaller.
Actually it makes me think of my car radio sony with 3 buttons...It seems simple to use .... well yes: to turn down the volume you press 3 times the big button ,once the small and twice the medium and all sorts of pathes to know !!! I now love my big car radio with a button dedicated to each function.
In the end, I know diatonic accordion is great, but to play what it was designed for...traditional music in one appropriate tonality

 

[tcabot]

I think both instruments have their pros and cons, although I've only been playing with the diatonic for a week, so we'll see how it develops.
It sounds like you were trying to get the diatonic to turn tricks that it was really not designed for.

A big radio is great, but you might soon find that you need a bigger car to accommodate the radio. Also it costs more than the car itself. And a button for each function is great until you don't use the car for a week or two, then come back to it having forgotten what each one of those 400 buttons does. And at the end of the day, they are both just radios - neither of them can be turned into supercomputers to mine bitcoins.

 

[billyboy]

wow - so much i do not know. Still trying to figure out the nomenclature, different types of BA's and their different systems. i really appreciate everyone's views on this - gives me stuff to think about that i would not have thought of, and get the benefit of your experiences.

and to play 'world' music, including ITM, it seems a box that has enough bass buttons for all notes of the octave (with bass and chord and a stop to remove thirds) and enough treble buttons to minimize too much push/pull and ability to play at least most of the partial chords. or am i way off base?

 

[tcabot]

I don't see what stops you from playing "world" music with just 8 standard basses, even without third stops (or constantly switching them off, which is also an option I haven't explored yet). Sometimes you skip a chord, sometimes you can augment a left hand bass with a right hand chord.
A very long time ago I used to toy with the blues harp, so I guess I'm no stranger to the concept of not having all notes at my disposal.

Melodeon is a very limited instrument, so even if you bolt on a stradella onto a G/C/F box, your right hand side will be limited to half a dozen playable keys at best. Just like nico said, these boxes have been originally designed to play in 1-2 keys.
The extra bass selection needs to fit your repertoire, but you don't currently have one.
Neither have I, so I just went for a Club box because there are truckloads of them being sold very cheap in Germany, so you get a huge amount of box for very little money.
I am pretty sure that I would like more basses (or at least a thirds stop) in the future, but I have no idea which ones.

If you are considering buying a costalotti, make sure you listen to it in person before you buy, because a high price tag does not guarantee that you personally will like the timbre or that it will suit your idea of what sounds should be coming out of a squeezebox.

 

[SteveBox]

If there was one ideal accordion design, we would all be playing those, but nobody seems to have invented that yet. They are all compromises in various ways, but then so are all musical instruments.

For ITM and some other folk styles, a diatonic has great efficiency of fingering (and, wow, there are two different notes on each button!), making it easier to play those very fast tunes, but has severe limitations for other types of music. Despite the limitations, there is a lot of great music you can play on a diatonic, but not everything. Sometimes, limitations are good.

A chromatic instrument is more universal for playing in all styles and all keys, but it may be at a disadvantage for ITM and other folk styles. On the other hand, there are PA players in ITM that seem to play as fast as on any diatonic. (Not so many CBAs in ITM.) So, with practice, I think you can make a chromatic instrument work for anything.

If I were buying a diatonic, I would seriously consider getting one with a Darwin chromatic bass. These are becoming more popular, and it eliminates the restrictions of the conventional diatonic bass.

What you choose really depends on what kind of music you want to play, what appeals to you, and what musicians you most admire and want to emulate. There are some musicians that play both chromatic and diatonic instruments well. So you can do both if you are dedicated enough. However, it takes many years to master an instrument, so don't bite off too much when you are just starting out.